Ah edelman, the consultancy bureau who helps countries prop up their image. This shit is about as believable as Qatar getting to host the world cup on merit. Imagine seeing this graph and thinking hmmm all these countries who have authoritarian and oppressive governments must be really good to their citizens, instead of thinking that people who speak out of line get shafted lmao.
It's bought propaganda. It's like being the shitty student in class who pays a hacker to adjust their grades but instead of something a bit believable asks for an A+. Anyways this shit isn't even meant for the outside world, it's just to affirm to their own people that being oppressed is a-OK.
Which is rich considering he's a well paid software engineer working out of a western Democracy.
Tankies. The world would be so bland without them.
Bro you post hundreds of times a day on here, and it's not even a remotely thought out thesis on society. You're just an imperialist and it's important to call you out on it.
You used so many words to tell us you have no clue what imperialism is bro. Please do keep on adding hilarity to the thread though. It's like having a personal court jester.
I'm so glad I could be of service to you then. I'll consider my contribution valuable and hopefully I can make you laugh here and there.
Could you cut that shit up with him being a "well paid" whatever? Have you even gone into Lemmygrad? Most people there are poor. I live in Argentina, one of the countries with biggest inflation in the world and I don't earn a fucking lot, what's your excuse there? Stop doing personal attacks, try to use a fucking argument otherwise you are being overly aggressive. There are people all over the world, from a lot of countries that your people have fucked up, so fucking use an argument or shut the fuck up because that's not the way to engage with anyone.
As always you need to know how to read a survey like this one.
The top answers are all countries that don't allow doesn't and have a very tight surveillance net. So no surprise in these answers.
Imagine genuinely having convinced yourself that you can't gauge general public opinion in a country like China. Like there's a party operative hiding behind every corner listening. 😂
Don't really need to when you've got facial recognition cameras everywhere. Also guessing they didn't ask the Uyghurs what they think. And regular Chinese folk can't really Google that shit now can they?
Here's a playlist with 2382 interviews with Uyghur people from Xinjiang, saying exactly what they think, enjoy (we both know you won't watch them)
Yeah, it's a total mystery why people in a country where they've seen the most rapid advancements in the standard of living support their government. CPC just hoodwinked everyone by providing them with housing, healthcare, education, and jobs. What they really need to find out about their living conditions is access to US propaganda. Also, why wouldn't they ask Uyghurs what they think. Your propaganda diet must've convinced you that Uyghurs don't support the government?
Luckily for us, AP went to interview Uyghurs to see what they think:
On a government sponsored tour, officials took us to meet Mamatjan Ahat, a truck driver, who declared he was back to drinking and smoking because he had recanted religion and extremism after a stint at one of Xinjiang’s infamous “training centers”.
“It made me more open-minded,” Ahat told reporters, as officials listened in.
It's really difficult debating you because it seems you're just wilfully ignoring shit.
What shit am I ignoring, be specific. Are you trying to claim that freedom from religious extremism is a negative for people of Xinjiang?
You're trying to claim that China forcing people into dropping their religion and then parading them to people on a government guided tour is somehow a good thing.
If this really is a benevolent thing, how about some transparency in what's happening to these people?
If you have a government guided tour, you should be noting what you're not seeing and don't trust what you do see.
China isn't doing anything of the sort. What they're doing is fighting religious extremism, the sort of which no western country would ever tolerate. It's interesting how the same people who purport to support human rights are pretty comfortable with theocracy when it suits their geopolitical interests.
The reality is that US has been funding and arming extremists in Xinjiang trying to replicate Afghanistan model when they toppled a socialist government there. Don't take my word for it though, here's George Bush's chief of staff openly saying that US wants to destabilize the region, and NED recently admitting to funding Uyghur separatism for the past 16 years on their own official Twitter page. An ex-CIA operative details US operations radicalizing and training terrorists in the region in this book. Here's an excerpt:
Throughout the 1990s, hundreds of Uyghurs were transported to Afghanistan by the CIA for training in guerilla warfare by the mujahideen. When they returned to Xinjiang, they formed the East Turkistan Islamic Movement and came under Catli's expert direction. Graham Fuller, CIA superspy, offered this explanation for radicalizing the Chinese Muslims:
The policy of guiding the evolution of Islam and of helping them [Muslims] against our adversaries worked marvelously well in Afghanistan and against the Red Army. The doctrines can still be used to destabilize what remains of Russian power, and especially to counter Chinese influence in Central Asia.
US has been stoking terrorism in the region while they've been running a propaganda campaign against China in the west.
