TERFs taking their gloves off for Imane Khelif
To clarify, the pictured poster Caroline Kwan is an ally, not a TERF. The TERFs referred to in the title are the ones ‘protecting a very specific idea of what a woman is’
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No, it's because men participate in what is effectively an open division and if you want to participate in the protected division and you have traits that even hint at not being protected, you will be scrutinized to remain in the protected division. It's really that simple.
Should we have other protected divisions though? Why don't we have a protected division for people not born with attributes that help them? Making a division aimed at women and then not letting the best women compete in it seems rather dumb and it'd be similar to making a division for men who aren't athletic so they can compete without having to be the best.
We do, we have the Para-Olympics. But, it seems you're conflating being good with being scrutinized. The better you are in a protected class, the more you should be scrutinized to retain the class protection. It does not mean you will be disqualified... You may be the best ever in that protected class.
We could make a lazy couch division if we wanted to. I don't think anyone wants that.
Para-Olympics are divisions for people with disabilities. It's not for people without advantages (and I'm not saying there should be, just posing a hypothetical). If we don't allow the best women to compete because they're too advantaged, doesn't that also imply we should have other divisions for less advantaged people too?
Obviously the woman thing we're seeing is just conservatives policing what the idea of a woman is though. They don't actually care about the women or the sport. They were not watching women's MMA (or whatever the event was) before this happened. It still does bring into consideration what divisions we should have though, and whether women's division actually makes sense to have or if it should be something else, and what that should be. We don't have divisions for socio-economic status despite that playing a large role in most sports. Should we?
Just saying it was another type of protected division. I agree, the men's division is also protected to some degree from PED users. There is no clean solution. I like someone else's post about Heap Problems. It's clear there are naturally occurring classes of athlete, but the lines we draw are arbitrary, and that's just how it is. Just like any other science experiment, we must pick and choose variables that make the most sense, as we cannot infinitely slice.
Sports is full of divisions. Age divisions. Weight divisions. Each sport has its own set of rules based on what gives an advantage in that sport.
I want to see a baseball game played by two teams of people with situs inversus and watch the arguments about if it's still left field
This is a pretty good take, except that the men's division is also protected. Performance enhancing drugs are not allowed, it is not a free-for-all open division.
I don't think anyone thinks the men's and woman's division should be combined because there is no good way to differentiate the difficult place in the middle; this is a classic heap paradox, just because the division between woman and not woman is difficult does not mean it doesn't exist.
Just one example from speed climbing men's WR = 4.74s, woman's WR = 6.06s; the men are 27.8% faster. No one is arguing that men are more dedicated and train more, that they have access to better nutrition or equipment. Men have a natural advantage; combining the divisions would simply mean that no women could possibly get into the top class competition. This maps across ALL sport.
Well, while mostly true, there are always exceptions.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240731-the-sports-where-women-outperform-men
Tldr ultradistance events and some shooting
Interesting.
TIL there are people who swim marathons.
Yes. I think that this is the concern of everyone who is genuinely interested in fair competition. While I'm sure that some people are triggered ( in both directions ) by the transgender debate.
I mentioned in another thread that I think the simple solution to this is to not define divisions by gender, but to simply measure testosterone and have a high-T "open" division and a low-T division. This is where the perceived competitive advantage lies and sidesteps the whole gender issue entirely.
While sensible, is T really the only factor at play here? Once you get into the science where do you draw the line?
Realistically it probably depends on the sport. Y chromosomes, being exposed to certain levels of testosterone in utero (unless one is resistant or unresponsive to the hormone), being exposed to certain levels of testosterone in puberty and maintaining certain levels of testosterone all do things to the body than could effect performance and that's all still mostly just focused on the one hormone. How much each of those things has an impact (if any) is going to depend entirely on the nature of the sport in question.
Should Brittney Griner be tested for testosterone and then forced to play in the NBA if it's too high?
You can't tell how high someone is by measuring testosterone. Maybe you were thinking of the Toblerone test.
Cute weed joke considering it landed her in a horrific Russian prison as a queer woman, but also, I didn't say she was too high.
You're right. Determining what's fair and what isn't is a task non-transphobic scientists should be working on, not something you discuss lightly around a beer at a pub. There needs to be actual research.
Transphobes will probably not like the conclusions of that research, though...
The WNBA is still part of the NBA. She's been playing in the NBA
You know what I mean.
What's funny is that is THE issue we're discussing - misogyny in sports. That the NBA in your mind defaults to "Real Men's Basketball^TM" and women have this little side denominator with their girl basketball.... like no. Be exact if you don't want to be sexist. The NBA is both the men's and women's basketball associations.
What you MEANT was whether Britney should change to the men's division of the NBA.
...or I don't watch basketball and just didn't know that.
Nah, it must be that I hate women.
What do you think the letters in "NBA" stand for?
Interesting apology for your accidental misogyny. Kinda looks like you do hate women.
I know you really want to get angry at someone who doesn't know about basketball and thought that the two groups were "NBA" for men and "WNBA" for women, but that's literally how I have always heard those two divisions named. So call me as hateful as you like, but the truth is I have no idea what to call the men's league now. I've never seen anyone call it MNBA anywhere. Certainly not the press.
Right, because of overwhelming sexism in sports. I don't "hate" you or feel any emotion towards you. I'm pointing out how sexism in sports isn't just the Olympics, it's so pervasive we even see it in things like the colloquial use of the term 'NBA.' If someone is concerned about bigotry in sports, then wouldn't they want to examine other areas? Don't you think - as an ostensible ally - that that's weird too?
I've been accidentally misogynistic too, because we are raised in a society that have given us propaganda to be misogynistic. It's worth it to self examine and apologize when that happens. No one is an angel. Grow up, be humble, and learn.
And your second sentence proves you didn't actually read my post:
What I said:
What you responded:
Plus, I specifically said I had no idea what to call the men's league now and you didn't tell me.
Let me know when you actually read my comment and respond to what I actually said and not what you pretended I said. No wonder you decide people are misogynists when you don't properly read their comments.
Your first sentence called me angry.
You call them the men's NBA. That's pretty clear as we both have referenced it as such.
Wow, it wasn't accidental misogyny then, huh? Like had you known, you would've just done it the same anyway. That's why you lack remorse and are trying to make this combative and paint me in a negative light - it's not about women's rights, it's about your ego and looking like you're so smart on these issues you're above criticism. Cool. I'm sorry I said you were doing it on accident? Like go back and read the comment chain - you're way out of line here if you actually care about women.
You show me a major sport news source that calls them "the men's NBA."
Because I can't find one.
This is sounding like you're just making something up in order to call someone a misogynist.
And what of high testosterone people who are completely testosterone insensitive? Those are the women who have Y chromosomes