Sad thing is is that there are probably many responsible gun owners, but its the jackasses that get publicized and drawn into the public eye.
Though, that's how it should be. It just takes one reckless owner to ruin several people's lives. That's an incredibly low margin of error, and people should talk about it.
EVERYONE is a responsible gun owner until they aren’t.
Same with car drivers though, no?
Don’t even start with that bullshit. Cars are necessary and aren’t manufactured for the purpose of killing.
That's fair
Cars are not technically necessary. But we regulate them heavily - through licensing, safety tests, and policing. And your license can be pulled or suspended so that you cannot drive.
Why? Because they are deadly. Just because something isn't created to kill (say... To protect your family? To get you to your job?) doesn't mean it can't kill.
Sadly, we live in a country where freedom and rights are valued more than community and respect.
But as the welcome to nightvale NRA says: "Guns don't kill people. We're all invincible and it's a miracle." (Podcast.)
Do not approach the dog park.
... my phone is always dying so I think I'd like living in a desert otherworld where my phone mysteriously never dies
The critical difference is that auto insurance is (usually) required, while firearm insurance is not.
And any dumbass who tries to equate the two to justify mass firearm proliferation, just tell them to defend their homes with cars and knives just the same.
Then they'll raise their hands and go, "whoa whoa, hey now..."
I mean, a part of me would sooner say “yes, they are both needlessly dangerous and costly to society, which is why a society structured around needing and allowing either mass guns or cars is stupid.”
Cars are necessary despite what a bunch of people in Reddit forums think.
The US has more car deaths than anywhere else in the world, by far. Like guns, it’s a real “This is not preventable, says only country where this happens” vibe.
Some cars will always be necessary. The crazy delusional obsession with car dependence that happens literally nowhere else in the world is not necessary.
Not going to argue with you about it.
Very similar to a gun advocate. It’s what you’re used to and you’ve already made up your mind, actual arguments or evidence be damned.
Not even remotely close. I just don’t exercise futility in pointless debates. You’re just as likely to refuse reason as you accuse me of- so it’s pointless.
Move on.
Based on what? I’ve given actual arguments and you haven’t. What a bad faith response.
My claim is modest: there are easily preventable harms to both widespread use of guns and cars, evidenced by the fact that the US is a HUGE outlier in both.
Agreed.
If anyone wants to further argue, note the issue is that we've built a country where cars are necessary. (And yet not so necessary that someone's license can't be suspended!) However, there is no reason why this can't be changed. Saying it can't is limiting our future to also think cars are necessary. They aren't. They are useful in many places. But you could do without them if as a society we decided to do that. Dream bigger everyone! Have a world where you DON'T need to sit in traffic every day. Where you DON'T wait at red light after red light. Where you DON'T need to be a designated driver for your friends. Where you DON'T fear the day your vision gets so bad you lose your independence. Where you DON'T need to spend hundreds on insurance and car purchases and parking tickets and everything else. If we don't dream it, we can't ask for it. And if we don't ask for it, what we have now will be what we're stuck with.
(And if you want to have a car and have fun - sure! But then it'll be extra fun when it's not a requirement and fewer cars are on the road!)
That's a no to this and the comment you're replying to
I'm not pro-gun, or pro-car, or anything that is a detriment to society. I vote progressively, donate to digital rights groups, and contribute money and code to open source projects. I believe in a better world.
Okay, with that out of the way, I'm looking for an argument I can use against a gun owner to tell them that they should not own a gun.
School shootings and dead kids is somehow not enough to convince them, because of the claim that its a minority of reckless users who are the problem. I am looking for other arguments I can use, and I will question arguments that seem weak or inconsistent to me.
Apologies if the car argument is often used by them, it came to me on the spur of the moment. Clearly it was a bad argument.
I’m looking for an argument I can use against a gun owner to tell them that they should not own a gun.
I don't think there is a universal argument against it that will work with everyone. Find out why they actually want a gun (not what they tell others on the surface) and check if there is a way they can get what they need without it.
If they have a gun because it makes them feel more "manly" then no argument will help, telling them they don't need a gun to be a man could. If they feel insecure and threatened, helping them to find other ways to feel secure and safe again will help. It could be group pressure, it could be anything.
If you can't make them give away the gun, maybe you can make them put it behind a lock, gun and ammunition separated at least. That would keep everyone more save. Sometimes it is all one can do, but it would have hindered this accident to happen.
That puts your original comment into perspective.
I don't think there is an argument that could convince someone who wears their gun like it's a religion. They see that as part of their identity, and you can't change that with simple logic.
I guess I live in the hope that we're all human beings capable of being reasoned with
Change almost never comes from the outside. You have to want to change. They have to put the pieces together themselves and many people just lack the required introspection.
