Estonia considers closing its border with Russia
kyivindependent.com
Estonia announced that the country may be forced to close its border crossing points with Russia due to increased migration pressures, Estonian Police and Border Guard announced on Feb. 13.
"In recent weeks, Russia has deliberately directed to the Estonian border groups of foreigners lacking the legal right to enter the European Union," the statement reads. "If these activities continue, we will be forced to close border crossing points to protect national security and public order, as has already been done in Finland due to migration pressure."
The Estonian government has noted an influx of migrants and asylum seekers from Russia over recent months.
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There are innocent civilians trying to flee Putin's regime. Civilians who want no part of his war. They should be allowed to seek asylum like any refugee.
Estonia is a tiny country of a little over a million people and we already took on the most Ukrainian refugees per population and we currently have issues housing them. If Russians need refuge in another country they need to look elsewhere.
Why can't Estonia send them elsewhere in the EU?
EU rules
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Regulation
Any law that prohibits people that are fleeing a war from entering a country is a pro-war inhumane law that shouldn't exist. It is only moral to break any law that stops you from saving someone's life. A lot of people like to imagine that during ethnic cleansing in their countries they would be heroes that shelter people in secret, but it is obvious that even people who consider themselves left-wing, value law (the will of the state) more than human life.
I'm just explaining, not defending the regulation. If you ask me, all borders are tools of oppression. The goal should be to have a world where anyone is free to go where they please and build a life where they want to be. I know there are problems with that, but let's at least agree that prohibiting people from moving to greener pastures is an imperfect solution that could be resolved without the violence inherent in borders as movement barriers (rather than borders delineating jurisdiction, which is fine)
I agree. Thank you then for your explaining. Sorry for misinterpreting your comment.
Then HELP them get to another country in stead of forcing them to stay in Russia where they might be forcibly enlisted or killed for opposing the war or just generally living in misery caused by the war as well as reactions to it.
If they are trying to cross the border here they would need to cross about 4 countries before getting anywhere where they can be accepted, Estonia does not have the resources to facilitate that.
There are also security concerns. In the early 2000nds Russia attempted to create a breakaway region in Estonia with an influx of Russian citizens. Viru county already has a high Russian population and we don't need a repeat of that.
If my country was at war, I would rather cross 4 countries then die in a war. It makes no sense to not give them a choice, claiming that you care too much about them to let them be inconvineced by the act of saving their lives.
And of course there are always security concerns when we are trying to help people save their lives. What about security concerns of Russians that are trying to flee? Are Estonian lives more valuable then Russian lives? Is it safer for everyone to forcefully keep as many people in region of war as possible? To let them forcfuly become soliders that will shoot at other people and arm people they are attacking so that someone has to die. Is it better to let all Russian citizens become soliders and either kill Ukranian soliders or die themselves in a war, then risk to let unarmed people in another country, because some of them, somehow, could be the bad guys, simply because they are from Russia. As if they are more likely to be dangeous than people from any other country.
A country will always prioritise its own citizens and help others only if there are resources available. I also absolutely expect citizens to flee from a country at war and I definitely expect countries to close their borders if they can't handle the influx of refugees.
There is definitely xenophobia towards Russians as well (700 years of slavery does that) and Estonia definitely will prioritise helping Ukrainian refugees but that doesn't change how limited the resources are currently now.
That makes no sense. If you let people in and give them your citiznship then they are your citizens as well. It is nationalism, ethinic background, not some organisational problem of a country. Estonia can easly handle the influx, that is the point, it is ridiculous to claim otherwise and it is highly immoral and racist to prioritize people of one nationality over other. Resources are fine, it is one of the richest countries in the World. It is dishonest and maniplative when all right-wing policies (such as this) talk about lack of resources when we are talking about helping the working class, but when you need to give tax cuts to the rich or spend money on military, then all of a sudden money flows.
Estonia is a tiny country of a little over a million people, the poorest state in the US is richer... I have no idea where you are getting that Estonia is wealthy.
Then let them pass through to the rest of the EU. In Europe there is a billion people. As for the wealth, I have no idea why you are comparing it to US. We are talking about whether they should be forced to stay in Russia and it is clear that per capita Estonia is richer then Russia.
There is no quarantee the next country over wants to let them through and if Estonia starts funneling people into other EU countries without permission Estonia would lose open borders to the rest of EU and any financial aid pretty much instantly which would hurt the people already here massively.
