No. You don't get to tell me that I have to vote for Biden when he's not doing anything to earn my vote. He's allowing Israel to carry out a genocide. So he's not actually less evil than Trump. You're just upset because Trump's shitty policies will impact you more than Biden's shitty policies. Biden has the lower approval ratings than Trump did at this point. He has not earned a second term.
How about the Dems run a candidate who isn't dog shit? I vote for Dems as a form of harm reduction, but they aren't reducing harm anymore. So what's in it for me? Dems haven't not done anything about the supreme court, student loans, or threats to democracy and they are largely supporting the actions of Israel. If I'm right, and this is a genocide (I am), then voting for anyone who supports it would be an evil act. They're going to have to make some changes if they want to earn the votes of people who don't want to see a genocide carried out on our watch with our bombs.
That said, it would be a real problem if Trump won. So if that happens, I hope you'll be willing to place the blame where it belongs: with the Democrats. They are the ones doing nothing to earn our votes. Biden isn't even campaigning.
Okay. But Palestine still gonna be fucked. I get that you don't care if Palestinians die. But I do. So I get to not vote for the guy currently enabling their genocide. "Trump would do it too" so you admit it's bad? Demand better from your politicians you weakling.
If you think Palestine is still fucked either way then choosing to empowerer Trump makes even less sense. I think it's a fact that Trump will be far worse for Palestinians than Biden, but even if we assume they will both be just as terrible on this issue, Trump is also terrible on every issue. If your choice is terrible and completely terrible, logically you should go with terrible. The other choice is even worse.
How could trump be worse?what is worse than arming the Israelies while they engage in genocide? Unless you don't believe that's what is happening. In which case,you have been misinformed. Genocide is genocide. Why am I the asshole here for not wanting to vote for someone who is enabling a genocide? Why isn't Biden the asshole for enabling the genocide or not stepping down?
ah, so the single-issue voter. actually it's not even single-issue, that's just giving up status quo in order to effectively vote for worse than status quo. that's called having a narrow view on the world, you know the middle east isn't the only thing that exists in american politics right? there are still other things to improve on rather than just saying "oh israel-palestine conflict is going to shit either way therefore why even bother, might as well fuck up every other political issue, it's useless if we can't have this one win".
grow up, you're effectively casting all your friends and loved ones into the flames with your stubbornness, and casting palestinians into the flames considering trump is going to rail way harder against palestine than biden does. it's not like not voting means no palestinians die, why do you have this delusion that you have blood on your hands if you vote but no blood on your hands if you don't. it helps nobody and improves nothing except your own ego because you get to say "oh well i didn't vote for genocide!" even though you practically voted for more genocide.
It's not my only issue with Biden, but it is my biggest and the fact that it doesn't even seem to register as a problem for you is very telling. You don't care about anything that's happening to anyone outside of the US huh? Your world is that small? Get a grip. We all draw our lines in the sand somewhere and when the line is crossed, that's usually the thing we're going to yell about. I think "I can work with you on anything other than genocide related crimes" is pretty fucking lenient, don't you?
alright then my guy, what does trump do better than biden that makes you want him to win instead? because you seem so happy to give trump an extra vote. what would trump do better outside of the US since that seems to be where your concern lies? how will not voting for biden achieve your goals and make the situation in palestine any better?
you seem to think that voting for biden is "working with him", which is just plain delusional. that's completely outside of the scope of general elections. you're not relevant to biden, or any politicians, he doesn't know you exist, don't think of yourself as so important that you think you're working with them. what you're doing is casting a vote to lessen future pain.
if biden were the only candidate, if it were a 1 party state and the only person able to run was biden, then yeah i'd agree with you. voting means nothing. but that's simply not the case. you are genuinely either stupid or evil if you'd rather give your vote for trump rather than swallow your pride and at least vote to maintain some semblance of liberty (at least what's left of it). a world where democrats lose the election is a world where you won't even have the right to criticize your president, nor your government's genocide.
bottom line is by not participating in the 2 party system in the presidential election, you're not somehow making a morally correct decision that means you have no blood on your hands. you WILL have blood on your hands if republicans win, no matter how much you try to convince yourself that you totally owned those genociders by basically voting for the worse genocider. your view is extremely short-sighted and you care about your own pride more than the rights of LGBT people, black & hispanic people, etc.
I don't think trump does anything better than Biden and I'm not reading the rest of your shitty comment because you started out by putting words in my mouth. I never said that Trump did anything better than Biden. I don't want Biden to be president. His actions have been disqualifying.
If you can't see how Trump is worse than Biden I don't know what to say. It should be self evident at this point that a second Trump presidency will be a disaster for the world. As far as Palestine goes, Biden has pissed off Netanyahu and there's a whole diplomatic row unfolding right now because Biden said there has to be a two state solution and Netanyahu says no. I guess you're unfamiliar with Trump somehow but based off his previous behavior he would be more likely to help Netanyahu and encourage him to do even worse things. Trump certainly wouldn't be getting into a public spat where he's insisting on a Palestinian state, he's definitely not going to do anything to stop what Israel is doing, or even to discourage them.
I don't believe this "row" with Netanyahu will amount to anything, which I am basing on Biden's record of always backing Israel every single time. You and I agree about Trump. We've clearly come to different conclusions about Biden. I don't think we are going to get any further in this conversation.
Also, the idea that Trump "certainly" wouldn't get in a public spat when he is, in fact, Donald Trump and public spats are exactly his MO is fucking laughable.
I'm not saying Trump doesn't get in public spats, just that he wouldn't get into one with Netanyahu over Palestinian statehood. The idea of Trump arguing with Netanyahu in defense of the rights of Palestinians is absurd on its face.
How could trump be worse?
Trump (to black Americans) in 2016: What do you have to lose?
You're basically just spouting Trump talking points.
Trump would obviously not only support Israel's position he would sell them more weapons...wouldn't care at all about the Palestinian human rights angle and he would allow Russia to walk into Ukraine and that's just the "foreign relations" plan...domestically, he's planning on setting up concentration camps for the homeless and undocumented.
So he would do what Biden is doing but more... Justify voting for him however you want. Biden is just as supportive of Israel as Trump would be.
Biden is just as supportive of Israel as Trump would be.
Exactly...so that's why Trump is worse for everything including the Israel issue.
Okay. Gaza isn't my only issue with Biden. And no Trump doesn't align with me on those issues either, but if Trump doesn't get my vote by default just because I dislike Biden, then the same should follow for Biden. I'm sorry that you don't like how I, one person that you do not know, am planning to vote. However, I will not change my plans because you say I have to. You have not given me a reason to vote for Biden. Just reasons not to vote for Trump. And that's not only not a winning strategy forever, but its getting fucking annoying at this point. Not a single person here has said been able to point to any actual thing that makes Trump better on this issue. Biden didn't do anything to fix the issues with the court with the first two years that he had. He dropped the ball on student loan debt relief. I could give you other examples of my frustrations with Biden. But I'm not going to waste my time. Because you'll just say "Trump will be worse, if you want change, vote for Dems." But dems don't make changes because they want to hold onto power. That is how they always operate in my opinion. You are free to feel differently, but I have based that opinion on 36 years of life and watching them operate. You won't get the change you want out of democrats. You'll get more of the same.
