But the US should be allowed to put bases wherever it wants?
Yeah when we ask the government of that place, and they say yes, we should then feel free to do that.
The US "asks"
Look at the ruins left all over that region to see what happens to countries that don't cooperate.
They get overrun by the local threats the USA may have been able to help with? I mean, there's obviously nuance here, but you aren't using it either so
Don't waste your time. This user has gems like:
Liberals in America are just right wing anti-communists, they’re not leftists at all. As for Bernie, social-democracy is the moderate wing of fascism and that’s why he supports Biden’s genocide.
Both parties are evil because this is an evil country that must be stopped.
But I’m quite serious about hating America. No one should be president and we should do everything possible to make that a reality.
And told me that Russia is less corrupt and authoritarian than the USA. They ran away from that conversation once facts were laid out.
Ah, a tankie... has someone let in the hexbears again?
Actually I went to work and your post required too much to respond during a bathroom break.
I'll get to you this afternoon!
Looking forward to it. Especially where you'll come up with 6 million deficit in domestic murders akin to the Stalin Regime.
Or what compares to being imprisoned for 15 years for a blank protest sign or publicly opposing the war in Ukraine.
You brought up Stalin yourself in the conversation. Why suddenly cherry-pick date ranges now? Besides, Putin openly wrote in an essay how he wanted to go back to those good old days. With Rasputin-like friends like Dugin, no need to go back to the USSR to see that the Russian Federation yearns to go right back to that.
Honestly tho. ISIS was born in Abu Graib, a US run prison. The Taliban was a reaction to the warlords the US funded in the war against the USSR. Hamas has been funded by Israel, a US supported ally, for years. All the alternatives to Hamas in Gaza were suppressed. And this is just the middle east. The same pattern is repeated in South America and East Asia.
If I'm honest that's one occupation I'm fine with remaining illegal. Fuck the Assad regime, and fuck Russia.
Just so you know, that article you provided is made literally by the Kremlin state media, who just so happen to have bombed Syrian civilians relentlessly for years and have propped up the brutal dictator Assad for years.
Also considering how much Trump cozies up to Putin, I also don't give a damn what Donnie says.
Assad illegally gases Syrians
You sure chose the wrong hill to die on
Legacy media are really good manufacturing concent, not so good at correction stories though...
Journalist Aaron Maté Debunks Syrian Gas Attack Coverup At The UN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycuPvL5pA2M
Well, at least you didn't attack my source. Thank you for being decent.
You can look at what happens to countries that don't "coordinate"
They often crumble from internal sectarian violence. Or get overrun by Russian sock-puppets barrel-bombing and using chemical weapons against their own people. But ah, yes, while I opposed the Iraq invasion, Saddam was clearly a great guy and Iraq was thriving, right? Or how about Iran? No bases there! I'm sure the women just love their bastion of freedom from their US overlords, lol.
Iraq was better off before the invasion. Fact.
Also, do you think women get freedom when the US installs bases?
Iraq was better off before the invasion. Fact.
I don't think this is a fact. Let's look at a few metrics, starting with HDI:
Keep in mind though that there is no way of knowing how accurate official figures from the past were (this also goes for the numbers on human and economic development, of course). Also worth noting that the government itself could kill and maim with impunity back then:
I would admit that life in Iraq could be safer under Saddam Hussein compared to today, given that he kept a lid on especially religious conflicts, but this came with a big asterisk: Provided you didn't run afoul of the regime or provided the regime didn't think you did (no court of appeal, no independent judiciary, torture and murder are common - you can be the most loyal Baathist and still just be unlucky), provided you didn't have a pretty daughter (or were one) in a place where Saddam's son were looking for girls to rape, torture and murder, provided you weren't a member of a persecuted ethnic group, provided you didn't own something Saddam or his sons wanted from you, etc. The usual caveats of living under autocratic rule, with the added "insane son of dictator" factor (see also: what Kim Jong Il was up to in his younger days).
