Tolerance is not a moral requirement but a social contract.
By social contract I mean it's an agreement that I will tolerate you as long as you tolerate me.
Islamic groups literally want some sections of western society dead (queer community etc) and other sections subjugated (women). They violate the contract and we shouldn't be accepting of that.
tldr: We shouldn't pander to people who think a book burning means someone should die.
Not all Muslims are like that though. Most are very level headed and tolerant of others and their religions too. If all Muslims were how you described, with how many there are in the world there would be literal chaos every day.
Level headed people shouldn't be out of their mind because some nutjob burns a book.
Pretty sure people who are like you write aren't keen on getting blasphemy laws back.
You described the fanatical extremists that are not the majority of that religion. I also don't know what you're trying to get at with that last part. I just think people are too quick to lump everyone in one bag that doesn't fully represent them just because it does for a few of them.
There are absolute heinous people who could be demographically similar to me as well I imagine, I don't want to be lumped in with them. Just like how a lot of Muslims around the world will think that too.
Banning the burning or "desecration" of a specific genre of books because it rallies the feelings of highly religious people is pandering to the views of the religious extremists. That is my point.
People who are level headed about their religion won't demand that a state forbids to burn a book. And they won't get worked up by it to the point they think this is something that should be handled on a state level.
I have more of an issue that the people burning are doing it themselves to try and incite something. I couldn't care less to be honest that it's about religious stuff or of a specific religion. It goes both ways, just don't be pricks towards other people and none of that eye for an eye shit either.
Doesn't really matter what the motivation is. Burning a book does not justify violence in response. You can have pure wonderful motivations or fuck awful ones neither would change what was done.
Sure, but I have received a few messages from Muslims--and only Muslims--threatening to overtake Western civilization so that I'll be put in my place. I don't know of any other group that does that.
Right, but you didn't receive an email from every Muslim in the entire world. And I could think of a few Christian nutjobs that go crazy, like how a lot are against gay people and send them to camps to stop them from being gay.
My overall point doesn't require that every single Muslim do that. If a small fraction of them are making these threats, it hints at an underlying belief system and related attitudes of an agenda against the West.
What does the Quran say they are supposed to do to apostates?
There is literal chaos every day.
Completely agree. I've lived in Malaysia and they're pretty chilled there. Some places though Islam gets pretty full on. Check out Islamabad or Tehran sometime - yikes. Nothing like seeing a march of people chanting, 'Death to the west!' and flaying themselves bloody while doing it to realise Islam ramps up.
Protesting against those who impede on your right to self-determination and your right to trade freely with the rest of the world is completely understandable. Especially when the entity enforcing the sanctions and making threatening statements conversely makes so much noise about "liberal" values - the right to free trade, democracy etc.
Geeze yeah the Iranians I saw certainly weren't protesting. They just wanted war and blood. It's hard to explain the real face of Islam unless you see it first hand - check it out sometime!
It's spooky to see how Islam changes Iranians - they're usually the kindest, most open minded and welcoming people. The Islamists though...wow
The west is the party that wants war and blood. The Iranians just want to defend themselves. Your hypocrisy is through the roof.
You look at Palestine and then say "oh those Hamas guys, they just hate the west for no reason aside from Islam. It has nothing to do with them being oppressed."
Western liberals are not shouting death to Iran at every rally nor are they conducting escalatory actions that are not proportional. There is a distinctive difference. Sanctions are ramped up and down in direct response to rhetoric and violent actions by proxies around the middle east. You are apparently blind to these.
The west actively boycots Iran and prevents it from engaging in trade. They have bombed an Iranian general at an airport without being in war.
Iran is the party here that unironically is defending itself. The west is the agressor.
An Iranian theocratic general in Iraq that was absolutely in no way involved in the destabilisation and insurgency in Iraq. He was just there for holiday. Wake up. If that wasn't enough for you then maybe the active supply and support of Russia against Ukraine is. I suppose those Iranian Soldiers that were hit in Ukraine were there for the beaches then?
I addressed all of this in my original comment concerning proxies and proportional responses.
Iran sides with anyone who is against the west right now and from their point of view they are completely justified.
America bombed one of their Generals without provocation and is actively boycotting them.
America doesn't give a shit about Ukraine either, they are about to drop them and fuck them over just like they did to the Kurds.
The West has ravaged the middle east and Africa to steal natural resources.
All democracies were assassinated to install American puppets in the middle east and French and British ones in Africa. (remember the South African Apartheid???)
What we are seeing in Palestine today is what the west (first mostly Britain and France, now also America) has been doing for a century now.
Iran sides with anyone who is against the west right now and from their point of view they are completely justified.
