LTL said the researchers concealed the fact that some or all of the patients involved in their studies had been exposed to asbestos from other sources.
If that's true, it doesn't look good for the researchers.
But at the same time, J&J has to hold some responsibility for having their "asbestos-contaminated consumer talc products" on store shelves!
On the one hand sure, that's an issue. On the other hand, who hasn't been in contact with asbestos in one way or the other. Asbestos has been banned for many use cases but it is still widely in circulation. It's a bit like asking for people who have never been exposed to smoking.
And it should be pretty easy to get a group of people with same level of asbestos exposure who haven't used J&J's talc and compare the cancer % between the groups. That's where J&J should be focusing if they knew they were in the right.
But surprise, this is probably just throwing everything to discredit science.
And it should be pretty easy to get a group of people with same level of asbestos exposure who haven’t used J&J’s talc and compare the cancer % between the groups. That’s where J&J should be focusing if they knew they were in the right.
Yes, that's how I'd do it.
Perhaps researchers did do this, and found that there was no difference, but decided not to publish that.
Who knows? But it sounds like J&J is confident that they can prove that researchers were hiding facts, or else that's an incredibly pointed accusation!
I say this as someone who hates corn starch based powder and goes out of his way to ensure his family jewels only receive the most succulent of asbestos/talc powders.
I hope J&J are right. But I am extremely skeptical. I also don't like the chilling effect, as others have pointed out. Finally, they could be just trying to win in the court of public opinion. Never forget McDonalds hot coffee case.
Yes, that’s how I’d do it.
Materialistic conditions, we've been mentioning those words for 150 years.
If you were in a position where "I'd do it", that means you'd be a high officer at J&J, you'd be a billionaire, or someone who loses their job if they don't obey the billionaire. If you're the employee you care about your job, or you get fired and someone else obeys them anyway, if you're the billionaire you only care about your money
In the context of a researcher, “that's how I'd do it” is basically for scientific integrity and due diligence in the methodology and design of the study.
I'd also add a control group who has never been exposed to talc or other known sources of asbestos to really be thorough.
But I get what you're saying, and it's sad that anyone would be in a position where making good choices would get them in trouble.
Not a lawyer but do they have anything to lose with this suit? (Other than money spent in the lawsuit that is.)
Because these headlines might change few minds, that J&J isn't that bad. Maybe it's worth it as a marketing cost, idk.
Not a lawyer but do they have anything to lose with this suit?
If they make the accusation and lose, it would also be pretty bad for them. First, they would likely need to compensate the researchers for defamation, and second, they would look even worse to shareholders.
I don't know, but it's an interesting lawsuit.
Yeah maybe I've been watching too much Succession so I think this is just the play here lol.
Off-topic, but is it a good show? I'm looking to add another show to my evening wind down. LOL
It's an incredible show but I can see it not being everyone's cup of tea. It's a bit depressing or absolute joy if you enjoy seeing the 0.1% squirm but either way it's interesting, unique and doesn't waste your time. And there's a comical relief but it doesn't offset the drama.
Perhaps researchers did do this, and found that there was no difference, but decided not to publish that.
Well hey if we are just gonna play “what if everything is a conspiracy” then maybe researchers found that Johnson and Johnson talc powder was actually sourced from Proxima Centauri but decided not to publish that little trade secret.
My old school had it in the walls, my father's workshop had it in the rooftop, in the chimney insulation, etc. I'm pretty sure I haven't been in danger as I haven't built or torn anything of those down, but I for sure have been in contact.
I'm glad it hasn't affected you and yours.
But the fact is that it does affect people.
Just to give anecdotes some empirical backing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbestos
It really depends on the type of study it was, and what these sources of asbestos were supposed to have been.
If they were doing a comparison study, so long as the control group was exposed to asbestos in similar amounts and in similar environments, it's still a strong finding. J&J shouting "they were exposed to other asbestos!" would just be an empty attack on the researchers' characters, and an attempt to falsely discredit them to an uncritical and uneducated public.