Yes, Estonia is richer by gdp than one of the most sanctioned countries running on a war economy. Not rich enough to take in everyone in Russia escaping Putin's war.
You can't expect a tiny poor country to help Russia's population while countries with more ability to help don't. As I said both China and US have the land and resources to take everyone, complain to them.
And Estonia could accept people that have their own finances or people that are allowed passage in other countires and etc. There are many ways to work on this if you actually care about these people to help and solve a problem. If all countries acted this way, I won't help because aren't helping enough, we are going to be in a big trouble. I would complain to US and China if this was a post about that and someone was defending their positions, we can turn this discussion as well into, ask others to help as well, instead of just defending this wrong decision by Estonia. Estonian government, if they really care, could put pressure on EU, China or US. You seem to be more focused on China and US, but reallisticly it is the EU that has funds as well and is closer. We should focus on pressure to EU to help house these people, or allow them passage or something.
Besides, I think it is morally unjustifiable to be dependent on EU support so much to help you with these things in order to keep stuff comfortable for already rich people in Estonia, instead of sharing with those less fortunate and help as much as you can. It is better to fight for wellbeing of all people and help what you can, instead of being afraid that you will be kicked out from a selfish EU (if they refuse to help and share this isssue, they are selfish).
The EU is not a federal government, it's a trade alliance, it has no power to make member countries accept refugees.
I agree with the idea that all countries should help all people but complaining that one tiny country that doesn't have the means to do so should be the first is the equivalent of blaming some individual who has like no climate impact for climate change because they can't afford an EV.
Ask the EU for help funding and coordinating it? I'm sure they have/are working on such projects already. If they aren't, they should be.
Currently there is no such funding available and a lot of hotels are already being used for Ukrainian refugees as actual refugee facilities are full so if they come here in the winter they will just die on the streets.
Even if all that wasn't the case there is a decent chance that this is organised by the russian government to try to create a breakaway region as they tried in the past and succeeded in other countries.
There is no funding avaliable for train tickets to other countries, but there is funding for train trasnport and manufature of guns to kill those people when they are forced to become soliders. There is no real concern about heir lives, just that somehow, the richest region in the World, EU, cant find funds for train tickets for citizens (if they are Russians). Better to let them kill and be killed in war, then pay for a ticket, that I am sure most can pay for by themselves. Just let them in if they have money for a ticket at least. That is a really weak excuse to force people to fight in a war.
And what is with this paranioa that they Russia is just sending millions of people to try to make a brakaway region in every country in Europe, instead of using those people in war. This propaganda, like most, is so contraditory and ridicolous. In one article they say, Russians don't have any more soliders, they are losing a war, in next, they have millions of people that they will send to your country to somehow take it over. It is a classic anti-imigrant logic where migrants are both too weak and too strong, depending on the arguement. Too lazy to work and yet take all your jobs. Too incompentent to fight authority in their own country, but competent enough to take over yours. War migrants are dangerous horrible people that are at the same time running away from a war, but somehow are flipped to be disgusied unarmed soliders at the same time.
Even if all of this could be true, that somehow they could create a breakaway region in another country, would it really be more moral to let them die in a war instead of giving them a region where they would have autonomy? What kind of warmongering is this? PS: Can you give any source of any country ever sending people to a region where there werent already siginficant portions of those populations and forming a breakaway region?
Why don't you help? Go fly to a Baltic state and explain to everyone you meet why it's imperative they let any Russians claiming to be fleeing settle into their countries.
I honestly can't see any reason why they would object to that.
So go on, HELP THEM.
They are also forced to fight in a war for Russia. But it seems that a lot of people who consider themselves left-wing, don't actually care about stopping a war, but to kill as many enemy soliders. They are pretending that their actions are motivated by compassion for victims of war, while actually they would let as many as people needed to die to hurt the person they hate as much as possible. It is hate, not love, that dictates their decisions.
Estonia can definitely afford spare a little bit of goodwill imo.
And it has, Estonia accepted the most Ukrainian refugees per population. Currently all the refugee facilities are still full and the government is paying hotels to keep refugees. If Russian refugees come here in the winter they would likely die as there is nowhere to house them.
It's not the same issue lop
So the solution is to decide in their name to keep them in country of war, where you claim they will be safer, without even hearing their opinion.
Ultimately their opinion doesn't matter. The government of Estonia will look out for it's citizens first and foremost, currently we can't accept more refugees and we can't deal with a ton of people just coming here so they will close the border.
