Agree with you in general, but I think a lot if people here are not really informed what differences there are materialistic ideologies.
Yes, Stalin bad.
But Guevara is not Stalin.
Marx is not che
Engels is not Marx
China is not communist.
Marxism is not materialism
Socialism is not communism
Also the amount of people bringing the "the 3 times people tried socialism were bad, so the whole ideology must be bad" argument are way to high IMHO.
How many times was capitalism tried? How many times it worked out? Is the USA a "functioning" state with all the oppression, racism, greed, invading other countries out of monetarian interest and environment destruction?
While I agree with you, that oppression is bad, no matter what the oppressor calls himself, we should talk about policies without resorting to dogmas and generalising people in favor of fear the hegemonic class is propagating to stay in power.
Yeah, that's not the tankies here; these are "North Korea is a great country, actually" tankies.
Also, "anything negative about a communist country is US propaganda"
or "russia is correctly in invading ukraine"
Should probably listen to Blowback Season 3.
Not to say they're a perfect country but to pretend that anyone in the West can critique them when their material conditions are dictated by the actions of the West is just comical.
If you aren't a materialist, what are you even doing? As if history happens in the realm of pure thought.....
The material conditions forcing North Korea to make work camps
Bugger off, tankie
Something something worlds largest prison population?
Again, it's not like North Korea is some shining example or anything, but to pretend that the west has the moral high ground here is laughable.
Again, listen to Blowback Season 3, recognize that their country was basically bombed to the stone age Curtis le may style and then maybe reevaluate, just a little, the chauvinist attitude.
DPRK is not a great country but it's not as if they were ever given a chance either.
Yeah, the US prison system is absolutely abhorrent and counterethical to all the principles it's supposed to hold.
First, the US is basically the only western country like that:tm:, second, more than one thing can be bad. "'North Korea is a great country' is a dumb position", the only (implied) assertion I made about it in my original comment, is still true, even if they got dealt a shit hand (which, so did most of the east after WW2; South Korea was in a pretty similar state (it was actually worse than NK shortly after the Korean war), yet they're doing... much better than NK at least).
Being "basically bombed to the stone age" doesn't mean a dictatorship is inevitable, nor that their government is suddenly blameless; being victimized doesn't mean you can victimize others.
Genuinely, if you take "the west" as a whole and compare it to North Korea... yeah, I do think they have a high ground. No, I'm not saying the west is perfect, far from it. No, I'm not saying communism is automatically bad, I'm totally cool with communists.
Basically my base position is "a functional democracy is the governance system that works the best". Most western states are much closer to that than North Korea (yes, I know what the Electoral College is and why it's bad), so I do think their political system is better.
I still wonder why you're so obsessed with North Korea. It's not like the South wasn't also a dictatorship until very recently. I wonder what the difference in economic outcomes was. Surely not the political system but instead the different material conditions between south and north i.e. embargo and isolation.
Again, I don't think that NK is the best example of AES, in fact their country is probably the worst. But I don't think the people who have produced the economic emisseration of the country and have worked to undermine its regime at every term get to scold them about their political choices.
Why should democracy be privileged when the choices of that democracy, at least internationally, are immoral. Should we praise democracy when it produces an evil outcome? Why are you so wedded to a system? After all democracy produces trans and drag bans in the south. Is that good? This isn't to say dictatorship is superior, I don't think it necessarily is, but to pretend the virtue is in the system rather than the outcome is pretty lib. If democracy produces fascism is it still good? If we throw our trans friends or homeless into the wood chipper because voters say it's good with 51% of the vote, does that legitimate it?
All of the so called 'functional democracies' of the West are abysmal, China has 94% government satisfaction where I doubt there's one western country over 50% (and the US is at 24%)
The country that holds the record for number and percentage of people in prison is the US.
In the US the percentage of black people in prison was higher than the percentage of black people in prison in South Africa during apartheid.