So please, stop telling people what they have to do with their votes. We don't all agree that things are going so super, duper well right now. Dems don't listen to progressives, there aren't any parties on the actual left who can win, i have no one to vote for. And yes, I'm mad at democrats about it because they lie about being progressives. And I mean literally. Jon Fetterman ran a progressive campaign and now openly states that he's not progressive and drapes himself in the Israeli flag so that he can get those sweet, sweet AIPAC dollars. But by all means, keep voting blue no matter who and tell yourself that your not like MAGA Republicans, because at least you have the illusion of choice.
But dems don’t make changes because they want to hold onto power. That is how they always operate in my opinion. You are free to feel differently, but I have based that opinion on 36 years of life and watching them operate. You won’t get the change you want out of democrats. You’ll get more of the same.
The reason they don't make much change happen is much more complex than that, but you're entitled to your opinion.
Other people have also lived for 30+ years and don't have the same reductionist take, so like, that's just like your opinion man.
So please, stop telling people what they have to do with their votes.
I don't give a shit what you do with your vote, but if you want to be regarded as anything approaching reasonable, it makes no sense at all to say "oh it doesn't matter at all which party I vote for because my exact preferences are not represented in this election".
You have the freedom to be unreasonable, and I have the freedom to tell you that that's exactly what you're being.
Ultimately no politician alone will be able to change the things that need changing, but a couple of choice politicians in the right offices will go a long way toward making things markedly worse.
And dems will never give that to you. If they wanted to, they would have done so by now. But you're entitled to you're belief that I have simply thrown my hands up instead of wrestling with this question for months. Voting for Biden will just make life hell for different people. Not fewer, in my view.
So if you're cool with me telling you that you're acting like an asshole, then go ahead and tell me what to do
But don't act surprised when people get pissed at you.
I think this reply got lost. It's likely difficult to manage your inbox because you're typing out walls of text to a dozen different accounts right now.
Also, if you can't regard me as a reasonable person for not wanting to vote against my own beliefs and interests, then you absolutely do give a whole lot of shits about what I do with my vote. You give so many shits, that some people might even call it unreasonable that you can't let a grown person make up their own mind.
You give so many shits, that some people might even call it unreasonable that you can’t let a grown person make up their own mind.
I really don't give a shit as stated before. There is a reason why people like yourself get so absolutely blown in half by a simple meme like the one that started this shit fest of a thread...I personally think that it's because there's still a little part of you that still knows you're behaving petulantly, and you think by typing out walls of text to strangers on the Internet in response, you'll somehow be able to convince that part of you that you're right.
EDIT: Yeah if the walls of text don't do it, meaningless down votes definitely will. 😉
Not arming the Israeli's and letting Iran try to start a war it cannot win, which would result in a domino effect of failed middle eastern states, tens of millions of deaths, and tens of millions of war refugees.
Oh but by all means burn the fucking planet down and destroy democracy for 350,000,000 Americans because you want everyone to know how super sad you are over 25,000 avoidable deaths.
The fuck? So just let Israel kill civilians. Cool. I was wrong. You're not a psychopath. You're someone who would have gone along with the Nazis.
No you are incorrect. The Nazis didn't warn anyone before doing actual carpet bombing of civilians.
Israel warns people before it bombs. Look it up.
And then they bombed the safe areas. Look it up. You're wrong about this. The ICJ has agreed to continue the case. They are clearly convinced that there is a plausibility that Israel has committed genocide. Do you think you're smarter than the 17 judges sitting on the ICJ for this case?
I will read it and see where my prediction of how the case would be disposed of on the pleadings was flawed.
In light of the high casualties, a preliminary injunction probably makes sense. I bet Israel is already in compliance with it. I'll comment again after I read it this weekend.
Saw you talking shit in another thread. You ever get around to reading this? Or maybe you're too afraid to realize that you're wrong.
I sure did. I even replied to you about it. What parts jump out at you as significant?
Also, I've gone through my replies and your comments. You may have responded to someone else, but not to me.
The issuing of preliminary orders means that they have deemed the risk of genocide in Gaza at the hands of the Israeli government to be plausible. The judges voted overwhelming in agreement with that ruling. One judge voted for the provisional measures based solely on the question of intent and the quotes by Israeli leaders.
Should probably give South Africa's case a read as well. 84 pages of facts that are pretty damning for Israel that were convincing enough for these judges. Maybe your bias presented you from believing the facts before your eyes?
I did. 70 of the pages are circular reasoning and the worst allegations are attributed to "reports."
The only question it raised in my mind is why is South Africa is doing Iran's bidding.
More Palestinians will die under Trump. All he does is kiss dictator ass. Trump is going to let Netanyahu ethnically cleanse the entire Gaza Strip.
I get that you don’t care if Palestinians die. But I do.
You're a liar. Since this is all you seem to care about, know this, you're going to have blood on your hands if you refuse to vote. I refuse to let you have your bullshit moral high ground. I'm voting for democracy in this next election. There will be nothing but genocide from here on out if America becomes a fascist dictatorship, both at home and abroad. Millions more people will die if Trump becomes president. If millions of Palestinians dying doesn't matter to you, then you don't care about the Palestinians.
You're a liar. Biden is losing in the polls because of this exact issue. If anyone cared about beating Trump, replacing him would be a priority.
Biden won in New Hampshire and he wasn't even on the ballot. Sounds like he's going to do fine. I think people will come to their senses about this. Genocide doesn't justify allowing fascists to take power and do more genocide.
Because its against two people have no name recognition. Its not hard to figure out why no one went out to vote for Williamson or Phillips when most people don't even know who they are.
Some might say it’s the weakling that can’t make the right decision to vote for the lesser evil even if they don’t like them.
Like I said in the last reply, you get to vote however you like. But if you publicly share your choice, others are free to comment on it.
There it is! The right decision! See and I think you're making the wrong decision. Aren't perspectives fun?
Letting fascism win is the objectively wrong decision. It's not a different perspective, you aren't thinking.
Letting genocide continue is the objectively wrong decision. So I have two objectively wrong decisions. What do?
Vote for the candidate whose election will result in the least amount of genocide. Millions of people dying under Trump is worse than the thousands of people who have died under Biden. If you cared this about the Palestinians, saving millions of lives would be a straightforward math problem.
The least amount of genocide for whom? Who's lives do I value over thr others? The ones that are most like mine?
For human beings? When Trump was in office all he did was pander to dictators. I don't see why he wouldn't do exactly the same again. Trump is going to let Netanyahu ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip, let Putin invade Europe, let Xi invade Taiwan and the Indo-Pacific, and let Kim invade South Korea. Not to mention Trump is going to ethnically cleanse immigrants from the US. He's going to round them up into camps first. Trump is going to be bad for all of us.
Bro I don't care about Palestine that much right now, nothing we can do there, that's on Israel, Iran and the middle east, you better look in your own fkn back yard because dictatorship is just around the corner while everyone is worried about the next marvel movie and causes they don't really have any power to effect.
We've been selling Israel weapons while they declare exactly what they want to do. What the fuck are you talking about? Biden has gone around Congress twice to sell weapons to Israel. But sure. Nothing we can do. Get fucked.