Everybody's opinion matters, especially of EU citizens and even more of Estonian regarding this issue. Estonia can obviously deal with more migrants, it is just not convenient. Estonain goverment doesnt care about its citizens, but about getting reelected. They will do what is most in their interest.
Placing convienice of people from your country over others lives is obviously morally wrong. And unless you are a nationalist (right-wing) you can not believe that people from certain country have lives worth less than from another, even yours. So there is no difference between russian and estonian, and their interest should be placed at the same value. To disagree is by definition nationalism and if we are talking about ethnicity, racism.
OK if you are going down the road of ignorance toward both Estonian politics and the economic situation then we can drop that.
Are you really saying it's the norm for countries to help every person in the world equally and not prioritise it's citizens? Also by prioritising it's own citizens they also prioritise the 20 or so % Russian population living here. People's lives have equal worth but the responsibility to help someone falls on their nation first and foremost.
I am not saying it is the norm. I am saying it is right-wing, natonallistic and racist. Which is unfortuenately the norm. I am saying it is unethical and morally inexsusable, not that it is not normal.
It would be absolutely great if every single country in the world would care about every person equally. Both China and the US have enough resources and space to fit like every single refugee in the world so that would be an easy fix but that's not the situation.
I agree, it would be. But instead of passing regulations to make Europe (just as rich and more populous that US) take refugees from countries they are in war with. Instead we are focusing on closing borders of other countries, not only so they can't take refugees themselves, but to stop them from actually getting assylim in places they can, like EU. There is a difference in not fighting for right regulation to make a World more just, but to fight for new regulation that is making it less so, is definitely immoral.
The EU is not a federal government, it's a trade alliance. It has no power to control how many refugees a country accepts.
So they can't stop Estonia from accepting more refugees?
Yes they are, but Russia also uses migration as a pervert way of its hybrid warfare to pressure european countries and to create confusion and disarray .
True, but that's not a reason to categorically turn away all refugees any more than some cars being stolen is a reason to stop all cars.
I would argue on that. Maybe establish another way to get putin refugees into europe instead of getting your borders flooded. You also have to manage the income to make sure they get proper care in your country.
You shouldn't close your borders until you have an alternative. Human lives are a first priority. Your income will be fine, EU is the richest region in the World. Most migrants can get a job as well and they are negligable addition to population of Europe that has more then a billion citizens. These are weak excuses for what is clearly classic anti-migrant racism.
Actually, it's been shown that, contrary to xenophobic stereotypes (not calling you xenophobic, just pointing out that the stereotypes are), immigrants are overwhelmingly a net economic (and arguably cultural, but that's admittedly quite subjective) positive to their destination country, refugees even moreso than others.
of course they are. The problem I see is that every country has to take care that regugees are properly welcomed and taken care of. They have to get immediatly proper introduction into the country, the language, the common systems of the country, are able to work and contribute (with regards of their strengths and education) and so on, so that they get really fast properly inlcuded and not live for years in some shady, seperated "container homes".
And to assure this you have to regulate the income, because every country has limited ressources. We just need a proper european solution that every country is forced (looking at you hungary...) to take refugees and care for them properly based on some variables like the wealth of the country and so on.
Yeah, you're right that there's a potentially steep initial cost. That's outweighed by future benefits, though, and I'm pretty sure that both the EU and several NGOs have funds and projects specifically dedicated to partly pay for and ease that transition.
It's worth a try, at least, when the alternative is turning away refugees.
It is a nonsense problem created to excuse clearly right-wing anti-migrant politics as left-wing, by saying that you care about people so much, that you can't have them sleep on the street, so better to let them die in a war. Because at that point, that problem is somewhere else, in another country. Better then to see suffering on your own streets.
You are clearly unfamiliar with Estonian winters. The days are below freezing, often in double digits. Anyone not sheltered will freeze to death. And where, pray tell, would we shelter them? Refugee shelters? Full of Ukrainians. Hotels are full of Ukrainians. There's a Ukrainian family living across the street from me, because a call went out for private residences to house Ukrainian refugees and my neighbor took his family and moved in with his parents. There's nowhere left.
But please, continue to tell me how we're not doing enough by giving all the help we had to give to the first victims of this war.
And in Russia it is nice tropical weather /s Are we talking about closing borders just for the winter, of for the summer as well? Are we talking about closing boreders for Russians that cant pay ticket to continue to other coutnries or to all russians? These are nonsense arguments where you pretend to make descision in their best intrerest. Are they too stupid to not be able to make a decision themselves to leave the country if they are under threat of certain death in a war. They would rather live in a tent then in a battlefield under same freezing conditions. How can someone in all honestly believe this clear lie?