These folks get a hit of dopamine from guns. That's hard to fight against with logical argument.
Everyone has their irrational topics where it's hard or impossible to be reasoned with. The issue is that it's really hard to spot that with yourself, because in one's mind it all sounds reasonable.
Many firm beliefs that everyone of us holds are not nearly as much backed by science than we actually believe.
My only gripe with what you said is that there are legitimately irresponsible drivers and irresponsible gun owners. I don't think there's anything you can say to most Americans who own a gun to get them to not. Guns are so tied to the American image, it's not a tool, or a hobby...it's a fetish, a symbol of belonging to the group.
The car argument isn't a bad one, but saying that everyone is responsible until they're not is a falsehood.
A better way to phrase it might be something along the lines of:
Even responsible drivers can make an error, and a single error, one split second of inattentiveness, can destroy the lives of so many people. Now consider how many people are irresponsible drivers.
Even responsible drivers can make an error, and a single error, one split second of inattentiveness, can destroy the lives of so many people. Now consider how many people are irresponsible drivers.
This is a good one to use, my thanks.
No sweat 👍
I’m looking for an argument I can use against a gun owner to tell them that they should not own a gu
"No one is going to break into your suburban home, Steve. Quit being such a pussy."
You'll have to do it with work. No magic bullet on this one. I own zero firearms but I'm a staunch advocate for 2a and our right to self defense.
A lot of people don't have well thought out reasoning, but it's cultural. I'm not saying they don't think about it so much as they never thought to, because they don't see those problems in their communities. They've been around firearms their whole life. When you go to a farm on a shooting day the old timers find the noobs and gently correct them. Problems get sorted quickly from those group experiences.
So, you have to ask questions to sort out where they stand and to break down their ideas into something more concrete. You have to kinda neutrally get them to put thought into how they came to the ideas they have.
Are cars designed to kill people? Or are they used to kill people in extraordinary circumstances?
There are, mostly in fact. For some rough math, there are 333,287,557 people in the US, about 50% of which own guns for a rough 166,643,778.5 gun owners. There are 60,000 yearly gun deaths including suicides, accidents, and intentional firearm homicides, for a total of 0.036004944523026% of gun owners likely to be irresponsible leading to death in any given year.
Couple notes, this doesn't include illegally owned guns/gun owners in the number (166,643,778.5) of gun owners, because we can't have that number by the nature of it. Most gun crime excluding suicide comes from them though, and so the 60,000 does include them. This also doesn't include people only injured or non injurious irresponsibility or negligent discharge, as often this goes unreported and so far as I can find isn't tracked well likely due to difficulty. That surely does happen as well, like the idiots filming themselves pointing it at the camera (and their own stupid hand). But these figures can at least paint a picture that somewhere around .036% of gun owners/yr are in the "irresponsible" camp, +/- .002% for margin of error.
I do agree, it should be talked about, we can learn from others' mistakes and lessen the frequency. We should also talk about it when people use them correctly in self defense, or training, IDPA, etc, because that is a lot more frequent and we can learn from good examples as well.
Thanks for doing the homework - this was my general feeling too
I think there's a big problem with responsible gun owners defending irresponsible gun owners. Like, there's a knee-jerk reaction when someone says guns are dangerous, even though you're supposed to always act as though they are dangerous.
Current estimates say there are 475 million guns in the US and around 330 million people. About 1.5 guns per person on average.
You just never hear about the responsible gun owners. ;)
The most responsible gun owner in the world is still armed for violence because they're afraid.
Civilian guns are for pussies.
Says someone who apparently has the privelege to not feel unsafe in their own home...
I used to be like you, never thought I'd own a gun, then, when I moved to the big city, I had an apartment across the street from a row of houses.
The houses were all owned by the same person who rented them out and each one had problems. Arguments, fights, drugs, pitbulls running loose, one person in particular we called "the crazy lady across the street."
One day I'm watching a live news broadcast and I'm like "Oh, shit, it's the crazy lady across the street!" Looked out the window, yup, there's the news van.
So, yeah, I feel better having a gun in the house. Because you can TRY calling 9-1-1 here, but really if you need to defend yourself, you're on your own.
I used to live next to a neighbor who tried to kill me twice. I was poor, in a poor neighborhood, with shitty utilities and actively-hostile police. My home has been broken into, there was violence outside of my house, and my neighbor got arrested for meth.
I just don't live in fear, because I'm not a coward.
Acknowledging you live in a dangerous situation and taking steps to improve your chances if something should happen isn't living in fear. Nor is it cowardly.
Buying a gun as a civilian, for the purposes of defense, is inherently an act of fear. That's inarguable.
If you think you'll have a reasonable chance of needing it that isn't fear. It's just being prepared. If you are in a situation where a gun is warranted there really aren't better alternatives.