No other western/industrialized (at some stage) nation has had so many political exilees and people whose citizenship was revoked based on "anti-american" views than the US. At some point the general secretary of RCP was in exile in France with his citizenship revoked. So, not all states are equal, and their historic development as modern capitalist states should be studied within context.
When a liberal says "tankie" they mean anything remotely communist-looking. When a leftist says "tankie", they mean authoritarians who like red flags and self-proclaimed communists who nonetheless support hierarchies and have no plan or intention to bring them down. I think the vast majority of people here knows this already.
I think the vast majority of people here knows this already.
You are way optimistic.
Mostly True, while (at least in my part of the world) there are a lot of people who like red flags but fight against hierarchies.
There are plenty of Marxists and Marxist-derived socialists who aren't Tankies.
They just don't make up the majority.
Is the USA a βfunctioningβ state with all the oppression, racism, greed, invading other countries out of monetarian interest and environment destruction?
I hope you realize that this is an incredibly privileged take. The US is rife with issues, but the hardships experienced by the average western citizen doesn't even compare to the suffering that you would find in, say, Pol Pot's Cambodia, or (to a less extreme extent) Maduro's Venezuela. To compare what a US citizen deals with on a daily basis due to capitalism to what a citizen of any of those countries had to go through is very reductive and may be perceived as disrespectful to many who had to live those experiences.
The United States, for all it's faults, is the pretty side of capitalism.you don't even need to look to the most poor countries to see a standard of living that makes even directly post ww2 soviet union look like a great place.
The US is rife with issues, but the hardships experienced by the average western citizen doesnβt even compare to the suffering that you would find in, say, Pol Potβs Cambodia
I have some fellas from Detroit that would disagree.
My dude you need to stop right now before you end up saying that genocide isn't that bad. Because that's what Pol Pot did.
Genocide and pol pot is terrible. So is the USA.
Killing millions and being dysfunctional are in a different realm of terrible. I'm sorry, but how did you come to the conclusion that they are even comparable?
hm i wonder if theres any capitalist countries with a history of committing genocide..
Every genocide can be bad at all the same time. You know?
yea i know. genocide is never a good thing. no matter who does it. whats ur point?
I'm not sure about your specific views, but my point is that the genocides carried out by the USSR and by China and by other 'Communist' states are bad, and that they don't become any less bad as a consequence of Capitalism also having carried out genocides.
i fully agree and im sorry if it came across differently.
No you're good, just trying to answer
lol oki. i decided to stop arguing with the tankies here. i dont wanna legitimize it as a valid position to discuss about.
dont waste too much time on these fuckers, look after urself too :3
I'm all ears. Please give me a list so I can expand my understanding.
oh dear here we go. off the top of my head, there is of course, canada, usa (native americans), israel (palestinians), nazi germany (jewish people, PoC, queer people, communists, and a whole bunch of others)(it mightve called itself socialist but was still very much capitalist), china (uyghur people) (also might call itself communist but they literally have billionaires and a fucking stock market, cmon)
I view nazi germany and china quite a bit different from real capitalist societies. Simply having a stock market doesn't mean the markets are free to function as they please.
I also tend to disagree with canada and usa being genocidial at this point in time. For sure they did horrific things, but comparing usa to nazi germany or current day china is delusional, as the US country's government is not actively killing a part of their own population.
What rubs me the wrong way in these conversations is mentioning capitalism as a system that commits the genocide. Both germany and china are/were state driven, and as such the markets didn't really have anything to do with the actions. Instead the genocide is driven by the government that is/was authoritarian, and as such the markets aren't driving the killing.
The one country I agree with being a free market and genocidial is Israel.
So because the genocide the US did was in the past it doesn't count?
It counts for sure. It's just different to call current US genocidial in comparison to stating that US has committed genocide. Kinda like germany is not a genocidial country, but 80 years ago it was. The government now isn't the same that committed the atrocities.