Yes and you do realize how that supports my narrative, right?
America bombed one of their Generals without provocation and is actively boycotting them.
See your own comment above for provocation.
America doesn't give a shit about Ukraine either, they are about to drop them and fuck them over just like they did to the Kurds.
No you, also fuck you for thinking we don't care. Some of us care too much.
The West has ravaged the middle east and Africa to steal natural resources.
Natural resources that we let the locals control...
All democracies were assassinated to install American puppets in the middle east and French and British ones in Africa. (remember the South African Apartheid???)
Democracies are perpetually at odds with liberal values. I'm not going to discuss the nuances with someone as black and white as you.
What we are seeing in Palestine today is what the west (first mostly Britain and France, now also America) has been doing for a century now.
If you think that's bad, you should see literally every war ever involving a city.
Putin has killed less Ukranian civilians since his invasion than israel has done in a month.
You're actually comparing bombing a concentration camp with 2 million people to "city warfare". This is Nazi apologism tier mental gymnastics. You should be ashamed of your racism but you're proud of it.
Putin has killed less Ukranian civilians since his invasion than israel has done in a month.
The fact that you seriously wrote this is legitimately funny to me. You are so far up the Russian propaganda hole that there's no recovering you.
It is a city. A concentration camp is something that is made for production and absolutely involves disarmament. This does not meet a single definition unless you are basing your entire worldview off Russian state sponsored media.
There's no need to shout death to anyone when your policies cause death. Or when your military spending is greater than everyone else's combined. Or when you have a legacy of causing death en masse, on a whim.
I guess your solution would be for all restrictions on Iran to be lifted? Honestly I'd love that too. They are somewhat counter productive and the poverty they cause in turn causes extremists.
The harsh truth though is that if the world stopped looking for a year or two Iran would do exactly what they've said they'd do....several nuclear bombs going off in Israel and probably elsewhere.
The theocracy there is seriously unhinged - again you should take a look for yourself.
(Also I'm not American nor does their military spending eclipse all other countries - and almost every country has a legacy of death so careful pointing fingers)
The lie that Iran would suddenly launch rockets at Israel is tired and old. It sounds too much like the old Cold War accusations leveled at the Soviet Union that were nothing but projection.
Iran's theocracy is no more unhinged than their counterpart in the United States - those who push for the liberalization of global markets so as to allow American capital interests to cannibalize the planet, for the good of mankind, of course...
America is currently unrivaled in its legacy of carnage, both at home and abroad. At least two genocides at home and countless wanton killing sprees and invasions abroad - in the name of "democracy", "free markets", "liberty" and the other beloved slogans of Uncle Sam.
If anyone should be mistrusted in this equation it is the entity that has a track record of invading sovereign nations, supporting genocide at home and abroad and pushing economic policies that have an extensive track record of failure and extreme human suffering.
Fascinating! Who do you think is lying about Iran exactly? You can, at any time, google one of the many, many videos of Iranian officials stating they want to wipe out Israel. Are they lying?
I'd post a link but honestly there's no point as you wouldn't watch it.
There's the saying, 'You can wake someone who's sleeping but not someone pretending to be asleep '.
You're welcome to elaborate? I feel I speak not from prejudice but from experience having lived and travelled widely in the Muslim world.
Say you have a bunch of Nazi grizzly bears living outside and around your village.
They don't do fuck all to the people of your village. In fact, some are actually coming through the village sometimes, but they don't hurt anyone. They're just Nazi fucks. But they enjoy your village and they sometimes fertilize your parks.
Then someone says, these fucking grizzly bears are Nazis, goddammit, imma burn piles of "Mein Kampf" as a protest!
So they do, and all the grizzly bears get provoked, enter the village, and start attacking all the people.
Now, there's a whole bunch of people on both sides of this theoretical situation who will say this is black and white and in their favor -- how dare they burn our holy book! How dare they say we can't burn whatever we like in our own village!
But it's not black and white. It's gray af. It's freaking #777.
If you don't provoke them, there's no problem in the village. Sometimes it's enough knowing you have the right to do something, and too much to actually do it, because actually doing it creates a whole fucking heap of problems to your fellow villager, whereas not doing it would spare them these problems.
With great power comes great responsibility. Same thing with great freedoms. We have a bunch of freedoms. Let's not be stupid with them, lest they be taken away.
Word salad
I knew a lot of people can't comprehend this situation fully, but I will keep saying it until at least someone with some IQ gets it.
IQ tests are pseudoscience
Intelligence, then.
Define intelligence.
Enough to understand that things aren't always black and white, with some basic critical/analytical thinking.