The upper estimates for the number of people killed under Saddam Hussein are about one million as well. Now what?
So America is about as bad as Saddam Hussein?
Then what was the fucking point? What did we do any of that for? Do you expect them to thank us?
Power, opportunism, thirst for war, corruption (not oil though). Plenty of reasons for this war.
Your logic has a flaw though: It's not like Saddam would have just stopped doing his thing in 2003 had he not been removed from power. The country was a powder keg anyway, so perhaps it would have ended up just like Syria eventually (I can't imagine the Arab Spring leaving it alone) - or perhaps we would have seen another war between it and Iran. Another possibility would have been Iraq attacking a neighbor other than Iran again, perhaps at a time when they weren't expecting a harsh American response (e.g. under a Democratic US presidency).
None of this excuses that Bush and Blair made up reasons to invade the country nor the incompetent handling of it afterwards that led to most of the up to one million dead post-Saddam, but let's not pretend that everything would have been rosy had the second Gulf War not happened.
perhaps it would have ended up just like Syria
Right, that just happened for no reason. Not like the US directly instigated the collapse of stability in the region. 🙄
let’s not pretend that everything would have been rosy had the second Gulf War not happened.
Let's not pretend I said that.
Why are you blaming Syria on America, even though it was internal unrest sparked by the Syrian government torturing a bunch of kids for anti-Assad graffiti? This resulted in increasingly larger protests, which were crushed with incredible violence by the regime, which in turn led to mass defections from the Syrian army as more and more soldiers were unwilling to kill their fellow citizens, creating factions that fought both against the Syrian government and among each other.
America caused none of this. In fact, it's the Syrian government that claimed foreign agents were responsible for the initial protests. It's not a good look to repeat this obvious and transparent lie.
Do you think the internal unrest came from nothing?
The Iraq invasion lead to over a million Iraqi refugees fleeing to Syria and the 2006 war between Lebanon and Israel (triggered by Israel's illegal occupation of Lebanese territory that only the US recognizes) which lead to a further 100,000 refugees feeling to Syria. Then, of course, there was the broader region with America "we came, we saw, he died, haha!" utterly destroying Libya and turning it from the most prosperous African country to one that has open slave auctions. America has utterly destroyed that region (the Middle East and North Africa, I mean), Syria is just another country on the chopping block (Yemen too, now. You like that too?)
Now, were there literal foreign agents that triggered the initial protests? Doubtful. Did America pour grease on the fire once it started? Obviously, it literally backed the opposition groups and inflamed the civil war! There were almost 20,000 air strikes! There was very clearly a regime change operation underway, even if the initial trigger was only indirectly from the US destroying the Middle East.
And did US intervention in Syria help? Or did it make everything worse? I think we both know the answer.
20 years more of Saddam rule? As much as the pretense for going into Iraq was bogus, the oppressed Shia population would beg to differ.
You're the one who told me to look at countries that don't coordinate with the US. I did. I'm not impressed. I look at countries like Germany today and by contrast, I am impressed. So are you impressed by Iran, Russia, North Korea? Or do you disagree with the likes of Jordan openly cooperating with the US to contain ISIS?
One of the dumbest fucking comments I've ever read on this platform..
Iraq can only finally start to recover now that it is asking the US military to leave.
Oh, but the US won't leave. You okay with that too?
Yeah I am. Have you been there? They're not ready.. exhibit a: every article about US bombings this week..
They don't want us there! What right do we have to decide if they are "ready"?
But the US should be allowed to put bases wherever it wants?
Yeah when we ask the government of that place, and they say yes, we should then feel free to do that.
The US "asks"
Look at the ruins left all over that region to see what happens to countries that don't cooperate.
They get overrun by the local threats the USA may have been able to help with? I mean, there's obviously nuance here, but you aren't using it either so
Don't waste your time. This user has gems like:
And told me that Russia is less corrupt and authoritarian than the USA. They ran away from that conversation once facts were laid out.
Ah, a tankie... has someone let in the hexbears again?