I'm probably off topic, but in left leaning communities I see a lot of references to the US as a genocidial regime. My above explanation should clear up somewhat why I feel that it's a bit far fetched. Eg. the current state of things in the US doesn't count as one IMO.
We have a government that spends billions of dollars on the military industrial complex with what amounts to no opposition politically. Having spent that money we then go on to justify the weapons being deployed around the world.
If Isreal is a genocidal country, how is America not for enabling Isreal? There is no distinction in my mind. It's the same capitalist interests at play.
I understand where you are coming from, but maybe u understand our point of view, that you don't need the genocides and war that bad anymore, when past genocides and wars already have made you the mightiest force in the world.
If your on top and have mostly money, its easy to screw others with said money, a fight you'll always win, and pointing the blame, when they switch to the same strategies, you used to get in the position of power where you are now.
Simply having a stock market doesn't mean the markets are free to function as they please.
are u saying that government intervention in the "free market" = communism?
as a reminder, communism is a stateless, classless, and moneyless society.
also, state intervention in the market does not make a country no longer capitalist, they all have that.
but comparing usa to nazi germany or current day china is delusional
i was just giving u a list of genocidal capitalist countries, i wasnt comparing them with each other.
many countries are built on genocide thanks to colonialism. canada is one of them, and it has not changed its course
are u saying that government intervention in the βfree marketβ = communism?
I mostly agree with the rest of the points, but I have to comment on this. I'm not implying that china is communist. AFAIK I did not state that in my comments. What I am saying is that government intervention in free markets is antithetical to capitalism. That doesn't make it communism, socialism, or any other flavor of purism, but still disqualifies the country from being capitalist.
Sry but this is just bullshit. Nearly every country does that and they are capitalist. Its not antiethical, its needed to stabelise capitalism (even in the USA there are ISO norms, food and drug administration, tax differences for different corporations etc. Pp.)
I'm not implying that china is communist. AFAIK I did not state that in my comments.
yea i figured. just wanted to make sure π
government intervention in free markets is antithetical to capitalism.
all the countries i mentioned have/had corporate taxes
still disqualifies the country from being capitalist.
oof so by that definition, are there any capitalist countries right now?
has it ever been tried and succeeded so far?
if any intervention in the free market makes a country no longer capitalist, i mean.
Im not from USA, and from my point of view its mich worse than most other countries (no healthcare, no independend courts, murder sprees in schools nearly every day, opression of half of the world (a half of them just to get more oil to destroy the planet faster), one of 3 of the biggest war-pushers in whole earth, polutes and destroys earth mode than every other country per citizens, etc. PP.)
capitalism mostly opresses and profits from people out of the country to Funktion. if its Bad in Venezuela or Cuba or Afghanistan, or even early russia, thats at least partly fault of US.
Venezuela is not communism, China isnt, russia isnt.
Most of them have failed, at least partly because caputalist societys atack them and stop a as soon as they are born and they can't form a stable democracy.
Before reading Marx, your bashing of communism isnt worth anything, as you clearly don't understand what you are talking about. We never had communism, and some would say not even socialism. You sound like you don't even know the difference, since you keep talking about communism, which is a utopian society after humanity has stopped a lot of bad habits and has learned to live without working against each other in competition and working together instead, which arises maybe after generations of workig socialism, which we clearly didn't have.
4.you exactly prove my point. I dont agree with tankies either, but the number of people around here blindly copying capitalist propaganda while understanding nothing they bash about is too damm high.
You have a warped view of USA that doesn't reflect reality. You're seeing it through the lens of sensationalist news media and hyperventilating social media posts.
The actual reality for Americans is that it's a vast, beautiful land with an amazing spectrum of various experience. Violent crime is rare overall, and most Americans have never seen or heard any gun violence in person. Health care is available to pretty much everyone, even if you don't have money. We have state-run healthcare facilities that the poor can make use of like county health departments.
My life in the USA is great, because I don't live in a big city. I live on my own land, in a nice house that I own, and I'm just middle class income level. It's pretty easy to accomplish if you choose a low cost of living area rather than a big metropolis or suburb thereof.