Of course nobody can tell you who you have to vote for.
But regardless of your choice and your reasons, the math of the votes in our stupid system does mean that voting for anybody but Biden, including voting for nobody, helps Trump or his Republican replacement.
If you don’t care about that, that’s fine. Some might argue that you SHOULD care, but that’s a different conversation. The voting decision is a private one that’s yours alone, but understanding how the choices affect the outcome is good for everybody.
I do care about those things. But I also care about Biden not being president for different, equally valid, equally moral, reasons. Also for pettiness sake, he fucking said he'd be a one term president before he ran in 2020 and we should fucking hold him to that but no one fucking remembers it. I cannot bring myself to vote for a man who has said and done the things he had said and done. So if I care about those things as I "should" and if I also care about doing something about the runaway supreme court and not arming a genocidal right wing government (just to name a couple of my objections to Biden's presidency), who do I vote for? Do I just give Biden another 4 years because the other guy sucks? Even though I know that it means that he will allow a genocide to be carried out and join wars to defend that genocide which will lead to untold deaths?
Like, even in your comment, while you tell me it's a personal decision, you're still laying it on a bit thick and its clear what you think I should do with my vote.
Since we’re talking about the general election, I’m looking at it in a pragmatic cause and effect way. We ARE going to get either the R or D nominee at the end of the election. If you literally do not care who gets elected, and you morally can’t throw support behind either, then a third party or non-vote is the right choice for you.
And while I’m not really trying to hide that I would 100% vote against Trump if he’s the nominee, I’m trying to phrase this all in a way that is very neutral. I’ve gone out of my way to not say you’re a fool or that you’re throwing away your vote. Like I said above, if they are literally the same to you, then voting for neither is the correct choice to represent your views.
When it comes to my personal views and voting decision, I’m not a Biden fan, but the difference between the conservative status quo Democrats we’ve been offered lately, and the MAGA controlled Republican Party, is so great in my eyes that I have no question about voting against Trump regardless of how exciting or lame the Democrat is. This isn’t how I want it to be. The two party death grip is the result of how our elections are structured. Changing that system is the dream, but we need the two parties to implement it, so yeah.
I feel like the folks in the good timeline got Bernie in 2016 and saw some of the benefits people in other developed countries enjoy.
Do I just give Biden another 4 years because the other guy sucks?
Yes. The choice is one or the other so you pick the least bad option. You're not voting on whether or not to do a genocide, that's not what this election is deciding. If you genuinely care about the Supreme Court, it's fucked up because of Trump and if he wins he will stack it even further. And do you really think Trump is going to sell fewer weapons to murderous right wing governments than Biden will? Again, the choice is one or the other so you either vote for Biden or you are serving to empower Trump. You don't have to love Biden or feel good about voting for him, but please recognize that an even worse scenario will unfold if Trump wins.
No. That is a false dichotomy, as I have said to literally everyone else who has tried to use that argument. There are other options here. The DNC's and/or Joe Biden's unwillingness to explore those options doesn't make them not options. It just means we need to push them harder. Your unwillingness to do so does not mean that the options don't exist. I am not required to subscribe to your way of viewing politics.
We live in a two party system. There are two candidates who have a real chance to win the presidential election. This has been true for the entire history of US politics. This is not a way of viewing politics, it's historical fact. Alternate facts aren't an opinion, they're lies.
And I'm saying if Dems want to win, they need to run a different guy. That's not even me, its the polls.
Unfortunately, it's a bit too late to switch candidates now. It's an election year. Withholding our votes won't result in better candidates in the next election. In fact in this case there won't be a next election if Trump wins. We need to politically engaged for the next four years if we want a better candidate in 2028. Which I do. So I'm going to vote for Biden since he isn't going to destroy democracy for personal gain.
Its literally not though? Are the primaries over?
Biden has already won the Idaho and New Hampshire primaries. It would take a major upset or him dying to get someone else the Democratic nomination at this point.
Not if Biden steps down and endorses a replacement that doesn't endorse a genocide.
I was hoping Biden would honor his promise to be one term president. It's clear he's not going to do that. Trump will definitely endorse genocides that will kill many more people than have died so far.
okay, then welcome your next dictator Donald Trump and all that implies (Gilead like conditions, rescending civil and gender rights, requiring Christian worship or prison/execution, an end to all journalism and only Trumpian little red books where you pledge allegiance to him every day or get reported to the police)
And I will thank dems for running centrists while Gilead kills me for a trans queer person. Dems aren't helping prevent Gilead as much as you think.
That said, it would be a real problem if Trump won. So if that happens, I hope you’ll be willing to place the blame where it belongs: with the Democrats. They are the ones doing nothing to earn our votes. Biden isn’t even campaigning.
Biden is governing. He's doing the job he was elected to do. Perhaps that's enough to earn some votes? Or are votes only earnt by rallies and advertisements?
In any case, it's completely silly to blame the Democrats for losing if you don't vote for them yourself. If you prefer Democrats over republicans, then you have to vote for them. Even though they aren't perfect. If you don't vote, then it is totally unreasonable to blame anyone else for getting an undesired outcome. Not voting implies that you have no preference.
(And yet again, this is another case where 'ranked choice' voting / preferential / instant-runoff would make this whole situation a lot easier. USA could really use some serious electoral reform.)
Also, what if I don't think Biden did what I elected him to do?
I don't currently prefer democrats over Republicans. I think they are equally harmful in different ways. What do I do? I agree that Republicans are wrong on everything, but Dems are wrong on enough things, and majorly so, that I don't think that they can be reformed. RCV is a pipe dream for the US at large. Especially with dems in positions of power. They haven't historically been willing to give up power once they have it.
Vote however you want. It's your choice. If you prefer Republicans, then vote for them. I'm just saying that if you choose not to vote for Democrats, it's silly to then go on to blame the Democrats for Trump being in power. 'Blame' implies that you are unhappy with the outcome, but it is effectively an outcome that you yourself chose with your vote.
If you don't want Trump to win, then you should choose to vote against him. If you don't, you yourself are the one to blame. (That said, if you are happy to have that demented tyrant as your president, then go ahead and vote for him. It's your choice.)
If Dems need my vote to win, then they need to run a candidate that doesn't support genocide in Palestine. If they can't or won't do that, then they are forfeiting my vote. If they do that and lose, then they are the one's "at fault" for losing.
More Palestinians will die under Trump. The only logical choice is to choose the candidate whose election will result in fewer deaths.
Palestinians are dying under Biden right now. The logical choice is to try to get him to step down.
Trump will green light Netanyahu to fully ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip. Trump does whatever strongmen tell him to do. It is illogical to allow a candidate whose election will result in more Palestinian deaths to be elected through inaction. Especially when Trump will prevent future elections and thus deny us the ability to elect more progressive candidates in the future.
How is that different from what Biden has done?
Over two million people live in the Gaza Strip. So killing all of them is different by about two million people.
The ICJ disagrees. They believe it is plausible that Israel is committing genocide right now and they have issued preliminary orders to prevent further deaths. Do you think you know more about Israel's responsibilities under international law to prevent genocide than 17 judges sitting on the the ICJ? Do you believe that you know more than them? Or do you just take Israel at they're word.