Sad thing is is that there are probably many responsible gun owners, but its the jackasses that get publicized and drawn into the public eye.
Though, that's how it should be. It just takes one reckless owner to ruin several people's lives. That's an incredibly low margin of error, and people should talk about it.
EVERYONE is a responsible gun owner until they aren’t.
Same with car drivers though, no?
Don’t even start with that bullshit. Cars are necessary and aren’t manufactured for the purpose of killing.
That's fair
Cars are not technically necessary. But we regulate them heavily - through licensing, safety tests, and policing. And your license can be pulled or suspended so that you cannot drive.
Why? Because they are deadly. Just because something isn't created to kill (say... To protect your family? To get you to your job?) doesn't mean it can't kill.
Sadly, we live in a country where freedom and rights are valued more than community and respect.
But as the welcome to nightvale NRA says: "Guns don't kill people. We're all invincible and it's a miracle." (Podcast.)
Do not approach the dog park.
... my phone is always dying so I think I'd like living in a desert otherworld where my phone mysteriously never dies
We have car insurance, but not gun insurance.
https://locktonaffinityoutdoor.com/personal-firearm-liability/
The critical difference is that auto insurance is (usually) required, while firearm insurance is not.
And any dumbass who tries to equate the two to justify mass firearm proliferation, just tell them to defend their homes with cars and knives just the same.
Then they'll raise their hands and go, "whoa whoa, hey now..."
I mean, a part of me would sooner say “yes, they are both needlessly dangerous and costly to society, which is why a society structured around needing and allowing either mass guns or cars is stupid.”
Cars are necessary despite what a bunch of people in Reddit forums think.
The US has more car deaths than anywhere else in the world, by far. Like guns, it’s a real “This is not preventable, says only country where this happens” vibe.
Some cars will always be necessary. The crazy delusional obsession with car dependence that happens literally nowhere else in the world is not necessary.
Not going to argue with you about it.
Very similar to a gun advocate. It’s what you’re used to and you’ve already made up your mind, actual arguments or evidence be damned.
Not even remotely close. I just don’t exercise futility in pointless debates. You’re just as likely to refuse reason as you accuse me of- so it’s pointless.
Move on.
Based on what? I’ve given actual arguments and you haven’t. What a bad faith response.
My claim is modest: there are easily preventable harms to both widespread use of guns and cars, evidenced by the fact that the US is a HUGE outlier in both.
Agreed.
If anyone wants to further argue, note the issue is that we've built a country where cars are necessary. (And yet not so necessary that someone's license can't be suspended!) However, there is no reason why this can't be changed. Saying it can't is limiting our future to also think cars are necessary. They aren't. They are useful in many places. But you could do without them if as a society we decided to do that. Dream bigger everyone! Have a world where you DON'T need to sit in traffic every day. Where you DON'T wait at red light after red light. Where you DON'T need to be a designated driver for your friends. Where you DON'T fear the day your vision gets so bad you lose your independence. Where you DON'T need to spend hundreds on insurance and car purchases and parking tickets and everything else. If we don't dream it, we can't ask for it. And if we don't ask for it, what we have now will be what we're stuck with.
(And if you want to have a car and have fun - sure! But then it'll be extra fun when it's not a requirement and fewer cars are on the road!)
That's a no to this and the comment you're replying to
I'm not pro-gun, or pro-car, or anything that is a detriment to society. I vote progressively, donate to digital rights groups, and contribute money and code to open source projects. I believe in a better world.
Okay, with that out of the way, I'm looking for an argument I can use against a gun owner to tell them that they should not own a gun.
School shootings and dead kids is somehow not enough to convince them, because of the claim that its a minority of reckless users who are the problem. I am looking for other arguments I can use, and I will question arguments that seem weak or inconsistent to me.
Apologies if the car argument is often used by them, it came to me on the spur of the moment. Clearly it was a bad argument.
I don't think there is a universal argument against it that will work with everyone. Find out why they actually want a gun (not what they tell others on the surface) and check if there is a way they can get what they need without it.
If they have a gun because it makes them feel more "manly" then no argument will help, telling them they don't need a gun to be a man could. If they feel insecure and threatened, helping them to find other ways to feel secure and safe again will help. It could be group pressure, it could be anything.
If you can't make them give away the gun, maybe you can make them put it behind a lock, gun and ammunition separated at least. That would keep everyone more save. Sometimes it is all one can do, but it would have hindered this accident to happen.
That puts your original comment into perspective.
I don't think there is an argument that could convince someone who wears their gun like it's a religion. They see that as part of their identity, and you can't change that with simple logic.
I guess I live in the hope that we're all human beings capable of being reasoned with
Change almost never comes from the outside. You have to want to change. They have to put the pieces together themselves and many people just lack the required introspection.
