West should set its own red lines, not just accept Putin’s, argues veteran diplomat
Former German diplomat Wolfgang Ischinger says Western leaders should be making more threats and be willing to follow them through.
The West should spend less time fretting about Russian President Vladimir Putin's red lines and set its own, says veteran German diplomat Wolfgang Ischinger.
“Russia keeps saying, if you do this, if you cross this or that red line, we might escalate,” said the 78-year-old onetime chairman of the Munich Security Conference. “Why don't we turn this thing around and say to them: ‘We have lines and if you bomb one more civilian building, then you shouldn't be surprised if, say, we deliver Taurus cruise missiles or America allows Ukraine to strike military targets inside Russia’?”
That way the onus will be on Moscow to decide whether to cross the red lines — or face the consequences.
Meanwhile Israel
Red line: no red lines
Response: they have right to defend themself
There is a red line. The west keeps saying over and over again that they must defend themselves within international law.
The problem is that they either ignore the red line or deny that it was ever crossed.
They'll dead ass look you in the eye and tell you that the colour red doesn't exist, without a single fuck given.
It's insane. Shows how much of international politics isn't "Which country benefits from what", but "What levers of decisionmaking are manipulated by whom". A little lobbying and foreign PR goes a long way.
There have been some responses: https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/08/1153656 https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/07/experts-hail-icj-declaration-illegality-israels-presence-occupied
Laws are meaningless if criminals are not held accountable. It doesn't matter that anyone who supports Israel supports fascism — 30% of US voters support fascism. The fact is that as long as the US (and 5 eyes) supports and arms Netanyahu, the genocide will continue; everything they declare to the contrary is nothing more than a virtue signal.
The ICJ and all opposition is meaningless unless they are willing to take collective economic and military action again Israel and its supporters. They will not.
I hope you aren't saying what I think you're saying here.
In any case, the main reason for western support of Israel is the same as the reason for western support of Turkey. Both have obnoxious leadership but both are in key geographic locations, and the value of having them on-side against their neighbours is greater than the value in cutting them loose.
That Israel has established a death grip on American politics since the 1980s?
Gonna press X to doubt. Turkiye controls one of the most vital straits in the world. Israel primarily specializes in antagonizing its neighbors, many of whom are also our close allies, damaging our international reputation, pouring money in to corrupt our domestic political processes (not that we really need help with that, but the corruption becomes more pro-Israel), while murdering American citizens and selling American secrets to our enemies.
And millions in AIPAC money. The Jews control the world conspiracy theory is of course false, but you'd be extremely naive if you think the decades and dollars Usrael spent creating a government and public that's friendly to its interests isn't a big part of the US government's current attitude.
Americans stop making everything about the US challenge (impossible)
You know most other western countries support Israel too, right?
There's Western support and there's what the US does for Israel. No other state gets away with regularly killing US citizens the way Israel does.
They have that right tough. It's just what we are all witnessing goes "a little" further than that.
hard disagree. Maybe if a foreign country wanted to create a Jewish ethnostate it should have set the borders inside its own sovereign lands instead of displacing 300k people it didn't give a shit about and causing an immediate regional war and decades of ongoing conflict?
Maybe then we could consider Israel a real country. Seeing how it didn't go that way? What israel deserves is to dissolve
And in your suggested dissolution of the state of Israel, what happens then? And what happens to the Jews that now live there?
I think if we're following history and making a point we should put new israel on top of your home. No problem right?
That's not an answer to the question though, you are advocating for the dissolution, so let's put it on the table...
If your question wasn't a flippant and dismissive response to my position, then neither was my answer.
No, you made a statement that required a follow up question.. requiring you to elaborate. But I have the feeling that you are answering like this cause you simply refuse to say the quiet part out loud, or are to cowardly to come out and say it. But that's OK. I think most people reading your response get what you mean.
Every accusation is a confession
Sure.. you still are dancing around specifying what your dissolution of the state of Israel would look like.
I'd personally like to see Netanyahu in a small concrete cell in Scheveningen.. just so we're clear.