Israel is committing genocide now under Biden. They will still be committing genocide under Trump. The difference is the number of people who will be killed.
Currently 26453 Palestinians have been killed. The Gaza Strip being completely ethnically cleansed would result in over 2 million deaths.
Although both are genocide. Allowing Trump to create a fascist dictatorship and green light the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians would a worse outcome. Netanyahu's cabinet members have made it clear his administration wants to remove all Palestinians from the Gaza Strip. It is in the interests of the Palestinians to prevent a fascist like Trump from taking office who will allow Israel to ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip. edit: typo
Biden has shown himself to be either unwilling or unable to reign in or stop Israel. They don't believe the US will do anything to stop them, and so far, they have been proven correct. The rhetoric under Biden will be different than under Trump. But the outcome will be the same. Sorry that I'm not appeased by a milquetoast centrist urging Israel to take it easy.
I think it's pretty obvious where the blame would be if Trump wins: the stupid folks who refused to vote out of principle. If it was possible that neither could win then your strategy could make sense. But there are ONLY 2 OUTCOMES. Requiring dems to earn your vote is unfortunately meaningless when the only other option is FAR WORSE YOU CRETIN OF INANE CONCLUSIONS.
That's simply not true. Biden has the option to step down and let a Democrat who isn't dog shit run in his place. He and the DNC are choosing not to do so. The election is months away. He can still back out if he wants. It is not Trump or Biden unless Dems refuse to listen to voters.
Talk about unrealistic.
Has an incumbent ever just bowed out due to pressure from the fringe?
Do you think a new, unknown candidate could drop into the race and have any chance against the right-wing cult that will 100% turn up to vote?
You're inability to imagine a scenario does not make it impossible. You gave me a false dichotomy, I gave you an explanation of why it was false. You don't have to like it. Nobody does. But they would have months to campaign. The primaries aren't even over yet, so it wouldn't theoretically cost then anything. Dems just need to do it. They've had since October. They're the ones making the choice here. They could make a different one.
But they won't. Because they care more about making sure the "right people" have power than representing their constituents or even doing what's right. This isn't the first time and it won't be the last.
It's called being realistic my dude. If you want further left politicians and policies, organize and turn out the vote. If you don't you get the most milquetoast people-pleasing centrist democrat ever because the DNC is trying to placate as many people as they can.
Have you seen what the right wing has done over the last decade or so with the Tea Party morphing into the Freedom Caucus? There are right wing groups showing up to school board meetings and running for city councils all across the country. They've mobilized and are going out and taking what they want and now the formerly "mainstream" Republicans are completely beholden to them and afraid of being primaried in the next off-year election.
The left needs to do the same thing over the next decade or two (or three), that's the only way we can actually win long term.
"get out the vote." We tried, they rigged it against Bernie twice.
Yeah I remember. I remember a lot of steam for Bernie and then a disappointing turn out as well.
Fuck Hillary but lets not pretend he was riding an overwhelming wave of support and a bunch of primaries were stolen from him. He consistently trailed her by like 30 points. I went to a couple of his rallies and donated so I remember, the fervor was nowhere near what MAGA has become right?
Also, that info was leaked by "Guccifer," a Russian asset, so I'd be wary basing too much on that.
Isn't it funny how you dismiss every thing that reflects poorly on the party you support? Despite the fact that the DNC did not dispute the contents? They sued over the release of the emails because they believe it interfered with the election. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't. But they don't deny the contents of the leaked emails themselves. I guess anything so that you can vote blue no matter who, huh?
I mean, fuck the DNC but there's no viable 3rd party I can support this cycle.
The left doesn't even exist in the U.S. How many active leftwing PACs or direct action groups can you name? Now how many rightwing ones? I gave and worked phones for Bernie. We need serious election reform, I agree.
I'm not some accelerationist who's hoping for a Trump win that might spur on some collapse and eventual revolution. I'd prefer the non-violent revolution please and for now that means voting for Biden.
I don't want Trump to be elected. But I won't have my vote held hostage by a party that does not represent me and actively works against progressive candidates from making any headway. If they want my vote, they have to come get it from me.
I don’t want Trump to be elected.
Then vote for Biden. Trump is a Republican. Republicans historically win with low voter turn out.
There can be another election with a more progressive candidate in four years if Biden wins this election. There cannot be any future elections in a fascist dictatorship.
No. Biden aids and abets genocide. How about Dems give me a better choice?
If you want to copy my words and spread them across the Internet, go right ahead.
Now bots are getting lazy ans want people do to their job for them?
Hey, if bots care about genocide, then they're probably better people than you. Have fun voting for Butcher Biden. I do not have to.
US Americans when they find out there are people living outside USA.
You responded to my comment about American politics calling me a bot because I have the nerve to not suck biden's dick. Why would I assume you were not in the US?
I was calling you a bot because of a rather suspicious account. And the world is big place my friend.
I don't comment on UK politics, despite the fact that I watch a British alternative media news source daily. I'm sorry, I just genuinely didn't expect someone to be calling me a bot (I may not have many comments, but they're fairly varied) and have them be from another country. You caught me off guard.
But I think its shitty that you think my account is suspicious. Sorry I couldn't transfer my Reddit account over so that you can see every comment I've made going back to 2010.
Three month account with single comment three month ago and then straight to a copypasta worthy political rent. Like what should I think?
US, politics affects Europe quite a bit - so kind of understandable.
I have 3 comments from before that "copypasta worthy political rant." You realize copypastas have to be copied from somewhere right? So all copypastas were at some point posted by a real person. Maybe think about that.
I get that US politics affects other countries. But why should you be attacking me as a bot off of one comment against a politician who isn't in your country? Like... You were an asshole. I'm sorry that I connected your behavior with my own country. You just act so much like one of us.
I have 3 comments from before that “copypasta worthy political rant.” You realize copypastas have to be copied from somewhere right? So all copypastas were at some point posted by a real person. Maybe think about that.
Interesting I don't see the other comments but they appear in the count. Might be from instances feddit does not fedderelise with or some bug.
You realize copypastas have to be copied from somewhere right? So all copypastas were at some point posted by a real person. Maybe think about that.
Sure, that's right - but there is also something in that initial text that makes people think, hey that's a copypasta lets spread it. Maybe think about this.
I get that US politics affects other countries. But why should you be attacking me as a bot off of one comment against a politician who isn’t in your country?
Again, I just found your initial comment funny - it sounded like a typical political copy pasta and my response was in no means targeted at specific politics. The bot assumption came after you answered and I looked at your comments and was even more of a joking manner.
Like… You were an asshole.
Pretty sure sometimes I am, like everyone else. Not sure it was this time. But I will agree that I jumped to conclusions and didn't engage you in a serious but rather attacked you based on my assumptions. Sorry about that, if you are not a bot and you expressed a genuine opinion that just sounded to me like a copy pasta - that would have been a bit of an asshole move on my side.
You just act so much like one of us.
Now I'm offended. /s But I also kind of deserve it.
Man it's crazy how these people think they can instill some false duty onto any leftist to "do the right thing" without actually weighing each of the choices carefully. They just see a D next to someone's name and think they must be the good guy, regardless of what they say.