Well of course the standard of living in the imperial core is higher than the countries it has exploited or destabilized. A lot of American wealth is the fruit of imperialism.
Agree with you in general, but I think a lot if people here are not really informed what differences there are materialistic ideologies.
Yes, Stalin bad.
But Guevara is not Stalin.
Marx is not che
Engels is not Marx
China is not communist.
Marxism is not materialism
Socialism is not communism
Also the amount of people bringing the "the 3 times people tried socialism were bad, so the whole ideology must be bad" argument are way to high IMHO.
How many times was capitalism tried? How many times it worked out? Is the USA a "functioning" state with all the oppression, racism, greed, invading other countries out of monetarian interest and environment destruction?
While I agree with you, that oppression is bad, no matter what the oppressor calls himself, we should talk about policies without resorting to dogmas and generalising people in favor of fear the hegemonic class is propagating to stay in power.
Yeah, that's not the tankies here; these are "North Korea is a great country, actually" tankies.
Also, "anything negative about a communist country is US propaganda"
or "russia is correctly in invading ukraine"
Should probably listen to Blowback Season 3.
Not to say they're a perfect country but to pretend that anyone in the West can critique them when their material conditions are dictated by the actions of the West is just comical.
If you aren't a materialist, what are you even doing? As if history happens in the realm of pure thought.....
The material conditions forcing North Korea to make work camps
Bugger off, tankie
Something something worlds largest prison population?
Again, it's not like North Korea is some shining example or anything, but to pretend that the west has the moral high ground here is laughable.
Again, listen to Blowback Season 3, recognize that their country was basically bombed to the stone age Curtis le may style and then maybe reevaluate, just a little, the chauvinist attitude.
DPRK is not a great country but it's not as if they were ever given a chance either.
Yeah, the US prison system is absolutely abhorrent and counterethical to all the principles it's supposed to hold.
First, the US is basically the only western country like that:tm:, second, more than one thing can be bad. "'North Korea is a great country' is a dumb position", the only (implied) assertion I made about it in my original comment, is still true, even if they got dealt a shit hand (which, so did most of the east after WW2; South Korea was in a pretty similar state (it was actually worse than NK shortly after the Korean war), yet they're doing... much better than NK at least).
Being "basically bombed to the stone age" doesn't mean a dictatorship is inevitable, nor that their government is suddenly blameless; being victimized doesn't mean you can victimize others.
Genuinely, if you take "the west" as a whole and compare it to North Korea... yeah, I do think they have a high ground. No, I'm not saying the west is perfect, far from it. No, I'm not saying communism is automatically bad, I'm totally cool with communists.
Basically my base position is "a functional democracy is the governance system that works the best". Most western states are much closer to that than North Korea (yes, I know what the Electoral College is and why it's bad), so I do think their political system is better.
I still wonder why you're so obsessed with North Korea. It's not like the South wasn't also a dictatorship until very recently. I wonder what the difference in economic outcomes was. Surely not the political system but instead the different material conditions between south and north i.e. embargo and isolation.
Again, I don't think that NK is the best example of AES, in fact their country is probably the worst. But I don't think the people who have produced the economic emisseration of the country and have worked to undermine its regime at every term get to scold them about their political choices.
Why should democracy be privileged when the choices of that democracy, at least internationally, are immoral. Should we praise democracy when it produces an evil outcome? Why are you so wedded to a system? After all democracy produces trans and drag bans in the south. Is that good? This isn't to say dictatorship is superior, I don't think it necessarily is, but to pretend the virtue is in the system rather than the outcome is pretty lib. If democracy produces fascism is it still good? If we throw our trans friends or homeless into the wood chipper because voters say it's good with 51% of the vote, does that legitimate it?
All of the so called 'functional democracies' of the West are abysmal, China has 94% government satisfaction where I doubt there's one western country over 50% (and the US is at 24%)
The country that holds the record for number and percentage of people in prison is the US. In the US the percentage of black people in prison was higher than the percentage of black people in prison in South Africa during apartheid.