And how can someone so unfamiliar with the situation preach, with such conviction, to the uneducated and clearly right-wing xenophobic untermenschen who actually have to deal with it?
You speak as though we're closing the borders with a giant "fuck you" to the people on the other side. We can't help them. Can't. Not won't, but can't. We don't have the resources to help them. You can talk about the EU being rich as fuck all day, but the reality on the ground is that we have nothing left to give to help these people, because all that wealth isn't here. We're stretched thin as it is.
You ever heard the saying "Don't light yourself on fire to keep someone else warm"? Because that's what you're proposing.
This article isn't about welfare to russian citizens, but about actually closing the borders so they are trapped. You are very determined to make it seem like it's about best intentions and not being able to help, while the reality is that this is a decision to actively forbid any passage through a country. As for the real situation of wealth in Estonia, per capita Estonia is far richer then Russia and if citizens are not able to survive in Estonia, they will not be able to survive in Russia. Russia is also colder and at actual war. So I have no idea how you can pretend that you are doing them a service by actauly actively stopping them from making their own choice to go where they can for search of better life.
You'll note that at no point did I claim that turning them away is in their best interests. I'd appreciate it if you stopped telling me what I said.
And yes, forbidding them passage through the country is what "closing the borders" means. Very astute of you. Not like they'd get to go anywhere anyway, seeing how they have neither a Schengen VISA nor a EU passport. So all those masses would be ours to deal with. Again, we don't have the resources to do that. It's a point you seem intent on ignoring.
It is a weak argument to claim that people must stay in a region where they will be killed, until you are certain that you can allow 100% comfort in nice houses for them to live with. If they want to come to that country and sleep in a tent, rather then die in a war, why not let them in? I understand that right-wing people make racist arguments and are clear on that they don't like migrants and hate other popluations, but when I hear this from people who consider themselves left-wing, they always make up some nonsense excuses how they are actually letting people die for their own sake.
Pretty sure that the ukrainians are the real refugees here, and not ruzzians.
Oh look, another liberal racist. Of course if ukrainins can be regugees doesnt mean russians arent. We are talking about civilan lives here, just because they are from Russia, doesn't mean they are not "real refugees" from war. Also combining word of nationality (russian) and ideology (nazzi) like that is clearly racist and you must admit is far-right view. Which is ironic that far-right opinions are so often disguessed as fight against nazzism. Even more ironic that Russian government used this same excuse for a war.
Yes, it is better to let them die in a war then let Russia create pressure and confusion. /s What are your motivations for policies? Human lives or just winning a war against people you don't like at any cost?
They can have no part in war by overthrowing government that not considering their peoples’ will. Can’t believe how gutless Russians when it comes to regime
Lmao, what an edgy take. Have you ever been to a gulag? Cause that’s where you end up when you try to fight Putin.
Are you fucking drunk? You really think nobody's trying to overthrow the Putin regime or otherwise fight back?
You're acting like toppling a deeply entrenched tyrannical regime is something a couple of dudes could easily do in an afternoon, not something virtually impossible that thousands of Russians have died trying to accomplish 🤦
How many regimes against your own countries government have you overthrown? Calling someone gutless for refusing to go to civil war is cruel at least and almost always hipocritical as well. Easy to type on Internet about why someone doesn't fight a war for you. Are you doing your part in overthrowing their government? Are you physically fighting in this war? Did you overthrow your government when your government went to a war without your support? Let me guess, you are from a country that is in NATO that started more wars that Russia did in a last decade all around the World, that you as well clearly know is for oil and you do not support and yet sometimes not only did you not overthrow your government, but instead voted for people who are pro-NATO and pro war, just because they pretended to be less racist then other politicians.
are they being badly treated? forcefully enlisted? killed? their life is the same as before the full-scale invasion, their life is the same as before 2014. so why the heck do they need protection?
In thousands of cases, yes.
Bullshit. The overbroad sanctions and boycotts as well as acts of the tyrannical Putin government have changed the lives of almost all Russians and foreign residents dramatically for the worse.
Again, talking out of your ass.
For the same reason as all other refugees: because they're fleeing violence, oppression and societal collapse.
We had this with Yanukovich. Got rid of him. Maybe instead of fleeing, they should take over their country? The question is rhetorical.