Did we all forget about the kids in cages on the border? Or the lack of free healthcare/college? Did we forget about the union busting? Biden is not a good guy, he's just barely better than Trump. He's certainly better at hiding the heinous shit from everyone.
But yeah man, were all bad people and unamerican for wanting a better choice and hating our hand I guess?
Not unAmerica, just impractical and immature.
Explain to me how being reluctant to vote for one of two presidential candidates due to their policies and global politics is immature. Am I supposed to just say "well millions will die either way but at least sleepy Joe relieved some student debt?"
What's impractical is running a country off of the lesser of two evils vote.
No. You don't get to tell me that I have to vote for Biden when he's not doing anything to earn my vote. He's allowing Israel to carry out a genocide. So he's not actually less evil than Trump. You're just upset because Trump's shitty policies will impact you more than Biden's shitty policies. Biden has the lower approval ratings than Trump did at this point. He has not earned a second term.
How about the Dems run a candidate who isn't dog shit? I vote for Dems as a form of harm reduction, but they aren't reducing harm anymore. So what's in it for me? Dems haven't not done anything about the supreme court, student loans, or threats to democracy and they are largely supporting the actions of Israel. If I'm right, and this is a genocide (I am), then voting for anyone who supports it would be an evil act. They're going to have to make some changes if they want to earn the votes of people who don't want to see a genocide carried out on our watch with our bombs.
That said, it would be a real problem if Trump won. So if that happens, I hope you'll be willing to place the blame where it belongs: with the Democrats. They are the ones doing nothing to earn our votes. Biden isn't even campaigning.
Okay. But Palestine still gonna be fucked. I get that you don't care if Palestinians die. But I do. So I get to not vote for the guy currently enabling their genocide. "Trump would do it too" so you admit it's bad? Demand better from your politicians you weakling.
If you think Palestine is still fucked either way then choosing to empowerer Trump makes even less sense. I think it's a fact that Trump will be far worse for Palestinians than Biden, but even if we assume they will both be just as terrible on this issue, Trump is also terrible on every issue. If your choice is terrible and completely terrible, logically you should go with terrible. The other choice is even worse.
How could trump be worse?what is worse than arming the Israelies while they engage in genocide? Unless you don't believe that's what is happening. In which case,you have been misinformed. Genocide is genocide. Why am I the asshole here for not wanting to vote for someone who is enabling a genocide? Why isn't Biden the asshole for enabling the genocide or not stepping down?
ah, so the single-issue voter. actually it's not even single-issue, that's just giving up status quo in order to effectively vote for worse than status quo. that's called having a narrow view on the world, you know the middle east isn't the only thing that exists in american politics right? there are still other things to improve on rather than just saying "oh israel-palestine conflict is going to shit either way therefore why even bother, might as well fuck up every other political issue, it's useless if we can't have this one win".
grow up, you're effectively casting all your friends and loved ones into the flames with your stubbornness, and casting palestinians into the flames considering trump is going to rail way harder against palestine than biden does. it's not like not voting means no palestinians die, why do you have this delusion that you have blood on your hands if you vote but no blood on your hands if you don't. it helps nobody and improves nothing except your own ego because you get to say "oh well i didn't vote for genocide!" even though you practically voted for more genocide.
It's not my only issue with Biden, but it is my biggest and the fact that it doesn't even seem to register as a problem for you is very telling. You don't care about anything that's happening to anyone outside of the US huh? Your world is that small? Get a grip. We all draw our lines in the sand somewhere and when the line is crossed, that's usually the thing we're going to yell about. I think "I can work with you on anything other than genocide related crimes" is pretty fucking lenient, don't you?
alright then my guy, what does trump do better than biden that makes you want him to win instead? because you seem so happy to give trump an extra vote. what would trump do better outside of the US since that seems to be where your concern lies? how will not voting for biden achieve your goals and make the situation in palestine any better?
you seem to think that voting for biden is "working with him", which is just plain delusional. that's completely outside of the scope of general elections. you're not relevant to biden, or any politicians, he doesn't know you exist, don't think of yourself as so important that you think you're working with them. what you're doing is casting a vote to lessen future pain.
if biden were the only candidate, if it were a 1 party state and the only person able to run was biden, then yeah i'd agree with you. voting means nothing. but that's simply not the case. you are genuinely either stupid or evil if you'd rather give your vote for trump rather than swallow your pride and at least vote to maintain some semblance of liberty (at least what's left of it). a world where democrats lose the election is a world where you won't even have the right to criticize your president, nor your government's genocide.
bottom line is by not participating in the 2 party system in the presidential election, you're not somehow making a morally correct decision that means you have no blood on your hands. you WILL have blood on your hands if republicans win, no matter how much you try to convince yourself that you totally owned those genociders by basically voting for the worse genocider. your view is extremely short-sighted and you care about your own pride more than the rights of LGBT people, black & hispanic people, etc.
I don't think trump does anything better than Biden and I'm not reading the rest of your shitty comment because you started out by putting words in my mouth. I never said that Trump did anything better than Biden. I don't want Biden to be president. His actions have been disqualifying.
If you can't see how Trump is worse than Biden I don't know what to say. It should be self evident at this point that a second Trump presidency will be a disaster for the world. As far as Palestine goes, Biden has pissed off Netanyahu and there's a whole diplomatic row unfolding right now because Biden said there has to be a two state solution and Netanyahu says no. I guess you're unfamiliar with Trump somehow but based off his previous behavior he would be more likely to help Netanyahu and encourage him to do even worse things. Trump certainly wouldn't be getting into a public spat where he's insisting on a Palestinian state, he's definitely not going to do anything to stop what Israel is doing, or even to discourage them.
I don't believe this "row" with Netanyahu will amount to anything, which I am basing on Biden's record of always backing Israel every single time. You and I agree about Trump. We've clearly come to different conclusions about Biden. I don't think we are going to get any further in this conversation.
Also, the idea that Trump "certainly" wouldn't get in a public spat when he is, in fact, Donald Trump and public spats are exactly his MO is fucking laughable.
I'm not saying Trump doesn't get in public spats, just that he wouldn't get into one with Netanyahu over Palestinian statehood. The idea of Trump arguing with Netanyahu in defense of the rights of Palestinians is absurd on its face.
Trump (to black Americans) in 2016: What do you have to lose?
You're basically just spouting Trump talking points.
Trump would obviously not only support Israel's position he would sell them more weapons...wouldn't care at all about the Palestinian human rights angle and he would allow Russia to walk into Ukraine and that's just the "foreign relations" plan...domestically, he's planning on setting up concentration camps for the homeless and undocumented.
So he would do what Biden is doing but more... Justify voting for him however you want. Biden is just as supportive of Israel as Trump would be.
Exactly...so that's why Trump is worse for everything including the Israel issue.