Lmao so basically there is absolutely no way to make you change your mind because you will invent whatever you want. If you don't see it, you will just assume it exists and is hidden from you?
This is a wild way to behave. You live in a world that is entirely invented and evidence-free. Any evidence to the contrary is just dismissed as a clever act for the sake of deceiving you.
No, I look at the evidence provided, speculate about what's missing, and then ask why it's missing.
For example, in some of the videos I've seen of N. Korea, there's a certain level of hospitality, but no other customers aside from the visitors. Visitors aren't allowed to go out on their own. There are wide streets with few cars. And so on. So what is N. Korea hiding?
What I'm looking for are answers to questions like:
what exactly is happening to the Uigurs? Is it consensual? How can I verify?
are people allowed to disagree publicly with the government? Why or why not? How can I independently verify?
And so on. I'm not going to just blindly accept anything any government states, I want independently verifiable information.
No, I look at the evidence provided, speculate about what’s missing, and then ask why it’s missing.
But that's the problem. You're just speculating.
If I visit america and then speculate that everything I'm seeing is actually fake and made up by an entire country of fucking actors purely for the benefit of pretending america is something it's not you would call me utterly deranged.
Is it the best place in the world to live? Fuck no it's not. Its been embargoed and the subject of economic warfare for decades, not to mention the literal genocide of one fifth of its population that the US performed. Its behaviour towards the US should not at all be surprising given this history, they never want to see it happen again. Imagine if 1 in 5 of every person you know was firebombed and 99% of the buildings in your country were razed to the ground and then some white anglo fucks on the internet just make up shit about you over and over and over again.
what exactly is happening to the Uigurs? Is it consensual? How can I verify?
Now? Fuck all is happening this ended like 2 fucking years ago and liberals are still going on about it. What did happen? A very serious crackdown and education program that involved mandatory schools where people deemed "at risk" (of becoming islamic extremists) were forced into a 5 day per week (they went home on weekends) education program.
Shit was very serious, terrorism was a real and major problem, bombings were happening once or twice a month and shit was seriously ramping up. This was being imported over the border with Afghanistan. This all stopped after the program.
They were then shut down. The US then proceeded to get out of afghanistan, as it no longer had any reason to be there. Here is a video of Col Lawrence Wilkerson saying that the cia were planning to do just that., keep in mind this man was Chief of Staff to the Secretary of State at the time of this video, which predates the explosion of uighur content online. Prior to the US suddenly having such an interesting in the rights of Uighurs it is also notable that the US was literally bombing them.
are people allowed to disagree publicly with the government? Why or why not? How can I independently verify?
Sure. Average people do all the time just look it up on Weibo. You could also just look up the culture of protest in the country (extremely frequent, activism is high, just not activism to literally overthrow the country). Gov does not give a shit about whether the average person disagrees with the government on various issues unless you happen to be a celebrity or millionaire/billionaire. The government cracks down extremely hard on the bourgeoisie and its representatives.
If you're looking for more realistic ways to interpret the DPRK then I think you should look at things like food security figures, improvements in agriculture, or for living standards look at things like the smartphone market and percentage of ownership. 50% or more of the country owns a smartphone, 6-8 million have subscriptions to services. This kind of figure will give you something closer to an idea of what reality is without the mess of propaganda from all sides. It's the kind of figure you can relate more closely to yourself, and to where western countries were 10-15 years ago. Here in the UK for example 2003-2005 we had roughly 50% smartphone ownership in the country.
This is your source, so desperate are you to spread good news about authoritarian regimes you don't even check your sources
One of the protesters, ex-Edelman employee Lucy Bridgewater, quit due to the agency’s ongoing relationship with oil majors and the impending climate catastrophe. Lucy said: “Edelman is a fine one to talk in its Trust Barometer about politicians misleading the public, when Edelman itself has been misleading us all for decades – first as lobbyists for the tobacco industry, and now the fossil fuel industry. Edelman uses its profound understanding of trust to manipulate public perception of our most pressing issues. We desperately need the great thinking and fresh ideas of our creative industries channelled into solving our greatest challenges – not actively and knowingly make them worse.”
You live in an authoritarian regime bud. No good news to find about it though.
You live in western democracy, yet crave living under an authoritarian regime, whatever floats your boat I guess
I live in a western authoritarian regime where the government works in the interest of a small capital owning class. And I crave living in a country where the working class holds power. I guess boots aren't gonna lick themselves though, so capitalists are lucky to have people like you around.