Comparing Yanukovic to Putin is like comparing apples and orchards. Putin is so much more powerful and entrenched that the very notion is ridiculous.
Here's a rhetorical question for you: are you arguing in bad faith or are you just an absolute moron?
I'm just a Ukrainian living in Kyiv. If I were living in Eastern Ukraine, I would have wished them all dead.
So kill everyone that is fleeing a war? Should Ukrainans fleeing a war be killed as well for not fighting for their country? Or are you just openly racist against Russians, saying all of them are bad and need to be killed.
I'm sorry for what you and your country are going through, but it doesn't mean you know anything about how powerful and entrenched the Russian government is. Clearly.
The ones LEAVING Russia to AVOID the war? They've never done anything against you.
I thank God every day that this Ukrainian has you to educate him on the nuances of Ukrainian/Russian politics.
He is educating him on exclusively Russian politics.
Being Ukrainian doesn't make it any less wrong to assume that it's easy to overthrow Putin and demand that refugees should stay in countries that are likely to kill them and/or force them to kill others.
Maybe, but your faith that Putin's power is absolute, that he is immune to being overthrown is just as flawed.
Why is his table so long? Why has he done several brutal purges of his personal guard? Why has he installed members of his personal guard to high ranking military posts?
These are the actions of a man who looks into a crystal ball and says "wow, getting crushed by a popular uprising is on the menu for me"
Recal how few rednecks it takes to storm a capital building. Recall the relative density of rednecks in Russia.
I'm glad that you have complete faith that an uprising couldn't topple Putin's regime. You should tell Putin, I think he would find incredible comfort in your expert analysis.
And you need to understand the how flat your words must fall on the ears of those who literally have participated in such an uprising as you brush off as impossible.
I agree with you that harming refugees is bad. That discussion sits in the domain of humanitarian ethics, something that I think we all have the prerequisite knowledge for, assuming we have the capacity for human empathy.
On the topic of uprising against a Russian leader, I think you need to accept that your armchair assessment has been informed by a significant amount of propeganda from either side, and that you might not be as much an authority as you might imagine yourself
He never said that it is impossible to overthrow him, he said that it is very difficult. Which is objectively true. Putin is a leader of a superpower, he has nukes for god's sake. This other user is claiming that because they overthrow their president that they could also overthrow a dictator that has been in power for dacades consolidating his power and controls a huge military aresenal at his disposal.
Furthermore. this user from Ukraine, that of course we all simpatize on terms of being at war, has clearly belived in anti-russian racist propaganda so much that he belives that people in Russia are not forced to go to war, but are volenrarly getting shot at in war just because they are so evil and want to kill as many Ukranians as possible. They clearly stated that they live lives just as comfortable as before 2014, and doesn't understand that they are under santctions and has no understanding of what santions actually do to a population.
Do you think the USA being a nuclear power informed Jan 6? Do you think nuclear weapons informed Wagner's march to Moscow?
Why would a dictator comfortable with their claim feel the need to keep other people off the ballot? Why were civilians forced to create highway obstructions for Wagner?
The stranglehold on power isn't as complete as Putin wants people to believe, and he knows it.
The barrier is will, not capacity.
Are you really comparing Jan 6 to fight against Putin? Do you know that leader of main opposition in Russia is in jail for simply being in opposition? Trump is still not in jail after a coup. Of course he can be removed from power, but don't be ridicoulous with claims that people are just lazy or not brave enough. If you even start to organize to critique the goverment in Russia, you go to jail. It is a lot harder to actually form a movement when they arrest you so fast, as soon as you say that you are displeased, let along actually try to form a group for protest, let along an armed revolution. Of course it is possible, but lets not be ignorant and compare it to other regimes.
Did Yanukovich kill anyone who critissized his government? How violent and determined to stay in power was Yanyukovich compared to Putin? Also this is clearly a general anti-migrant comment. "Fix the problem in your country instead of fleeing" is a dangerous and hipocritical rethoric. Why don't you fix it for them if you are more brave then them? Are you fighting in Ukranian war, risking your life being shot at? Or are you at home critisizing someone for not risking their lives enough? There is no reason to force them to fight in a war by not allowing them to enter another country.
Do you seriously believe racist propaganda so much to think that Russians are an evil population that willingly goes to war and not because the ruling class is making them fight? How many people do you know that willingly went to fight in a war and get shot at? Even those that believe that some wars are justified almost never actually do this. And have you even heard of sanctions? Let alone experience life in sanctions? This is most ignorant comment here.