Okay. Gaza isn't my only issue with Biden. And no Trump doesn't align with me on those issues either, but if Trump doesn't get my vote by default just because I dislike Biden, then the same should follow for Biden. I'm sorry that you don't like how I, one person that you do not know, am planning to vote. However, I will not change my plans because you say I have to. You have not given me a reason to vote for Biden. Just reasons not to vote for Trump. And that's not only not a winning strategy forever, but its getting fucking annoying at this point. Not a single person here has said been able to point to any actual thing that makes Trump better on this issue. Biden didn't do anything to fix the issues with the court with the first two years that he had. He dropped the ball on student loan debt relief. I could give you other examples of my frustrations with Biden. But I'm not going to waste my time. Because you'll just say "Trump will be worse, if you want change, vote for Dems." But dems don't make changes because they want to hold onto power. That is how they always operate in my opinion. You are free to feel differently, but I have based that opinion on 36 years of life and watching them operate. You won't get the change you want out of democrats. You'll get more of the same.
So please, stop telling people what they have to do with their votes. We don't all agree that things are going so super, duper well right now. Dems don't listen to progressives, there aren't any parties on the actual left who can win, i have no one to vote for. And yes, I'm mad at democrats about it because they lie about being progressives. And I mean literally. Jon Fetterman ran a progressive campaign and now openly states that he's not progressive and drapes himself in the Israeli flag so that he can get those sweet, sweet AIPAC dollars. But by all means, keep voting blue no matter who and tell yourself that your not like MAGA Republicans, because at least you have the illusion of choice.
The reason they don't make much change happen is much more complex than that, but you're entitled to your opinion.
Other people have also lived for 30+ years and don't have the same reductionist take, so like, that's just like your opinion man.
I don't give a shit what you do with your vote, but if you want to be regarded as anything approaching reasonable, it makes no sense at all to say "oh it doesn't matter at all which party I vote for because my exact preferences are not represented in this election".
You have the freedom to be unreasonable, and I have the freedom to tell you that that's exactly what you're being.
Ultimately no politician alone will be able to change the things that need changing, but a couple of choice politicians in the right offices will go a long way toward making things markedly worse.
And dems will never give that to you. If they wanted to, they would have done so by now. But you're entitled to you're belief that I have simply thrown my hands up instead of wrestling with this question for months. Voting for Biden will just make life hell for different people. Not fewer, in my view.
So if you're cool with me telling you that you're acting like an asshole, then go ahead and tell me what to do But don't act surprised when people get pissed at you.
I think this reply got lost. It's likely difficult to manage your inbox because you're typing out walls of text to a dozen different accounts right now.
Also, if you can't regard me as a reasonable person for not wanting to vote against my own beliefs and interests, then you absolutely do give a whole lot of shits about what I do with my vote. You give so many shits, that some people might even call it unreasonable that you can't let a grown person make up their own mind.
I really don't give a shit as stated before. There is a reason why people like yourself get so absolutely blown in half by a simple meme like the one that started this shit fest of a thread...I personally think that it's because there's still a little part of you that still knows you're behaving petulantly, and you think by typing out walls of text to strangers on the Internet in response, you'll somehow be able to convince that part of you that you're right.
EDIT: Yeah if the walls of text don't do it, meaningless down votes definitely will. 😉
Not arming the Israeli's and letting Iran try to start a war it cannot win, which would result in a domino effect of failed middle eastern states, tens of millions of deaths, and tens of millions of war refugees.
Oh but by all means burn the fucking planet down and destroy democracy for 350,000,000 Americans because you want everyone to know how super sad you are over 25,000 avoidable deaths.
The fuck? So just let Israel kill civilians. Cool. I was wrong. You're not a psychopath. You're someone who would have gone along with the Nazis.
No you are incorrect. The Nazis didn't warn anyone before doing actual carpet bombing of civilians.
Israel warns people before it bombs. Look it up.
And then they bombed the safe areas. Look it up. You're wrong about this. The ICJ has agreed to continue the case. They are clearly convinced that there is a plausibility that Israel has committed genocide. Do you think you're smarter than the 17 judges sitting on the ICJ for this case?
I will read it and see where my prediction of how the case would be disposed of on the pleadings was flawed.
In light of the high casualties, a preliminary injunction probably makes sense. I bet Israel is already in compliance with it. I'll comment again after I read it this weekend.
Saw you talking shit in another thread. You ever get around to reading this? Or maybe you're too afraid to realize that you're wrong.
I sure did. I even replied to you about it. What parts jump out at you as significant?
Also, I've gone through my replies and your comments. You may have responded to someone else, but not to me.
The issuing of preliminary orders means that they have deemed the risk of genocide in Gaza at the hands of the Israeli government to be plausible. The judges voted overwhelming in agreement with that ruling. One judge voted for the provisional measures based solely on the question of intent and the quotes by Israeli leaders.
*Edit: typo
Should probably give South Africa's case a read as well. 84 pages of facts that are pretty damning for Israel that were convincing enough for these judges. Maybe your bias presented you from believing the facts before your eyes?
I did. 70 of the pages are circular reasoning and the worst allegations are attributed to "reports."
The only question it raised in my mind is why is South Africa is doing Iran's bidding.
More Palestinians will die under Trump. All he does is kiss dictator ass. Trump is going to let Netanyahu ethnically cleanse the entire Gaza Strip.
You're a liar. Since this is all you seem to care about, know this, you're going to have blood on your hands if you refuse to vote. I refuse to let you have your bullshit moral high ground. I'm voting for democracy in this next election. There will be nothing but genocide from here on out if America becomes a fascist dictatorship, both at home and abroad. Millions more people will die if Trump becomes president. If millions of Palestinians dying doesn't matter to you, then you don't care about the Palestinians.
You're a liar. Biden is losing in the polls because of this exact issue. If anyone cared about beating Trump, replacing him would be a priority.
Biden won in New Hampshire and he wasn't even on the ballot. Sounds like he's going to do fine. I think people will come to their senses about this. Genocide doesn't justify allowing fascists to take power and do more genocide.
Because its against two people have no name recognition. Its not hard to figure out why no one went out to vote for Williamson or Phillips when most people don't even know who they are.
Some might say it’s the weakling that can’t make the right decision to vote for the lesser evil even if they don’t like them.
Like I said in the last reply, you get to vote however you like. But if you publicly share your choice, others are free to comment on it.
There it is! The right decision! See and I think you're making the wrong decision. Aren't perspectives fun?
Letting fascism win is the objectively wrong decision. It's not a different perspective, you aren't thinking.
Letting genocide continue is the objectively wrong decision. So I have two objectively wrong decisions. What do?
Vote for the candidate whose election will result in the least amount of genocide. Millions of people dying under Trump is worse than the thousands of people who have died under Biden. If you cared this about the Palestinians, saving millions of lives would be a straightforward math problem.
The least amount of genocide for whom? Who's lives do I value over thr others? The ones that are most like mine?
For human beings? When Trump was in office all he did was pander to dictators. I don't see why he wouldn't do exactly the same again. Trump is going to let Netanyahu ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip, let Putin invade Europe, let Xi invade Taiwan and the Indo-Pacific, and let Kim invade South Korea. Not to mention Trump is going to ethnically cleanse immigrants from the US. He's going to round them up into camps first. Trump is going to be bad for all of us.
Bro I don't care about Palestine that much right now, nothing we can do there, that's on Israel, Iran and the middle east, you better look in your own fkn back yard because dictatorship is just around the corner while everyone is worried about the next marvel movie and causes they don't really have any power to effect.