You are the one making a declaration that blasphemy should be illegal
It shouldn't be, but we made it so by abusing our rights.
Rights can't be abused. And I am sorry you are afraid of an invisible man in the sky
Tolerance is not a moral requirement but a social contract.
By social contract I mean it's an agreement that I will tolerate you as long as you tolerate me.
Islamic groups literally want some sections of western society dead (queer community etc) and other sections subjugated (women). They violate the contract and we shouldn't be accepting of that.
tldr: We shouldn't pander to people who think a book burning means someone should die.
Not all Muslims are like that though. Most are very level headed and tolerant of others and their religions too. If all Muslims were how you described, with how many there are in the world there would be literal chaos every day.
Level headed people shouldn't be out of their mind because some nutjob burns a book. Pretty sure people who are like you write aren't keen on getting blasphemy laws back.
You described the fanatical extremists that are not the majority of that religion. I also don't know what you're trying to get at with that last part. I just think people are too quick to lump everyone in one bag that doesn't fully represent them just because it does for a few of them.
There are absolute heinous people who could be demographically similar to me as well I imagine, I don't want to be lumped in with them. Just like how a lot of Muslims around the world will think that too.
Banning the burning or "desecration" of a specific genre of books because it rallies the feelings of highly religious people is pandering to the views of the religious extremists. That is my point.
People who are level headed about their religion won't demand that a state forbids to burn a book. And they won't get worked up by it to the point they think this is something that should be handled on a state level.
I have more of an issue that the people burning are doing it themselves to try and incite something. I couldn't care less to be honest that it's about religious stuff or of a specific religion. It goes both ways, just don't be pricks towards other people and none of that eye for an eye shit either.
Doesn't really matter what the motivation is. Burning a book does not justify violence in response. You can have pure wonderful motivations or fuck awful ones neither would change what was done.
I don't disagree
https://lemmy.world/post/9383590?scrollToComments=true
Sure, but I have received a few messages from Muslims--and only Muslims--threatening to overtake Western civilization so that I'll be put in my place. I don't know of any other group that does that.
Right, but you didn't receive an email from every Muslim in the entire world. And I could think of a few Christian nutjobs that go crazy, like how a lot are against gay people and send them to camps to stop them from being gay.
My overall point doesn't require that every single Muslim do that. If a small fraction of them are making these threats, it hints at an underlying belief system and related attitudes of an agenda against the West.
What does the Quran say they are supposed to do to apostates?
There is literal chaos every day.
Completely agree. I've lived in Malaysia and they're pretty chilled there. Some places though Islam gets pretty full on. Check out Islamabad or Tehran sometime - yikes. Nothing like seeing a march of people chanting, 'Death to the west!' and flaying themselves bloody while doing it to realise Islam ramps up.
Protesting against those who impede on your right to self-determination and your right to trade freely with the rest of the world is completely understandable. Especially when the entity enforcing the sanctions and making threatening statements conversely makes so much noise about "liberal" values - the right to free trade, democracy etc.
Geeze yeah the Iranians I saw certainly weren't protesting. They just wanted war and blood. It's hard to explain the real face of Islam unless you see it first hand - check it out sometime!
It's spooky to see how Islam changes Iranians - they're usually the kindest, most open minded and welcoming people. The Islamists though...wow
The west is the party that wants war and blood. The Iranians just want to defend themselves. Your hypocrisy is through the roof.
You look at Palestine and then say "oh those Hamas guys, they just hate the west for no reason aside from Islam. It has nothing to do with them being oppressed."
Western liberals are not shouting death to Iran at every rally nor are they conducting escalatory actions that are not proportional. There is a distinctive difference. Sanctions are ramped up and down in direct response to rhetoric and violent actions by proxies around the middle east. You are apparently blind to these.
The west actively boycots Iran and prevents it from engaging in trade. They have bombed an Iranian general at an airport without being in war.
Iran is the party here that unironically is defending itself. The west is the agressor.
An Iranian theocratic general in Iraq that was absolutely in no way involved in the destabilisation and insurgency in Iraq. He was just there for holiday. Wake up. If that wasn't enough for you then maybe the active supply and support of Russia against Ukraine is. I suppose those Iranian Soldiers that were hit in Ukraine were there for the beaches then?
I addressed all of this in my original comment concerning proxies and proportional responses.
Iran sides with anyone who is against the west right now and from their point of view they are completely justified.
America bombed one of their Generals without provocation and is actively boycotting them.
America doesn't give a shit about Ukraine either, they are about to drop them and fuck them over just like they did to the Kurds.
The West has ravaged the middle east and Africa to steal natural resources.
All democracies were assassinated to install American puppets in the middle east and French and British ones in Africa. (remember the South African Apartheid???)