Actually I went to work and your post required too much to respond during a bathroom break.
I'll get to you this afternoon!
Looking forward to it. Especially where you'll come up with 6 million deficit in domestic murders akin to the Stalin Regime.
Or what compares to being imprisoned for 15 years for a blank protest sign or publicly opposing the war in Ukraine.
The USSR doesn't exist anymore
Also, here's a life sentence for weed
You brought up Stalin yourself in the conversation. Why suddenly cherry-pick date ranges now? Besides, Putin openly wrote in an essay how he wanted to go back to those good old days. With Rasputin-like friends like Dugin, no need to go back to the USSR to see that the Russian Federation yearns to go right back to that.
Yep, that sucks.
Russia is still worse.
War on trans and homosexual rights.
15 years for tweet just opposing Russia's aggressive act against Ukraine, or even a blank protest board.
Drug laws aren't too kind in Russia, either. Just see what happened to Brittney Griner or Marc Fogel.
Local threats the US created 🙄
Honestly tho. ISIS was born in Abu Graib, a US run prison. The Taliban was a reaction to the warlords the US funded in the war against the USSR. Hamas has been funded by Israel, a US supported ally, for years. All the alternatives to Hamas in Gaza were suppressed. And this is just the middle east. The same pattern is repeated in South America and East Asia.
Do they put them wherever they want, or in coordination with the local sovereign governments?
Well, they are still illegally occupying a third of Syria. https://www.algora.com/Algora_blog/2023/04/29/us-in-syria-the-forgotten-illegal-occupation
And ofcourse, this gem... https://youtu.be/U10p3Tn9V5Y?t=19
If I'm honest that's one occupation I'm fine with remaining illegal. Fuck the Assad regime, and fuck Russia.
Just so you know, that article you provided is made literally by the Kremlin state media, who just so happen to have bombed Syrian civilians relentlessly for years and have propped up the brutal dictator Assad for years.
Also considering how much Trump cozies up to Putin, I also don't give a damn what Donnie says.
Assad illegally gases Syrians
You sure chose the wrong hill to die on
Legacy media are really good manufacturing concent, not so good at correction stories though... Journalist Aaron Maté Debunks Syrian Gas Attack Coverup At The UN https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycuPvL5pA2M
Let's not act that there's been only one
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghouta_chemical_attack
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khan_Shaykhun_chemical_attack
Well, at least you didn't attack my source. Thank you for being decent.
You can look at what happens to countries that don't "coordinate"
They often crumble from internal sectarian violence. Or get overrun by Russian sock-puppets barrel-bombing and using chemical weapons against their own people. But ah, yes, while I opposed the Iraq invasion, Saddam was clearly a great guy and Iraq was thriving, right? Or how about Iran? No bases there! I'm sure the women just love their bastion of freedom from their US overlords, lol.
Iraq was better off before the invasion. Fact.
Also, do you think women get freedom when the US installs bases?
I don't think this is a fact. Let's look at a few metrics, starting with HDI:
https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/Iraq/human\_development/
Infant mortality rate:
https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/IRQ/iraq/infant-mortality-rate
GDP per capita (ignore the silly outlier):
https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/IRQ/iraq/gdp-per-capita
These basic figures suggest that a number of key aspects of life are indeed better than they were during the dictatorship.
The homicide rate is higher now:
https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/IRQ/iraq/murder-homicide-rate
Keep in mind though that there is no way of knowing how accurate official figures from the past were (this also goes for the numbers on human and economic development, of course). Also worth noting that the government itself could kill and maim with impunity back then:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde14/003/1996/en/
Freedom of the press is still pretty abysmal these days (and the page also touches on what you were likely mentioning the instability):
https://rsf.org/en/country/iraq
A report from 2002 on the state of affairs under Saddam's rule:
https://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/iraq/press.html
I would admit that life in Iraq could be safer under Saddam Hussein compared to today, given that he kept a lid on especially religious conflicts, but this came with a big asterisk: Provided you didn't run afoul of the regime or provided the regime didn't think you did (no court of appeal, no independent judiciary, torture and murder are common - you can be the most loyal Baathist and still just be unlucky), provided you didn't have a pretty daughter (or were one) in a place where Saddam's son were looking for girls to rape, torture and murder, provided you weren't a member of a persecuted ethnic group, provided you didn't own something Saddam or his sons wanted from you, etc. The usual caveats of living under autocratic rule, with the added "insane son of dictator" factor (see also: what Kim Jong Il was up to in his younger days).