We've been selling Israel weapons while they declare exactly what they want to do. What the fuck are you talking about? Biden has gone around Congress twice to sell weapons to Israel. But sure. Nothing we can do. Get fucked.
Of course nobody can tell you who you have to vote for.
But regardless of your choice and your reasons, the math of the votes in our stupid system does mean that voting for anybody but Biden, including voting for nobody, helps Trump or his Republican replacement.
If you don’t care about that, that’s fine. Some might argue that you SHOULD care, but that’s a different conversation. The voting decision is a private one that’s yours alone, but understanding how the choices affect the outcome is good for everybody.
I do care about those things. But I also care about Biden not being president for different, equally valid, equally moral, reasons. Also for pettiness sake, he fucking said he'd be a one term president before he ran in 2020 and we should fucking hold him to that but no one fucking remembers it. I cannot bring myself to vote for a man who has said and done the things he had said and done. So if I care about those things as I "should" and if I also care about doing something about the runaway supreme court and not arming a genocidal right wing government (just to name a couple of my objections to Biden's presidency), who do I vote for? Do I just give Biden another 4 years because the other guy sucks? Even though I know that it means that he will allow a genocide to be carried out and join wars to defend that genocide which will lead to untold deaths?
Like, even in your comment, while you tell me it's a personal decision, you're still laying it on a bit thick and its clear what you think I should do with my vote.
Since we’re talking about the general election, I’m looking at it in a pragmatic cause and effect way. We ARE going to get either the R or D nominee at the end of the election. If you literally do not care who gets elected, and you morally can’t throw support behind either, then a third party or non-vote is the right choice for you.
And while I’m not really trying to hide that I would 100% vote against Trump if he’s the nominee, I’m trying to phrase this all in a way that is very neutral. I’ve gone out of my way to not say you’re a fool or that you’re throwing away your vote. Like I said above, if they are literally the same to you, then voting for neither is the correct choice to represent your views.
When it comes to my personal views and voting decision, I’m not a Biden fan, but the difference between the conservative status quo Democrats we’ve been offered lately, and the MAGA controlled Republican Party, is so great in my eyes that I have no question about voting against Trump regardless of how exciting or lame the Democrat is. This isn’t how I want it to be. The two party death grip is the result of how our elections are structured. Changing that system is the dream, but we need the two parties to implement it, so yeah.
I feel like the folks in the good timeline got Bernie in 2016 and saw some of the benefits people in other developed countries enjoy.
Yes. The choice is one or the other so you pick the least bad option. You're not voting on whether or not to do a genocide, that's not what this election is deciding. If you genuinely care about the Supreme Court, it's fucked up because of Trump and if he wins he will stack it even further. And do you really think Trump is going to sell fewer weapons to murderous right wing governments than Biden will? Again, the choice is one or the other so you either vote for Biden or you are serving to empower Trump. You don't have to love Biden or feel good about voting for him, but please recognize that an even worse scenario will unfold if Trump wins.
No. That is a false dichotomy, as I have said to literally everyone else who has tried to use that argument. There are other options here. The DNC's and/or Joe Biden's unwillingness to explore those options doesn't make them not options. It just means we need to push them harder. Your unwillingness to do so does not mean that the options don't exist. I am not required to subscribe to your way of viewing politics.
We live in a two party system. There are two candidates who have a real chance to win the presidential election. This has been true for the entire history of US politics. This is not a way of viewing politics, it's historical fact. Alternate facts aren't an opinion, they're lies.
And I'm saying if Dems want to win, they need to run a different guy. That's not even me, its the polls.
Unfortunately, it's a bit too late to switch candidates now. It's an election year. Withholding our votes won't result in better candidates in the next election. In fact in this case there won't be a next election if Trump wins. We need to politically engaged for the next four years if we want a better candidate in 2028. Which I do. So I'm going to vote for Biden since he isn't going to destroy democracy for personal gain.
Its literally not though? Are the primaries over?
Biden has already won the Idaho and New Hampshire primaries. It would take a major upset or him dying to get someone else the Democratic nomination at this point.
Not if Biden steps down and endorses a replacement that doesn't endorse a genocide.
I was hoping Biden would honor his promise to be one term president. It's clear he's not going to do that. Trump will definitely endorse genocides that will kill many more people than have died so far.
okay, then welcome your next dictator Donald Trump and all that implies (Gilead like conditions, rescending civil and gender rights, requiring Christian worship or prison/execution, an end to all journalism and only Trumpian little red books where you pledge allegiance to him every day or get reported to the police)
And I will thank dems for running centrists while Gilead kills me for a trans queer person. Dems aren't helping prevent Gilead as much as you think.
Biden is governing. He's doing the job he was elected to do. Perhaps that's enough to earn some votes? Or are votes only earnt by rallies and advertisements?
In any case, it's completely silly to blame the Democrats for losing if you don't vote for them yourself. If you prefer Democrats over republicans, then you have to vote for them. Even though they aren't perfect. If you don't vote, then it is totally unreasonable to blame anyone else for getting an undesired outcome. Not voting implies that you have no preference.
(And yet again, this is another case where 'ranked choice' voting / preferential / instant-runoff would make this whole situation a lot easier. USA could really use some serious electoral reform.)
Also, what if I don't think Biden did what I elected him to do?
I don't currently prefer democrats over Republicans. I think they are equally harmful in different ways. What do I do? I agree that Republicans are wrong on everything, but Dems are wrong on enough things, and majorly so, that I don't think that they can be reformed. RCV is a pipe dream for the US at large. Especially with dems in positions of power. They haven't historically been willing to give up power once they have it.
Vote however you want. It's your choice. If you prefer Republicans, then vote for them. I'm just saying that if you choose not to vote for Democrats, it's silly to then go on to blame the Democrats for Trump being in power. 'Blame' implies that you are unhappy with the outcome, but it is effectively an outcome that you yourself chose with your vote.
If you don't want Trump to win, then you should choose to vote against him. If you don't, you yourself are the one to blame. (That said, if you are happy to have that demented tyrant as your president, then go ahead and vote for him. It's your choice.)
If Dems need my vote to win, then they need to run a candidate that doesn't support genocide in Palestine. If they can't or won't do that, then they are forfeiting my vote. If they do that and lose, then they are the one's "at fault" for losing.
More Palestinians will die under Trump. The only logical choice is to choose the candidate whose election will result in fewer deaths.
Palestinians are dying under Biden right now. The logical choice is to try to get him to step down.
Trump will green light Netanyahu to fully ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip. Trump does whatever strongmen tell him to do. It is illogical to allow a candidate whose election will result in more Palestinian deaths to be elected through inaction. Especially when Trump will prevent future elections and thus deny us the ability to elect more progressive candidates in the future.
How is that different from what Biden has done?
Over two million people live in the Gaza Strip. So killing all of them is different by about two million people.
The ICJ disagrees. They believe it is plausible that Israel is committing genocide right now and they have issued preliminary orders to prevent further deaths. Do you think you know more about Israel's responsibilities under international law to prevent genocide than 17 judges sitting on the the ICJ? Do you believe that you know more than them? Or do you just take Israel at they're word.
Israel is committing genocide now under Biden. They will still be committing genocide under Trump. The difference is the number of people who will be killed.