What we are seeing in Palestine today is what the west (first mostly Britain and France, now also America) has been doing for a century now.
Yes and you do realize how that supports my narrative, right?
See your own comment above for provocation.
No you, also fuck you for thinking we don't care. Some of us care too much.
Natural resources that we let the locals control...
Democracies are perpetually at odds with liberal values. I'm not going to discuss the nuances with someone as black and white as you.
If you think that's bad, you should see literally every war ever involving a city.
Putin has killed less Ukranian civilians since his invasion than israel has done in a month.
You're actually comparing bombing a concentration camp with 2 million people to "city warfare". This is Nazi apologism tier mental gymnastics. You should be ashamed of your racism but you're proud of it.
The fact that you seriously wrote this is legitimately funny to me. You are so far up the Russian propaganda hole that there's no recovering you.
It is a city. A concentration camp is something that is made for production and absolutely involves disarmament. This does not meet a single definition unless you are basing your entire worldview off Russian state sponsored media.
There's no need to shout death to anyone when your policies cause death. Or when your military spending is greater than everyone else's combined. Or when you have a legacy of causing death en masse, on a whim.
I guess your solution would be for all restrictions on Iran to be lifted? Honestly I'd love that too. They are somewhat counter productive and the poverty they cause in turn causes extremists.
The harsh truth though is that if the world stopped looking for a year or two Iran would do exactly what they've said they'd do....several nuclear bombs going off in Israel and probably elsewhere.
The theocracy there is seriously unhinged - again you should take a look for yourself.
(Also I'm not American nor does their military spending eclipse all other countries - and almost every country has a legacy of death so careful pointing fingers)
The lie that Iran would suddenly launch rockets at Israel is tired and old. It sounds too much like the old Cold War accusations leveled at the Soviet Union that were nothing but projection.
Iran's theocracy is no more unhinged than their counterpart in the United States - those who push for the liberalization of global markets so as to allow American capital interests to cannibalize the planet, for the good of mankind, of course...
America is currently unrivaled in its legacy of carnage, both at home and abroad. At least two genocides at home and countless wanton killing sprees and invasions abroad - in the name of "democracy", "free markets", "liberty" and the other beloved slogans of Uncle Sam.
If anyone should be mistrusted in this equation it is the entity that has a track record of invading sovereign nations, supporting genocide at home and abroad and pushing economic policies that have an extensive track record of failure and extreme human suffering.
Fascinating! Who do you think is lying about Iran exactly? You can, at any time, google one of the many, many videos of Iranian officials stating they want to wipe out Israel. Are they lying?
I'd post a link but honestly there's no point as you wouldn't watch it.
There's the saying, 'You can wake someone who's sleeping but not someone pretending to be asleep '.
Bad and basic take.
You're welcome to elaborate? I feel I speak not from prejudice but from experience having lived and travelled widely in the Muslim world.
Say you have a bunch of Nazi grizzly bears living outside and around your village.
They don't do fuck all to the people of your village. In fact, some are actually coming through the village sometimes, but they don't hurt anyone. They're just Nazi fucks. But they enjoy your village and they sometimes fertilize your parks.
Then someone says, these fucking grizzly bears are Nazis, goddammit, imma burn piles of "Mein Kampf" as a protest!
So they do, and all the grizzly bears get provoked, enter the village, and start attacking all the people.
Now, there's a whole bunch of people on both sides of this theoretical situation who will say this is black and white and in their favor -- how dare they burn our holy book! How dare they say we can't burn whatever we like in our own village!
But it's not black and white. It's gray af. It's freaking
#777.If you don't provoke them, there's no problem in the village. Sometimes it's enough knowing you have the right to do something, and too much to actually do it, because actually doing it creates a whole fucking heap of problems to your fellow villager, whereas not doing it would spare them these problems.
With great power comes great responsibility. Same thing with great freedoms. We have a bunch of freedoms. Let's not be stupid with them, lest they be taken away.
Word salad
I knew a lot of people can't comprehend this situation fully, but I will keep saying it until at least someone with some IQ gets it.
IQ tests are pseudoscience
Intelligence, then.
Define intelligence.
Enough to understand that things aren't always black and white, with some basic critical/analytical thinking.
You are the one making a declaration that blasphemy should be illegal
It shouldn't be, but we made it so by abusing our rights.
Rights can't be abused. And I am sorry you are afraid of an invisible man in the sky
https://lemmy.world/post/9383590?scrollToComments=true
Accurate and good take.
Nah.
Well argued
Same.
¯\_ಠ_ಠ_/¯
Another expert on Appeasement. Sorry thought you would appreciate that picture