Things do seem to be a bit more complicated than that, though, as these are post-hoc investigations with no control. That said, it looks like they tried to do their due diligence to filter out participants who had known environmental exposure to asbestos. If some of them lied or mis-remembered, then it's up to J&J to show that the researchers were negligent or operating in bad faith.
That's going to be a pretty big hurdle to climb. I don't believe they actually intend to climb it.
The fact that the researchers asked about environmental during recruitment, plus the fact that J&J is only claiming that a small handful of people involved in the study were exposed to other sources of asbestos, really shows this for what it is: An attempt to scare researchers away from doing research, and especially from agreeing to be provide expert testimony in lawsuits.
One of the defendants here even has a new paper out this past January that includes patients with known environmental exposure to asbestos, and they show that cumulative exposure from all sources matters. Including exposure from talc:
Conclusion
For individuals with exposure to asbestos through cosmetic talc usage and additional alternate sources, all exposures contribute to the development of mesothelioma. Published case reports and case series have identified over 100 individuals whose sole exposure to asbestos was through cosmetic talcum powder usage.
This finding basically cuts J&J's apparent argument off at the knees, and was published months before they ever filed suit. They'd have been aware of it at the time of filing. They don't seem to have anything here. Just the opportunity to try and make their detractors look as dirty as they are in the eyes of people who haven't read any of the research.
The wording is that “researchers concealed”, which is what they need to prove.
Keep in mind, it was that same research that cost them billions of dollars and tens of thousands of lawsuits, so anything to invalidate the original papers is going to benefit them.
This finding basically cuts J&J’s apparent argument off at the knees
It might be quite the opposite! The study itself concludes that "for individuals with mixed exposures to asbestos, all exposures should be considered".
If J&J is saying what I think they are saying, then the researchers made these products look more harmful than they were, and included people who would have been harmed by other exposure to asbestos but concealed that fact in the study.
Either way, J&J did a horrible thing by having asbestos-laden products in the market. I'm not on their side at all, but I also don't like bad science, so the outcome of this lawsuit will interest me regardless of who wins.
It might be quite the opposite! The study itself concludes that “for individuals with mixed exposures to asbestos, all exposures should be considered”.
Yes, but the study still shows that people with no environmental exposure still got cancer. It's still explicitly stating that talc exposure is asbestos exposure. If J&J's argument is that these researchers made their product look more dangerous than it is by including people with environmental asbestos exposure in their studies -- whether by accident, or for nefarious purposes -- and therefore creating a false link between talc and cancer, this paper side-steps that issue entirely by including people with and without known exposure, and showing that talc exposure is equivalent to environmental exposure.
If J&J is saying what I think they are saying, then the researchers made these products look more harmful than they were, and included people who would have been harmed by other exposure to asbestos but concealed that fact in the study.
Proving that they concealed this information would be difficult, I think, though it would be devastating not only to their bank accounts, but to their careers more generally. Emory, Maddox, and Kradin's study explicitly states:
One hundred forty subjects with documented exposures to cosmetic talc were initially reviewed. Exposures were identified through sworn deposition testimonies and answers to sworn interrogatories provided from subjects, parents, and spouses. Sixty-five subjects were excluded due to recalled occupational or paraoccupational exposures to other sources of asbestos.
So, that wouldn't even be a lie of omission. It would be straight academic malpractice. Their academic careers would be over.
Yes, but the study still shows that people with no environmental exposure still got cancer.
There's no denying that asbestos in talc products cause cancer, but the argument is "to what extent"?
For instance, why doesn't the study have a control group (i.e. no talc and no other exposure to asbestos)? That would at least give some idea of the risks from using talc compared to no talc use.
The way the study is set up, it's like comparing smokers who had a pack a day vs those who had 1.5 packs a day. Where are the non-smokers?
It seems that the loser in this case would come out severely damaged: on one hand, you've got shareholders and a possible countersuit for defamation, and on the other hand you have a career ending outcome. I would hate to be either party!
I’m betting one dude in the study renovates his house and he had asbestos containing outside walls or something and now J&J is making a show of it.