Currently 26453 Palestinians have been killed. The Gaza Strip being completely ethnically cleansed would result in over 2 million deaths.
Although both are genocide. Allowing Trump to create a fascist dictatorship and green light the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians would a worse outcome. Netanyahu's cabinet members have made it clear his administration wants to remove all Palestinians from the Gaza Strip. It is in the interests of the Palestinians to prevent a fascist like Trump from taking office who will allow Israel to ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip. edit: typo
Biden has shown himself to be either unwilling or unable to reign in or stop Israel. They don't believe the US will do anything to stop them, and so far, they have been proven correct. The rhetoric under Biden will be different than under Trump. But the outcome will be the same. Sorry that I'm not appeased by a milquetoast centrist urging Israel to take it easy.
I think it's pretty obvious where the blame would be if Trump wins: the stupid folks who refused to vote out of principle. If it was possible that neither could win then your strategy could make sense. But there are ONLY 2 OUTCOMES. Requiring dems to earn your vote is unfortunately meaningless when the only other option is FAR WORSE YOU CRETIN OF INANE CONCLUSIONS.
That's simply not true. Biden has the option to step down and let a Democrat who isn't dog shit run in his place. He and the DNC are choosing not to do so. The election is months away. He can still back out if he wants. It is not Trump or Biden unless Dems refuse to listen to voters.
Talk about unrealistic.
Has an incumbent ever just bowed out due to pressure from the fringe?
Do you think a new, unknown candidate could drop into the race and have any chance against the right-wing cult that will 100% turn up to vote?
You're inability to imagine a scenario does not make it impossible. You gave me a false dichotomy, I gave you an explanation of why it was false. You don't have to like it. Nobody does. But they would have months to campaign. The primaries aren't even over yet, so it wouldn't theoretically cost then anything. Dems just need to do it. They've had since October. They're the ones making the choice here. They could make a different one.
But they won't. Because they care more about making sure the "right people" have power than representing their constituents or even doing what's right. This isn't the first time and it won't be the last.
It's called being realistic my dude. If you want further left politicians and policies, organize and turn out the vote. If you don't you get the most milquetoast people-pleasing centrist democrat ever because the DNC is trying to placate as many people as they can.
Have you seen what the right wing has done over the last decade or so with the Tea Party morphing into the Freedom Caucus? There are right wing groups showing up to school board meetings and running for city councils all across the country. They've mobilized and are going out and taking what they want and now the formerly "mainstream" Republicans are completely beholden to them and afraid of being primaried in the next off-year election.
The left needs to do the same thing over the next decade or two (or three), that's the only way we can actually win long term.
"get out the vote." We tried, they rigged it against Bernie twice.
Yeah I remember. I remember a lot of steam for Bernie and then a disappointing turn out as well.
Fuck Hillary but lets not pretend he was riding an overwhelming wave of support and a bunch of primaries were stolen from him. He consistently trailed her by like 30 points. I went to a couple of his rallies and donated so I remember, the fervor was nowhere near what MAGA has become right?
Also, that info was leaked by "Guccifer," a Russian asset, so I'd be wary basing too much on that.
Isn't it funny how you dismiss every thing that reflects poorly on the party you support? Despite the fact that the DNC did not dispute the contents? They sued over the release of the emails because they believe it interfered with the election. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't. But they don't deny the contents of the leaked emails themselves. I guess anything so that you can vote blue no matter who, huh?
I mean, fuck the DNC but there's no viable 3rd party I can support this cycle.
The left doesn't even exist in the U.S. How many active leftwing PACs or direct action groups can you name? Now how many rightwing ones? I gave and worked phones for Bernie. We need serious election reform, I agree.
I'm not some accelerationist who's hoping for a Trump win that might spur on some collapse and eventual revolution. I'd prefer the non-violent revolution please and for now that means voting for Biden.
I don't want Trump to be elected. But I won't have my vote held hostage by a party that does not represent me and actively works against progressive candidates from making any headway. If they want my vote, they have to come get it from me.
Then vote for Biden. Trump is a Republican. Republicans historically win with low voter turn out.
There can be another election with a more progressive candidate in four years if Biden wins this election. There cannot be any future elections in a fascist dictatorship.
No. Biden aids and abets genocide. How about Dems give me a better choice?
hope you don't mind those leopards chewing up your face.
New copypasta?
If you want to copy my words and spread them across the Internet, go right ahead.
Now bots are getting lazy ans want people do to their job for them?
Hey, if bots care about genocide, then they're probably better people than you. Have fun voting for Butcher Biden. I do not have to.
US Americans when they find out there are people living outside USA.
You responded to my comment about American politics calling me a bot because I have the nerve to not suck biden's dick. Why would I assume you were not in the US?
I was calling you a bot because of a rather suspicious account. And the world is big place my friend.
I don't comment on UK politics, despite the fact that I watch a British alternative media news source daily. I'm sorry, I just genuinely didn't expect someone to be calling me a bot (I may not have many comments, but they're fairly varied) and have them be from another country. You caught me off guard.
But I think its shitty that you think my account is suspicious. Sorry I couldn't transfer my Reddit account over so that you can see every comment I've made going back to 2010.
Three month account with single comment three month ago and then straight to a copypasta worthy political rent. Like what should I think?
US, politics affects Europe quite a bit - so kind of understandable.
I have 3 comments from before that "copypasta worthy political rant." You realize copypastas have to be copied from somewhere right? So all copypastas were at some point posted by a real person. Maybe think about that.
I get that US politics affects other countries. But why should you be attacking me as a bot off of one comment against a politician who isn't in your country? Like... You were an asshole. I'm sorry that I connected your behavior with my own country. You just act so much like one of us.
Interesting I don't see the other comments but they appear in the count. Might be from instances feddit does not fedderelise with or some bug.
Sure, that's right - but there is also something in that initial text that makes people think, hey that's a copypasta lets spread it. Maybe think about this.
Again, I just found your initial comment funny - it sounded like a typical political copy pasta and my response was in no means targeted at specific politics. The bot assumption came after you answered and I looked at your comments and was even more of a joking manner.
Pretty sure sometimes I am, like everyone else. Not sure it was this time. But I will agree that I jumped to conclusions and didn't engage you in a serious but rather attacked you based on my assumptions. Sorry about that, if you are not a bot and you expressed a genuine opinion that just sounded to me like a copy pasta - that would have been a bit of an asshole move on my side.
Now I'm offended. /s But I also kind of deserve it.
Man it's crazy how these people think they can instill some false duty onto any leftist to "do the right thing" without actually weighing each of the choices carefully. They just see a D next to someone's name and think they must be the good guy, regardless of what they say.
Did we all forget about the kids in cages on the border? Or the lack of free healthcare/college? Did we forget about the union busting? Biden is not a good guy, he's just barely better than Trump. He's certainly better at hiding the heinous shit from everyone.
But yeah man, were all bad people and unamerican for wanting a better choice and hating our hand I guess?
Not unAmerica, just impractical and immature.
Explain to me how being reluctant to vote for one of two presidential candidates due to their policies and global politics is immature. Am I supposed to just say "well millions will die either way but at least sleepy Joe relieved some student debt?"
What's impractical is running a country off of the lesser of two evils vote.