Up to one million people are dead because of the War on Iraq. You spit on their graves when you say life is better.
The upper estimates for the number of people killed under Saddam Hussein are about one million as well. Now what?
So America is about as bad as Saddam Hussein?
Then what was the fucking point? What did we do any of that for? Do you expect them to thank us?
Power, opportunism, thirst for war, corruption (not oil though). Plenty of reasons for this war.
Your logic has a flaw though: It's not like Saddam would have just stopped doing his thing in 2003 had he not been removed from power. The country was a powder keg anyway, so perhaps it would have ended up just like Syria eventually (I can't imagine the Arab Spring leaving it alone) - or perhaps we would have seen another war between it and Iran. Another possibility would have been Iraq attacking a neighbor other than Iran again, perhaps at a time when they weren't expecting a harsh American response (e.g. under a Democratic US presidency).
None of this excuses that Bush and Blair made up reasons to invade the country nor the incompetent handling of it afterwards that led to most of the up to one million dead post-Saddam, but let's not pretend that everything would have been rosy had the second Gulf War not happened.
Right, that just happened for no reason. Not like the US directly instigated the collapse of stability in the region. 🙄
Let's not pretend I said that.
Why are you blaming Syria on America, even though it was internal unrest sparked by the Syrian government torturing a bunch of kids for anti-Assad graffiti? This resulted in increasingly larger protests, which were crushed with incredible violence by the regime, which in turn led to mass defections from the Syrian army as more and more soldiers were unwilling to kill their fellow citizens, creating factions that fought both against the Syrian government and among each other.
America caused none of this. In fact, it's the Syrian government that claimed foreign agents were responsible for the initial protests. It's not a good look to repeat this obvious and transparent lie.
Do you think the internal unrest came from nothing?
The Iraq invasion lead to over a million Iraqi refugees fleeing to Syria and the 2006 war between Lebanon and Israel (triggered by Israel's illegal occupation of Lebanese territory that only the US recognizes) which lead to a further 100,000 refugees feeling to Syria. Then, of course, there was the broader region with America "we came, we saw, he died, haha!" utterly destroying Libya and turning it from the most prosperous African country to one that has open slave auctions. America has utterly destroyed that region (the Middle East and North Africa, I mean), Syria is just another country on the chopping block (Yemen too, now. You like that too?)
Now, were there literal foreign agents that triggered the initial protests? Doubtful. Did America pour grease on the fire once it started? Obviously, it literally backed the opposition groups and inflamed the civil war! There were almost 20,000 air strikes! There was very clearly a regime change operation underway, even if the initial trigger was only indirectly from the US destroying the Middle East.
And did US intervention in Syria help? Or did it make everything worse? I think we both know the answer.
20 years more of Saddam rule? As much as the pretense for going into Iraq was bogus, the oppressed Shia population would beg to differ.
You're the one who told me to look at countries that don't coordinate with the US. I did. I'm not impressed. I look at countries like Germany today and by contrast, I am impressed. So are you impressed by Iran, Russia, North Korea? Or do you disagree with the likes of Jordan openly cooperating with the US to contain ISIS?
One of the dumbest fucking comments I've ever read on this platform..
Iraq can only finally start to recover now that it is asking the US military to leave.
Oh, but the US won't leave. You okay with that too?
Yeah I am. Have you been there? They're not ready.. exhibit a: every article about US bombings this week..
They don't want us there! What right do we have to decide if they are "ready"?
That's some white man's burden bullshit.