Citizens of authoritarian countries often trust their governments more than those in liberal democracies. This apparent paradox is easily explained by the tight control these governments maintain over what people can see and hear. Since Tiananmen the Chinese government has ramped up it's campaign to eradicate any opinions that are contrary to the government line, and now a whole generation has grown up in this new, hermetically sealed environment.
It's impossible to systematically lie to an entire country's population about the country itself. It's never happened anywhere on Earth and will never do so with current technology. It is however trivial to lie about other countries, which I like to always keep in mind. Think for a moment what reason a Chinese person would even have to dislike their government, when they are clearly doing a good job and actually solving their problems. Even the victims of Tiananmen weren't those often talked-about "pro-Democracy" students, most were anti-liberalization communist worker protestors.
Citizens of authoritarian countries often trust their governments more than those in liberal democracies. This apparent paradox is easily explained by the tight control these governments maintain over what people can see and hear
Your argument was falsified by Harvard a 30 year long study they did on Chinese approval of their government. They found that 95% of the country approved of the government and they specifically say in that study that it is NOT to do with this magical orientalist brainwashing that you claim it is caused by but instead it is caused by the fact that the Chinese population sees constantly improving conditions in their lives. The study also states that their opinions of the government change negatively when conditions decline, just that it doesn't happen often.
the attitudes of Chinese citizens appear to respond (both positively and negatively) to real changes in their material well-being,
Although state censorship and propaganda are widespread, our survey reveals that citizen perceptions of governmental performance respond most to real, measurable changes in individuals’ material well-being
You need to readjust your thinking. The fact of the matter is that the popularity of the government in China has nothing to do with the racist claim of brainwashing and control as you claim. And your own research institutions say that themselves. Nobody here can call Harvard biased in favour of the CPC. Nor can they fault a 30 year long completely independent study, literally the longest study of its kind.
Science completely contradicts the racist claims that you are simply regurgitating from reddit comment sections.
The reality of the popularity of the CPC among the Chinese people is that it has improved the lives of the people by incredible amounts, and continues to do so.
Buddy, entire books have been written on how western oligarch owned media works with western regimes to manipulate public opinion. Here are a couple you should read:
Thing is that no amount of propaganda can counter the actual lived experience of the people in a country. This is why there is growing social unrest despite the west having the most sophisticated and best funded propaganda in the world. People can see that their lives are constantly getting worse and they've lost trust in the system and the media.
If people's material conditions in China were declining the same way they are in the west, then people in China would lose faith in their system too. Yet, the opposite is happening because people are seeing their live improve drastically with each an every decade.
massive deposits of lib cope in the comments, we can keep the copium factory working at max capacity for years at this rate. keep up the good work!
Ah edelman, the consultancy bureau who helps countries prop up their image. This shit is about as believable as Qatar getting to host the world cup on merit. Imagine seeing this graph and thinking hmmm all these countries who have authoritarian and oppressive governments must be really good to their citizens, instead of thinking that people who speak out of line get shafted lmao.
It's bought propaganda. It's like being the shitty student in class who pays a hacker to adjust their grades but instead of something a bit believable asks for an A+. Anyways this shit isn't even meant for the outside world, it's just to affirm to their own people that being oppressed is a-OK.
and free labor on the part of @yogthos@lemmy.ml to promote it.
Which is rich considering he's a well paid software engineer working out of a western Democracy.
Tankies. The world would be so bland without them.
Bro you post hundreds of times a day on here, and it's not even a remotely thought out thesis on society. You're just an imperialist and it's important to call you out on it.
You used so many words to tell us you have no clue what imperialism is bro. Please do keep on adding hilarity to the thread though. It's like having a personal court jester.
I'm so glad I could be of service to you then. I'll consider my contribution valuable and hopefully I can make you laugh here and there.
Could you cut that shit up with him being a "well paid" whatever? Have you even gone into Lemmygrad? Most people there are poor. I live in Argentina, one of the countries with biggest inflation in the world and I don't earn a fucking lot, what's your excuse there? Stop doing personal attacks, try to use a fucking argument otherwise you are being overly aggressive. There are people all over the world, from a lot of countries that your people have fucked up, so fucking use an argument or shut the fuck up because that's not the way to engage with anyone.
As always you need to know how to read a survey like this one. The top answers are all countries that don't allow doesn't and have a very tight surveillance net. So no surprise in these answers.
Imagine genuinely having convinced yourself that you can't gauge general public opinion in a country like China. Like there's a party operative hiding behind every corner listening. 😂
Don't really need to when you've got facial recognition cameras everywhere. Also guessing they didn't ask the Uyghurs what they think. And regular Chinese folk can't really Google that shit now can they?