No other western/industrialized (at some stage) nation has had so many political exilees and people whose citizenship was revoked based on "anti-american" views than the US. At some point the general secretary of RCP was in exile in France with his citizenship revoked. So, not all states are equal, and their historic development as modern capitalist states should be studied within context.
When a liberal says "tankie" they mean anything remotely communist-looking. When a leftist says "tankie", they mean authoritarians who like red flags and self-proclaimed communists who nonetheless support hierarchies and have no plan or intention to bring them down. I think the vast majority of people here knows this already.
You are way optimistic.
Mostly True, while (at least in my part of the world) there are a lot of people who like red flags but fight against hierarchies.
There are plenty of Marxists and Marxist-derived socialists who aren't Tankies.
They just don't make up the majority.
I hope you realize that this is an incredibly privileged take. The US is rife with issues, but the hardships experienced by the average western citizen doesn't even compare to the suffering that you would find in, say, Pol Pot's Cambodia, or (to a less extreme extent) Maduro's Venezuela. To compare what a US citizen deals with on a daily basis due to capitalism to what a citizen of any of those countries had to go through is very reductive and may be perceived as disrespectful to many who had to live those experiences.
The United States, for all it's faults, is the pretty side of capitalism.you don't even need to look to the most poor countries to see a standard of living that makes even directly post ww2 soviet union look like a great place.
I have some fellas from Detroit that would disagree.
My dude you need to stop right now before you end up saying that genocide isn't that bad. Because that's what Pol Pot did.
Genocide and pol pot is terrible. So is the USA.
Killing millions and being dysfunctional are in a different realm of terrible. I'm sorry, but how did you come to the conclusion that they are even comparable?
hm i wonder if theres any capitalist countries with a history of committing genocide..
Every genocide can be bad at all the same time. You know?
yea i know. genocide is never a good thing. no matter who does it. whats ur point?
I'm not sure about your specific views, but my point is that the genocides carried out by the USSR and by China and by other 'Communist' states are bad, and that they don't become any less bad as a consequence of Capitalism also having carried out genocides.
i fully agree and im sorry if it came across differently.
No you're good, just trying to answer
lol oki. i decided to stop arguing with the tankies here. i dont wanna legitimize it as a valid position to discuss about.
dont waste too much time on these fuckers, look after urself too :3
I'm all ears. Please give me a list so I can expand my understanding.
oh dear here we go. off the top of my head, there is of course, canada, usa (native americans), israel (palestinians), nazi germany (jewish people, PoC, queer people, communists, and a whole bunch of others)(it mightve called itself socialist but was still very much capitalist), china (uyghur people) (also might call itself communist but they literally have billionaires and a fucking stock market, cmon)
I view nazi germany and china quite a bit different from real capitalist societies. Simply having a stock market doesn't mean the markets are free to function as they please.
I also tend to disagree with canada and usa being genocidial at this point in time. For sure they did horrific things, but comparing usa to nazi germany or current day china is delusional, as the US country's government is not actively killing a part of their own population.
What rubs me the wrong way in these conversations is mentioning capitalism as a system that commits the genocide. Both germany and china are/were state driven, and as such the markets didn't really have anything to do with the actions. Instead the genocide is driven by the government that is/was authoritarian, and as such the markets aren't driving the killing.
The one country I agree with being a free market and genocidial is Israel.
So because the genocide the US did was in the past it doesn't count?
It counts for sure. It's just different to call current US genocidial in comparison to stating that US has committed genocide. Kinda like germany is not a genocidial country, but 80 years ago it was. The government now isn't the same that committed the atrocities.
I'm probably off topic, but in left leaning communities I see a lot of references to the US as a genocidial regime. My above explanation should clear up somewhat why I feel that it's a bit far fetched. Eg. the current state of things in the US doesn't count as one IMO.