We shall see, but I wouldn’t be surprised this is more of an intimidation tactic than anything.
It's a pretty wild allegation. They would have to have known about the other sources of exposure and deliberately withheld that information. Even if the patients had had some other exposure, it's even less likely that the doctors would have known about it, and their study will have been designed as well as practicable to find out.
You don’t have to have merit to file a lawsuit. You can try to intimidate or bleed a defendant out.
But this is also how you end up with stuff blowing up in your face spectacularly.
My favourite example of this is when McDonalds sued Irish burger chain SuperMac's for trademark infringement, only to lose their entire trademark for Big Mac's across all of Europe.
If that's true, it doesn't look good for the researchers.
But at the same time, J&J has to hold some responsibility for having their "asbestos-contaminated consumer talc products" on store shelves!
On the one hand sure, that's an issue. On the other hand, who hasn't been in contact with asbestos in one way or the other. Asbestos has been banned for many use cases but it is still widely in circulation. It's a bit like asking for people who have never been exposed to smoking.
And it should be pretty easy to get a group of people with same level of asbestos exposure who haven't used J&J's talc and compare the cancer % between the groups. That's where J&J should be focusing if they knew they were in the right.
But surprise, this is probably just throwing everything to discredit science.
Yes, that's how I'd do it.
Perhaps researchers did do this, and found that there was no difference, but decided not to publish that.
Who knows? But it sounds like J&J is confident that they can prove that researchers were hiding facts, or else that's an incredibly pointed accusation!
I say this as someone who hates corn starch based powder and goes out of his way to ensure his family jewels only receive the most succulent of asbestos/talc powders.
I hope J&J are right. But I am extremely skeptical. I also don't like the chilling effect, as others have pointed out. Finally, they could be just trying to win in the court of public opinion. Never forget McDonalds hot coffee case.
Materialistic conditions, we've been mentioning those words for 150 years.
If you were in a position where "I'd do it", that means you'd be a high officer at J&J, you'd be a billionaire, or someone who loses their job if they don't obey the billionaire. If you're the employee you care about your job, or you get fired and someone else obeys them anyway, if you're the billionaire you only care about your money
In the context of a researcher, “that's how I'd do it” is basically for scientific integrity and due diligence in the methodology and design of the study.
I'd also add a control group who has never been exposed to talc or other known sources of asbestos to really be thorough.
But I get what you're saying, and it's sad that anyone would be in a position where making good choices would get them in trouble.
Not a lawyer but do they have anything to lose with this suit? (Other than money spent in the lawsuit that is.)
Because these headlines might change few minds, that J&J isn't that bad. Maybe it's worth it as a marketing cost, idk.
If they make the accusation and lose, it would also be pretty bad for them. First, they would likely need to compensate the researchers for defamation, and second, they would look even worse to shareholders.
I don't know, but it's an interesting lawsuit.
Yeah maybe I've been watching too much Succession so I think this is just the play here lol.
Off-topic, but is it a good show? I'm looking to add another show to my evening wind down. LOL
It's an incredible show but I can see it not being everyone's cup of tea. It's a bit depressing or absolute joy if you enjoy seeing the 0.1% squirm but either way it's interesting, unique and doesn't waste your time. And there's a comical relief but it doesn't offset the drama.
Well hey if we are just gonna play “what if everything is a conspiracy” then maybe researchers found that Johnson and Johnson talc powder was actually sourced from Proxima Centauri but decided not to publish that little trade secret.
My old school had it in the walls, my father's workshop had it in the rooftop, in the chimney insulation, etc. I'm pretty sure I haven't been in danger as I haven't built or torn anything of those down, but I for sure have been in contact.
I'm glad it hasn't affected you and yours.
But the fact is that it does affect people.
Just to give anecdotes some empirical backing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbestos
It really depends on the type of study it was, and what these sources of asbestos were supposed to have been.