Im dancing around what i hoped youd eventually figure out: to be clear, i really don't respect your ridiculous red herring)
Go look up red herring, realize how silly you just looked and improve your debate skills.
Elsewhere.
My red herring? You open by making a statement that could easily mean eliminating all Jews and when asked what you mean you refuse to specify (or concoct some kumbaya alternate reality fiction). Instead you blurt that the question is flippant. And now you say red herring as if that somehow absolves you of taking a position that has no basis in reality or a position that just wishes all Jews to dissapear.
The situation in Israël is neither clear cut nor easy. And since one side (Israël) holds all the power I would expect that side to come up with a just and equitable solution that works for Palestinians too.. and that is not what they are currently doing... We see war mongering genocidal idealogs run their campaign of destruction simply because Bibi needs war to stay out of jail. The reason why these right wing extremist settlers are in the Israeli government in turn has its basis in constant shelling of Israel proper. Which continue because Israël refuses to provide their neighbors with an equitable solution and not keep settling the west bank.
Incorrect. Israel should cease to exist ==mean jew elimination no matter how hard or often you say it. Its frankly appalling you dont get this.
Israel should cease to exist. It never should have existed, and what it deserves is dissolution. Your insulting followup "questions" are based on your personal feelings and are a red herring no matter how strong your feelings are.
Seriously, go look up red herring before you forget.
The same thing that happened to the Jews that lived there for millenia before Israel was created, the become normal citizens with no special rights or mandates, and are actually subject to laws intended on keeping all people safe, not just Jews. It worked continuously for millenia through dozens of different ruling states with a half dozen ruling religions, the state of Israel and it's fascism utilizing ng Jewish supremacy as a base ideology fucked that up.
Well, that looks like it ignores reality a bit. That the current state of Israel is doing fucked up stuff atm gets no arguement from me, but it did not happen in a vacuum.
Spouting revisionist nonsense about how equal the Jews where treated all over the world also does not help the situation either. Nor does ignoring the current situation and how if the state where to be dissolved and a new state created in its place that would give all people of the region equal rights and protections.. they would magically all get along.
So again.. what then? What would you suggest?
I mean in many places they were. Raging antisemitism was mostly a European problem. That's why they kept fleeing to Muslim lands.
Uhm.. what? Kept fleeing to Muslim lands? Antisemitism a European thing.. wow.. someone did a number on you man.. I'd suggest you ask for a refund from school.
Uh... What? Yes they kept fleeing to Muslim lands at least learn the history of the people whose Apartheid you're rooting for (not that Israel represents Jews as a whole I know that's not the case). A large fraction of Egyptian Jews, for example, were originally from Spain and were expelled due to the Reconquista, and the first two Aliyahs were European Jews escaping from pogroms to the more tolerant Ottoman empire. Also modern Muslim anti-semitism was, in fact, imported from Europe in the 19th century and strongly intensified due to the conflict with Zionists. Again, learn the history of the people whose Apartheid you're rooting for and the people whose oppression you're rooting for before you make ignorant statements again.
Nothing??? Just put them and Palestinians in the same place and make them create the equal multiethnic democracy Israel said it would but didn't become.
Yeah, we tried that. With the neighboring countries intervening and waging war, and the following wars we ended up here. But this time it will be different.
Uh... What? Israel is, and has always been from the planning phase, a Jewish-dominated settler colony. This is literally why they caused the Nakba. How does that sound like a multiethnic democracy?
The original plans where also a lot smaller and entitled Palestinians to a lot of land and their own state. Neighboring countries and Palestinians would not have it. The region was english ruled because the ottomans sided with Germany in ww1.. they where by definition the baddies. Then WW2 happened. You seem to be cherry picking a lot of stuff that happened over the course of the last 120 years or so for that area.
A lot smaller, but with a lot of the better land and half the Palestinian population. Would you agree to half the people of your country being ruled by an explicitly hostile, foreign people?
Way to move the goalposts... It's a series of own goals compounded by "help" from their friends that landed the Palestinians in this horror. In Turn the current horror now has 3 revisionist antisemites in a trenchcoat using the poor Palestinians as a beard to practice their antisemitism out in the open.