Here's a playlist with 2382 interviews with Uyghur people from Xinjiang, saying exactly what they think, enjoy (we both know you won't watch them)
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkbOIKUddMBtp0_xEFqn4zey48kkgJq5w
Yeah, it's a total mystery why people in a country where they've seen the most rapid advancements in the standard of living support their government. CPC just hoodwinked everyone by providing them with housing, healthcare, education, and jobs. What they really need to find out about their living conditions is access to US propaganda. Also, why wouldn't they ask Uyghurs what they think. Your propaganda diet must've convinced you that Uyghurs don't support the government?
Luckily for us, AP went to interview Uyghurs to see what they think:
Continuing on
It's really difficult debating you because it seems you're just wilfully ignoring shit.
What shit am I ignoring, be specific. Are you trying to claim that freedom from religious extremism is a negative for people of Xinjiang?
You're trying to claim that China forcing people into dropping their religion and then parading them to people on a government guided tour is somehow a good thing.
If this really is a benevolent thing, how about some transparency in what's happening to these people?
If you have a government guided tour, you should be noting what you're not seeing and don't trust what you do see.
China isn't doing anything of the sort. What they're doing is fighting religious extremism, the sort of which no western country would ever tolerate. It's interesting how the same people who purport to support human rights are pretty comfortable with theocracy when it suits their geopolitical interests.
Here's an interview with a son of imam killed in Xinjiang which makes it pretty clear that religious people are a target just like everyone else https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-19/Son-of-imam-assassinated-in-Kashgar-s-2014-mosque-attack-speaks-out-RqNiyrcRuo/index.html
Here's another interview with Imams https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/on-eid-xinjiang-imams-defend-china-against-u-s-criticism-1.5425967
A Pakistani journalist who has been all over Xinjiang (which borders Pakistan) claims that western media reports on "atrocities" are lies. https://dailytimes.com.pk/723317/exposing-the-occidents-baseless-lies-about-xinjiang/
Western reports on Xinjiang don't support the lurid narrative you're pushing either
Representatives of Arab majority nations actually wrote a letter to the UN in support of China https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/3853509?ln=en
The reality is that US has been funding and arming extremists in Xinjiang trying to replicate Afghanistan model when they toppled a socialist government there. Don't take my word for it though, here's George Bush's chief of staff openly saying that US wants to destabilize the region, and NED recently admitting to funding Uyghur separatism for the past 16 years on their own official Twitter page. An ex-CIA operative details US operations radicalizing and training terrorists in the region in this book. Here's an excerpt:
US has been stoking terrorism in the region while they've been running a propaganda campaign against China in the west.
And of course, before US started weaponizing terrorists they themselves were fighting these people https://www.mintpressnews.com/us-was-at-war-uyghur-terrorists-now-claims-etim-doesnt-exist/276916/
Lmao so basically there is absolutely no way to make you change your mind because you will invent whatever you want. If you don't see it, you will just assume it exists and is hidden from you?
This is a wild way to behave. You live in a world that is entirely invented and evidence-free. Any evidence to the contrary is just dismissed as a clever act for the sake of deceiving you.
No, I look at the evidence provided, speculate about what's missing, and then ask why it's missing.
For example, in some of the videos I've seen of N. Korea, there's a certain level of hospitality, but no other customers aside from the visitors. Visitors aren't allowed to go out on their own. There are wide streets with few cars. And so on. So what is N. Korea hiding?
What I'm looking for are answers to questions like:
And so on. I'm not going to just blindly accept anything any government states, I want independently verifiable information.
But that's the problem. You're just speculating.
If I visit america and then speculate that everything I'm seeing is actually fake and made up by an entire country of fucking actors purely for the benefit of pretending america is something it's not you would call me utterly deranged.
Is it the best place in the world to live? Fuck no it's not. Its been embargoed and the subject of economic warfare for decades, not to mention the literal genocide of one fifth of its population that the US performed. Its behaviour towards the US should not at all be surprising given this history, they never want to see it happen again. Imagine if 1 in 5 of every person you know was firebombed and 99% of the buildings in your country were razed to the ground and then some white anglo fucks on the internet just make up shit about you over and over and over again.
Now? Fuck all is happening this ended like 2 fucking years ago and liberals are still going on about it. What did happen? A very serious crackdown and education program that involved mandatory schools where people deemed "at risk" (of becoming islamic extremists) were forced into a 5 day per week (they went home on weekends) education program.
