You can’t even pay people to have more kids
These countries tried everything from cash to patriotic calls to duty to reverse drastically declining birth rates. It didn’t work.
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If history is any guide, none of this will work: No matter what governments do to convince them to procreate, people around the world are having fewer and fewer kids.
In the US, the birth rate has been falling since the Great Recession, dropping almost 23 percent between 2007 and 2022. Today, the average American woman has about 1.6 children, down from three in 1950, and significantly below the “replacement rate” of 2.1 children needed to sustain a stable population. In Italy, 12 people now die for every seven babies born. In South Korea, the birth rate is down to 0.81 children per woman. In China, after decades of a strictly enforced one-child policy, the population is shrinking for the first time since the 1960s. In Taiwan, the birth rate stands at 0.87.
My wife and I are well to do in the US, with a good household income that probably puts us in the top 2% or some shit. And to maintain the sort of life that used to be considered “middle class”, we need all of that income for our family of 4. Which means that we both work. We would have liked more kids. But there is only so much time to go around. Fuck are we supposed to do, have another kid and hire a nanny? Fuck is the point of that, we wouldn’t even be parenting.
You want more kids? Give people more time. Which means LESS WORK and BETTER CHILDCARE OPTIONS.
Not to mention better healthcare! Healthcare costs are the primary reason US citizens go bankrupt. Kids get sick, adults get sick, and if one of the adults in the house gets sick and can't help bring in money for the kids then the entire household essentially goes from upper/middle to lower or bankrupt. If a kid gets very sick, oftentimes one of the parents has to stop working to argue every single claim that insurance would be paying but doesn't, and call every department of every doctors office or hospital to get an itemized bill and get it lowered to a reasonable cost rather than them asking for a blank check. I'm afraid of having a sick kid and losing my job to their healthcare organization (note: not their healthcare directly, but calling insurance asking them to pay for life saving care, then calling hospitals asking why a small bandage is $1200), losing my house to bankruptcy after healthcare costs, and losing any semblance of future career due to time off and losing myself.
Word. What we really need is a societal overhaul. Not gonna happen, tho.
Absolutely. Taking healthcare costs off our backs would go a long way. The birth of my first kid absolutely wiped out the savings I had built up since getting out of school, and that was WITH insurance coverage. Six years of careful planning and saving just flushed down the toilet in an instant. There's just no financially-responsible way to manage the risk of a hospital bill that could range from hundreds to hundreds of thousands depending on what does or doesn't go according to plan, not to mention the following 18+ years of unknowns. It's kind of a wonder that people are still having as many kids as they are these days.
Not to mention insurance won't tell you what they cover until you have someone done. "Do you cover this" could mean they cover 10%, 70%, or 100%, and they don't even know what their system will approve. This is with good insurance. Unless you are apart of the top 5% then everyone can be wiped from you very quickly without notice. Eat the rich anyone?
Not that we had much choice along the way, but you're right, we were almost completely in the dark about how much anything was going to cost as it happened. Various groups were mailing us bills for the full amounts even before insurance had settled their portion. Nobody in the entire insurance and billing game is on your side.
It was a shock to my system to hear Americans setting aside 10k+ for delivering a child. What the fuck? For a country that claims it wants kids it sure as hell doesn't act like it.
Here is the Canadian version: you go to the hospital, you deliver, you get the after care, then you go home. Cost to you: $0 (unless you came in an ambulance, then expect somewhere between $150-400?)
In the US ambulance can cost another $10k. They are local companies that have good connections with the local police stations, and the only way to contact them is through the police, and you can only get whichever has the best relationship with the police. I say police because to get an ambulance is the same emergency number. There is usually no competition and they can charge whatever they feel like and insurance may not cover much if anything. For an ambulance, there is literally no way to know how much you need to pay, because insurance determines if you were really experiencing an emergency or if you could have driven, and being unconscious isn't enough to determine an emergency in many cases.
So much freedom. Freedom to die from preventable causes. Freedom to experience bankruptcy often. So much freedom.
I am you. I have two kids and fucking hell our expenses are getting out of control. Fortunately we spaced them out enough that only one is in day/preschool. But it's still basically impossible to justify my wife being employed with only our youngest kid's expenses. Looking at $2.5k per month of childcare expenses for one kid makes me want to give up.
My state, Oregon, passed a leave law that is currently saving our lives. Extra 4 weeks of leave that can be taken intermittently. We are financially fucked the moment we are out of our state leave. For reference I have an MS in ME and work in manufacturing. And my wife is one of the highest paid dental assistants I'm aware of.
Yes. This and this fella's income.
Space between your kids and wait until they are ready to care for the other kids?
I hope you don't have children that you're forcing to be babysitters. I know people who did that growing up, their relationship with their parents is... not good.