If they were doing a comparison study, so long as the control group was exposed to asbestos in similar amounts and in similar environments, it's still a strong finding. J&J shouting "they were exposed to other asbestos!" would just be an empty attack on the researchers' characters, and an attempt to falsely discredit them to an uncritical and uneducated public.
Things do seem to be a bit more complicated than that, though, as these are post-hoc investigations with no control. That said, it looks like they tried to do their due diligence to filter out participants who had known environmental exposure to asbestos. If some of them lied or mis-remembered, then it's up to J&J to show that the researchers were negligent or operating in bad faith.
That's going to be a pretty big hurdle to climb. I don't believe they actually intend to climb it.
The fact that the researchers asked about environmental during recruitment, plus the fact that J&J is only claiming that a small handful of people involved in the study were exposed to other sources of asbestos, really shows this for what it is: An attempt to scare researchers away from doing research, and especially from agreeing to be provide expert testimony in lawsuits.
One of the defendants here even has a new paper out this past January that includes patients with known environmental exposure to asbestos, and they show that cumulative exposure from all sources matters. Including exposure from talc:
This finding basically cuts J&J's apparent argument off at the knees, and was published months before they ever filed suit. They'd have been aware of it at the time of filing. They don't seem to have anything here. Just the opportunity to try and make their detractors look as dirty as they are in the eyes of people who haven't read any of the research.
The wording is that “researchers concealed”, which is what they need to prove.
Keep in mind, it was that same research that cost them billions of dollars and tens of thousands of lawsuits, so anything to invalidate the original papers is going to benefit them.
It might be quite the opposite! The study itself concludes that "for individuals with mixed exposures to asbestos, all exposures should be considered".
If J&J is saying what I think they are saying, then the researchers made these products look more harmful than they were, and included people who would have been harmed by other exposure to asbestos but concealed that fact in the study.
Either way, J&J did a horrible thing by having asbestos-laden products in the market. I'm not on their side at all, but I also don't like bad science, so the outcome of this lawsuit will interest me regardless of who wins.
Yes, but the study still shows that people with no environmental exposure still got cancer. It's still explicitly stating that talc exposure is asbestos exposure. If J&J's argument is that these researchers made their product look more dangerous than it is by including people with environmental asbestos exposure in their studies -- whether by accident, or for nefarious purposes -- and therefore creating a false link between talc and cancer, this paper side-steps that issue entirely by including people with and without known exposure, and showing that talc exposure is equivalent to environmental exposure.
Proving that they concealed this information would be difficult, I think, though it would be devastating not only to their bank accounts, but to their careers more generally. Emory, Maddox, and Kradin's study explicitly states:
So, that wouldn't even be a lie of omission. It would be straight academic malpractice. Their academic careers would be over.
There's no denying that asbestos in talc products cause cancer, but the argument is "to what extent"?
For instance, why doesn't the study have a control group (i.e. no talc and no other exposure to asbestos)? That would at least give some idea of the risks from using talc compared to no talc use.
The way the study is set up, it's like comparing smokers who had a pack a day vs those who had 1.5 packs a day. Where are the non-smokers?
It seems that the loser in this case would come out severely damaged: on one hand, you've got shareholders and a possible countersuit for defamation, and on the other hand you have a career ending outcome. I would hate to be either party!
I’m betting one dude in the study renovates his house and he had asbestos containing outside walls or something and now J&J is making a show of it.
We shall see, but I wouldn’t be surprised this is more of an intimidation tactic than anything.
It's a pretty wild allegation. They would have to have known about the other sources of exposure and deliberately withheld that information. Even if the patients had had some other exposure, it's even less likely that the doctors would have known about it, and their study will have been designed as well as practicable to find out.
You don’t have to have merit to file a lawsuit. You can try to intimidate or bleed a defendant out.
But this is also how you end up with stuff blowing up in your face spectacularly.
My favourite example of this is when McDonalds sued Irish burger chain SuperMac's for trademark infringement, only to lose their entire trademark for Big Mac's across all of Europe.
That's what makes it do damning. If J&J proves this, it would be a disaster for the researchers.
I'll be very interested in seeing how this plays out.