These folks get a hit of dopamine from guns. That's hard to fight against with logical argument.
Everyone has their irrational topics where it's hard or impossible to be reasoned with. The issue is that it's really hard to spot that with yourself, because in one's mind it all sounds reasonable.
Many firm beliefs that everyone of us holds are not nearly as much backed by science than we actually believe.
My only gripe with what you said is that there are legitimately irresponsible drivers and irresponsible gun owners. I don't think there's anything you can say to most Americans who own a gun to get them to not. Guns are so tied to the American image, it's not a tool, or a hobby...it's a fetish, a symbol of belonging to the group.
The car argument isn't a bad one, but saying that everyone is responsible until they're not is a falsehood.
A better way to phrase it might be something along the lines of:
Even responsible drivers can make an error, and a single error, one split second of inattentiveness, can destroy the lives of so many people. Now consider how many people are irresponsible drivers.
This is a good one to use, my thanks.
No sweat 👍
"No one is going to break into your suburban home, Steve. Quit being such a pussy."
You'll have to do it with work. No magic bullet on this one. I own zero firearms but I'm a staunch advocate for 2a and our right to self defense.
A lot of people don't have well thought out reasoning, but it's cultural. I'm not saying they don't think about it so much as they never thought to, because they don't see those problems in their communities. They've been around firearms their whole life. When you go to a farm on a shooting day the old timers find the noobs and gently correct them. Problems get sorted quickly from those group experiences.
So, you have to ask questions to sort out where they stand and to break down their ideas into something more concrete. You have to kinda neutrally get them to put thought into how they came to the ideas they have.
Are cars designed to kill people? Or are they used to kill people in extraordinary circumstances?
There are, mostly in fact. For some rough math, there are 333,287,557 people in the US, about 50% of which own guns for a rough 166,643,778.5 gun owners. There are 60,000 yearly gun deaths including suicides, accidents, and intentional firearm homicides, for a total of 0.036004944523026% of gun owners likely to be irresponsible leading to death in any given year.
Couple notes, this doesn't include illegally owned guns/gun owners in the number (166,643,778.5) of gun owners, because we can't have that number by the nature of it. Most gun crime excluding suicide comes from them though, and so the 60,000 does include them. This also doesn't include people only injured or non injurious irresponsibility or negligent discharge, as often this goes unreported and so far as I can find isn't tracked well likely due to difficulty. That surely does happen as well, like the idiots filming themselves pointing it at the camera (and their own stupid hand). But these figures can at least paint a picture that somewhere around .036% of gun owners/yr are in the "irresponsible" camp, +/- .002% for margin of error.
I do agree, it should be talked about, we can learn from others' mistakes and lessen the frequency. We should also talk about it when people use them correctly in self defense, or training, IDPA, etc, because that is a lot more frequent and we can learn from good examples as well.
Thanks for doing the homework - this was my general feeling too
I think there's a big problem with responsible gun owners defending irresponsible gun owners. Like, there's a knee-jerk reaction when someone says guns are dangerous, even though you're supposed to always act as though they are dangerous.
Current estimates say there are 475 million guns in the US and around 330 million people. About 1.5 guns per person on average.
You just never hear about the responsible gun owners. ;)
The most responsible gun owner in the world is still armed for violence because they're afraid.
Civilian guns are for pussies.
Says someone who apparently has the privelege to not feel unsafe in their own home...
I used to be like you, never thought I'd own a gun, then, when I moved to the big city, I had an apartment across the street from a row of houses.
The houses were all owned by the same person who rented them out and each one had problems. Arguments, fights, drugs, pitbulls running loose, one person in particular we called "the crazy lady across the street."
One day I'm watching a live news broadcast and I'm like "Oh, shit, it's the crazy lady across the street!" Looked out the window, yup, there's the news van.
It turned out, her ex husband is this asshole:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_Weaver_III
So, yeah, I feel better having a gun in the house. Because you can TRY calling 9-1-1 here, but really if you need to defend yourself, you're on your own.
https://www.newsnationnow.com/on-balance-with-leland-vittert/portland-safety-commissioner-asks-residents-not-to-call-911/
I used to live next to a neighbor who tried to kill me twice. I was poor, in a poor neighborhood, with shitty utilities and actively-hostile police. My home has been broken into, there was violence outside of my house, and my neighbor got arrested for meth.
I just don't live in fear, because I'm not a coward.
Acknowledging you live in a dangerous situation and taking steps to improve your chances if something should happen isn't living in fear. Nor is it cowardly.
Buying a gun as a civilian, for the purposes of defense, is inherently an act of fear. That's inarguable.
If you think you'll have a reasonable chance of needing it that isn't fear. It's just being prepared. If you are in a situation where a gun is warranted there really aren't better alternatives.