What are you talking about?
I'm 6 years older than my sister and when we were younger, I have babysitted her every day after school until my parents came home a few hours later. That's just not a traumatic thing at all.
My parents had nine kids. The eldest still doesn't talk to them, ten years after he left. Our two experiences must mean that the average reality is somewhere in between. Resentment sounds about right. /s
Isn't it neat how we can have different experiences? Just because you are happy with your specific situation does not mean that certain actions won't tend to cause resentment in the average home.
I think you'd agree that there is a stark difference between "babysitting your one sister" and "babysitting 8(!!) Children". Yet, the comment I replied to just said broadly "letting one sibling babysit will traumatize that child and they will hate their parents" which I refuted as not being the universal truth the comment made it out to be. "Don't cover your toddler's nose" or "don't let a toddler's head fall back or forwards" are such truths. "Babysitting leads to resentment of parents" isn't.
Also, babysitting and "caring for" are different things. While I absolutely agree that you should not be in a parenting role as sibling and being responsible for the upbringing of your younger siblings, babysitting usually means "watch for a few hours and keep the status quo so the child doesn't starve or kill itself while the parents are away", nothing more.
Besides, you closed your reply implying that I'm the outlier here because my experiences aren't doing what would happen in "an average home". Now don't get.me wrong here but isn't my home a little more average than your's? Like... Going by the numbers in the very post above.
It's funny, i thought the exact opposite; your comment was saying that kids babysitting kids will never cause resentment, and the comment you replied to was obviously saying that kids baysitting kids is a bad habit to get into, but not terrible in moderation.
I am well aware that my family situation is an outlier, i just understood your comment to mean that kids babysitting kids will never cause resentment, so one counter example was enough to make my point, which was that you need to be careful about choosing to have enough kids so they can 'parent themselves'.
Yeah, my last sentence sounds wrong in hindsight. Should have said "That is just not a traumatic thing to me at all" or "That was not a traumatic thing at all.
I absolutely agree that a line should be drawn where you expect children to prematurely... well... mature and be parents/adults.
In my case, I was 12 or so and my sister was 6, so we both came home from school and were alone until our parents got home from work. They never expected me to make her do things or something. When we hadn't done our homework when they got home, the consequence was that the homework needed to be done still and we couldn't go out and play. That's it. My job was to make sure my sister got a warm meal (reheated; pre-cooked by my parents) and basically didn'T die. They asked us to do certain things while they were away (vacuum the living room or something) but they never really made a fuss when we failed to do it. They just made us do it later then.
The problem is that a child is the responsibility of the parents, and the parents alone. Could you have said no if you wanted to? You should have been able to, every time.
I personally take offense in strangers who tell me how my family life which I'm rather fond of "should have" been. You have no right to stamp your ideas of family onto me and my relatives. Period.
That isn’t happening. Stop trying to play the victim.
Oh? So uranibaba did not postulate their opinion on how responsibilities in a family "should be" and formulated them as absolute rights or wrongs? Did we read the same comment?
Uranibaba did not postulate an opinion. He stated a fact:
“a child is the responsibility of the parents, and the parents alone”
Parents created the child. So they are the ones responsible. It’s the same reason parents can be held legally accountable for the actions of their children. Just because parents can force someone else to raise their children doesn’t mean it’s ok.
He also indirectly told me how my parents "should have" handled the situation. No knowledge on what was on, nothing. But a "uhm, you know that your parents were wrong, don'tcha?"
I'm a freshly baked father myself and have noticed how easily many people just blame parents with wholesale statements and without the slightest bit of knowledge about how being a parent is and how raising a child actually works, yet everybody claims to be an expert.
I think we need to clear something up here. The term in question was "babysitting" not "raising". Just as I would not expect someone to "raise my children" when I hired a babysitter, why would that term be different when siblings do it?
I was 12, my sister was 6 and we were home alone after school until my parents came home from work. That's "babysitting" to me.
The fact that ppl just assumed I meant something completely different and started the judgement train speaks for itself.
I apologize for offending you, but your earlier comment seemed to imply that a child should reasonably share a parents responsibility of their children.
My oldest daughter is a bit over 6 years older than our baby. I might ask her to do something similar to what you are describing. Most people on here seem to think helping the family out equals trauma because birthing someone automatically means you retain full responsibility for them existing. It's more complicated than that and I think the thing people are mad about is choosing to have kids in a way that you expect them to take care of each other.
For me, this always went under "caring for each other" which is something children should learn and practice. Besides, we always had a grand old time. They always made absolutely sure there was food to be warmed up, so that was.taken care of. After that, I'd play computer games upstairs, she'd watch cartoons downstairs and then shout for me when she heard someone coming. Then we'd tell our parents how we practiced piano or some shit and they knew what was up, yet let us go on.