We have a government that spends billions of dollars on the military industrial complex with what amounts to no opposition politically. Having spent that money we then go on to justify the weapons being deployed around the world.
If Isreal is a genocidal country, how is America not for enabling Isreal? There is no distinction in my mind. It's the same capitalist interests at play.
I understand where you are coming from, but maybe u understand our point of view, that you don't need the genocides and war that bad anymore, when past genocides and wars already have made you the mightiest force in the world.
If your on top and have mostly money, its easy to screw others with said money, a fight you'll always win, and pointing the blame, when they switch to the same strategies, you used to get in the position of power where you are now.
are u saying that government intervention in the "free market" = communism?
as a reminder, communism is a stateless, classless, and moneyless society.
also, state intervention in the market does not make a country no longer capitalist, they all have that.
i was just giving u a list of genocidal capitalist countries, i wasnt comparing them with each other.
many countries are built on genocide thanks to colonialism. canada is one of them, and it has not changed its course
I mostly agree with the rest of the points, but I have to comment on this. I'm not implying that china is communist. AFAIK I did not state that in my comments. What I am saying is that government intervention in free markets is antithetical to capitalism. That doesn't make it communism, socialism, or any other flavor of purism, but still disqualifies the country from being capitalist.
Sry but this is just bullshit. Nearly every country does that and they are capitalist. Its not antiethical, its needed to stabelise capitalism (even in the USA there are ISO norms, food and drug administration, tax differences for different corporations etc. Pp.)
yea i figured. just wanted to make sure π
all the countries i mentioned have/had corporate taxes
oof so by that definition, are there any capitalist countries right now? has it ever been tried and succeeded so far? if any intervention in the free market makes a country no longer capitalist, i mean.
My country, Guatemala, for a start. With tacit US approval even.
For the person dying of hunger is the same. But yeah, killing millions is bad and is something America NEVER did, right?
Implying the us is better than Cambodia because Cambodia committed genocide is very weird, considering that the US did so too
You can't be serious...
Im not from USA, and from my point of view its mich worse than most other countries (no healthcare, no independend courts, murder sprees in schools nearly every day, opression of half of the world (a half of them just to get more oil to destroy the planet faster), one of 3 of the biggest war-pushers in whole earth, polutes and destroys earth mode than every other country per citizens, etc. PP.)
capitalism mostly opresses and profits from people out of the country to Funktion. if its Bad in Venezuela or Cuba or Afghanistan, or even early russia, thats at least partly fault of US.
Venezuela is not communism, China isnt, russia isnt. Most of them have failed, at least partly because caputalist societys atack them and stop a as soon as they are born and they can't form a stable democracy. Before reading Marx, your bashing of communism isnt worth anything, as you clearly don't understand what you are talking about. We never had communism, and some would say not even socialism. You sound like you don't even know the difference, since you keep talking about communism, which is a utopian society after humanity has stopped a lot of bad habits and has learned to live without working against each other in competition and working together instead, which arises maybe after generations of workig socialism, which we clearly didn't have.
4.you exactly prove my point. I dont agree with tankies either, but the number of people around here blindly copying capitalist propaganda while understanding nothing they bash about is too damm high.
You have a warped view of USA that doesn't reflect reality. You're seeing it through the lens of sensationalist news media and hyperventilating social media posts.
The actual reality for Americans is that it's a vast, beautiful land with an amazing spectrum of various experience. Violent crime is rare overall, and most Americans have never seen or heard any gun violence in person. Health care is available to pretty much everyone, even if you don't have money. We have state-run healthcare facilities that the poor can make use of like county health departments.
My life in the USA is great, because I don't live in a big city. I live on my own land, in a nice house that I own, and I'm just middle class income level. It's pretty easy to accomplish if you choose a low cost of living area rather than a big metropolis or suburb thereof.
Well of course the standard of living in the imperial core is higher than the countries it has exploited or destabilized. A lot of American wealth is the fruit of imperialism.