Shit was very serious, terrorism was a real and major problem, bombings were happening once or twice a month and shit was seriously ramping up. This was being imported over the border with Afghanistan. This all stopped after the program.
They were then shut down. The US then proceeded to get out of afghanistan, as it no longer had any reason to be there. Here is a video of Col Lawrence Wilkerson saying that the cia were planning to do just that., keep in mind this man was Chief of Staff to the Secretary of State at the time of this video, which predates the explosion of uighur content online. Prior to the US suddenly having such an interesting in the rights of Uighurs it is also notable that the US was literally bombing them.
Sure. Average people do all the time just look it up on Weibo. You could also just look up the culture of protest in the country (extremely frequent, activism is high, just not activism to literally overthrow the country). Gov does not give a shit about whether the average person disagrees with the government on various issues unless you happen to be a celebrity or millionaire/billionaire. The government cracks down extremely hard on the bourgeoisie and its representatives.
If you're looking for more realistic ways to interpret the DPRK then I think you should look at things like food security figures, improvements in agriculture, or for living standards look at things like the smartphone market and percentage of ownership. 50% or more of the country owns a smartphone, 6-8 million have subscriptions to services. This kind of figure will give you something closer to an idea of what reality is without the mess of propaganda from all sides. It's the kind of figure you can relate more closely to yourself, and to where western countries were 10-15 years ago. Here in the UK for example 2003-2005 we had roughly 50% smartphone ownership in the country.
This is your source, so desperate are you to spread good news about authoritarian regimes you don't even check your sources
https://extinctionrebellion.uk/2023/03/07/extinction-rebellion-tells-major-pr-company-edelman-to-tellthetruth-about-fossil-fuel-ties/
You live in an authoritarian regime bud. No good news to find about it though.
You live in western democracy, yet crave living under an authoritarian regime, whatever floats your boat I guess
I live in a western authoritarian regime where the government works in the interest of a small capital owning class. And I crave living in a country where the working class holds power. I guess boots aren't gonna lick themselves though, so capitalists are lucky to have people like you around.
Citizens of authoritarian countries often trust their governments more than those in liberal democracies. This apparent paradox is easily explained by the tight control these governments maintain over what people can see and hear. Since Tiananmen the Chinese government has ramped up it's campaign to eradicate any opinions that are contrary to the government line, and now a whole generation has grown up in this new, hermetically sealed environment.
It's impossible to systematically lie to an entire country's population about the country itself. It's never happened anywhere on Earth and will never do so with current technology. It is however trivial to lie about other countries, which I like to always keep in mind. Think for a moment what reason a Chinese person would even have to dislike their government, when they are clearly doing a good job and actually solving their problems. Even the victims of Tiananmen weren't those often talked-about "pro-Democracy" students, most were anti-liberalization communist worker protestors.
Your argument was falsified by Harvard a 30 year long study they did on Chinese approval of their government. They found that 95% of the country approved of the government and they specifically say in that study that it is NOT to do with this magical orientalist brainwashing that you claim it is caused by but instead it is caused by the fact that the Chinese population sees constantly improving conditions in their lives. The study also states that their opinions of the government change negatively when conditions decline, just that it doesn't happen often.
Article on the study: https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/
The study: https://ash.harvard.edu/files/ash/files/final_policy_brief_7.6.2020.pdf
Quotes:
You need to readjust your thinking. The fact of the matter is that the popularity of the government in China has nothing to do with the racist claim of brainwashing and control as you claim. And your own research institutions say that themselves. Nobody here can call Harvard biased in favour of the CPC. Nor can they fault a 30 year long completely independent study, literally the longest study of its kind.
Science completely contradicts the racist claims that you are simply regurgitating from reddit comment sections.
The reality of the popularity of the CPC among the Chinese people is that it has improved the lives of the people by incredible amounts, and continues to do so.
Buddy, entire books have been written on how western oligarch owned media works with western regimes to manipulate public opinion. Here are a couple you should read:
Thing is that no amount of propaganda can counter the actual lived experience of the people in a country. This is why there is growing social unrest despite the west having the most sophisticated and best funded propaganda in the world. People can see that their lives are constantly getting worse and they've lost trust in the system and the media.
If people's material conditions in China were declining the same way they are in the west, then people in China would lose faith in their system too. Yet, the opposite is happening because people are seeing their live improve drastically with each an every decade.
massive deposits of lib cope in the comments, we can keep the copium factory working at max capacity for years at this rate. keep up the good work!