All of these people voting for him are gonna quickly disavow him when the wheels of time turn and history looks down upon them with universal disgust
Hard was find people in Germany who openly admited to supporting a certain party once that party was destroyed. Thank God for social media, people won't be able to use cheep excuses for being held to account
These people voting for him are the same ones that voted for him in 2016 and complained about a stolen election in 2020. At this point they've tripled down.
It's even more
According to my favourite nut wing podcast, they now have checks notes the blacks and the gays on their side as well
As my Dutch grandfather often angrily said, the Dutch resistance gained most of its members in 1945.
But I think it was a useful lie at that point. Better to get on with things, rather than settle scores.
Better to get on with things, rather than settle scores.
How many problems do we face today because of this misguided notion?
Confederates weren't punished after the US Civil War, and what did they do after that? The KKK, Jim Crow, "lost cause" myth, redlining, sundown towns, etc, happened because we didn't beat every inch of racism out of the South. Nixon literally sabotaged an end to hostilities in Vietnam and prolonged the war just to get elected. What's the word for someone who actively works against their government? Oliver North sold guns to Iran in order to fund right-wing revolutionaries in Nicaragua at Reagan's direction. GW Bush lied about WMDs in Iraq to justify an invasion, and blew the cover off a CIA operative when she refused to endorse false claims of Uranium enrichment.
And that's just the ones off the top of my head.
Confederates weren’t punished after the US Civil War, and what did they do after that?
The ideals and policies the Confederates had during and after the war were abhorrent. That is unquestionable.
However, I struggle to envision what "punishment" for the former Confederate state would have been.
"The population of the Union was 18.5 million. In the Confederacy, the population was listed as 5.5 million free and 3.5 million enslaved. In the Border States there were 2.5 million free inhabitants and 500,000 enslaved people." source
So 25% of the newly reunited population of the USA was part of the Confederacy. How do you punish 25% of your population? Some kind of tax or restriction of freedom on them? Discrimination against blacks was the primary driver for the war. How could the Union then go on to build a new system that would do that to 25% of its citizens?
We also have history to draw from with regard to punishing an entire aggressor population. Post WWI Germany got smacked down hard with huge debts and restrictions on production as punishment for starting WWI. Most historical analysis I've seen says that this punishment was a large contributor to the rise of NAZI Germany just 21 years later.
If the post-civil war US government did the same to the former Confederacy, would the USA have a history including Civil War II?
Punish here isn't meant as a short-term restriction or taking of freedoms. Punish is instead meant for the long term. While I cannot say as to what the correct option would have been, I will say we far too quickly, in reference to the passage of years from the Civil War to today, went from "FREE THEM!" to "Welp, aight, did that. Guess everything is good now."
It wasn't good now.
So what we failed to truly do was follow up and quash the little pockets that exist today much larger and with a damned ancient fruit as their lead.
don't they teach reconstruction any more?
Its been a long time since I've been in a classroom, so I can't say.
With your question do you believe Reconstruction was contained punishment that was insufficient to meet @billiam0202@lemmy.world 's desired level?
I don't know.
I don't believe in punishment, myself. but the South was obviously punished.
Up until it was politically expedient to end the punishment and hey look the worst of Jim Crow...
the problem wasn't that there was not enough government though, it was that there was too much government. without States, Jim Crow could not have n been made law. abolish the state.
Yes, because without the states to make laws that racists followed, there would have been no Jim Crow reaction to newly freed slaves. And I bet we'd also still have newly freed slaves too.
yes
My dude, there's a vast difference between "justice" and "vengeance."
My dude, there’s a vast difference between “justice” and “vengeance.”
I agree completely.
For the post @billiam0202@lemmy.world 's post above, what is your suggestion about how to pushing the newly defeated Confederacy in 1865?
While this isn't something I'd necessarily advocate for, the anti-treason part of the constitution could have easily seen the high command of the confederacy hanged for it. Them being only barred from office seems like a slap on the wrist in comparison, and failed to "make an example" of the traitors. If they had given them life in prison with hard labor, plus directly instilled new leadership in the south specifically working to tamp down on any other segregationist/appologist movements, we very well may not be facing the same issues today.
While this isn’t something I’d necessarily advocate for, the anti-treason part of the constitution could have easily seen the high command of the confederacy hanged for it.
This could have potentially worked. History afterward showed that the hanging worked at Nuremberg, and modern day Germany show no repercussions from that action.
Out of curiosity, what city was he in for that? My great grandparents on my Oma's side were part of the resistance in Haarlem during the war.
Yes, when he loses in November there's going to be an epic meltdown in the GOP. Three election cycles and this idiot is the best they have?
The list of things I heard less democratic than the idea of holding people to account for who they vote for is pretty short.
"you are a shitty person who knowingly did shitty things and history will spit on you" is what I mean by being held to account. Nobody will get a free pass from being judged. But I mean like the opinion sense of judgment. Not like getting arrested or anything.
Oh, that's fair. You came off kinda militant in your first comment. Cheers.
We’re not talking about punishing people for voting for Bob Dole here.
All of these people voting for him are gonna quickly disavow him when the wheels of time turn and history looks down upon them with universal disgust
Hard was find people in Germany who openly admited to supporting a certain party once that party was destroyed. Thank God for social media, people won't be able to use cheep excuses for being held to account
These people voting for him are the same ones that voted for him in 2016 and complained about a stolen election in 2020. At this point they've tripled down.
It's even more
According to my favourite nut wing podcast, they now have checks notes the blacks and the gays on their side as well
As my Dutch grandfather often angrily said, the Dutch resistance gained most of its members in 1945.
But I think it was a useful lie at that point. Better to get on with things, rather than settle scores.
How many problems do we face today because of this misguided notion?
Confederates weren't punished after the US Civil War, and what did they do after that? The KKK, Jim Crow, "lost cause" myth, redlining, sundown towns, etc, happened because we didn't beat every inch of racism out of the South. Nixon literally sabotaged an end to hostilities in Vietnam and prolonged the war just to get elected. What's the word for someone who actively works against their government? Oliver North sold guns to Iran in order to fund right-wing revolutionaries in Nicaragua at Reagan's direction. GW Bush lied about WMDs in Iraq to justify an invasion, and blew the cover off a CIA operative when she refused to endorse false claims of Uranium enrichment.
And that's just the ones off the top of my head.
The ideals and policies the Confederates had during and after the war were abhorrent. That is unquestionable.
However, I struggle to envision what "punishment" for the former Confederate state would have been.
"The population of the Union was 18.5 million. In the Confederacy, the population was listed as 5.5 million free and 3.5 million enslaved. In the Border States there were 2.5 million free inhabitants and 500,000 enslaved people." source
So 25% of the newly reunited population of the USA was part of the Confederacy. How do you punish 25% of your population? Some kind of tax or restriction of freedom on them? Discrimination against blacks was the primary driver for the war. How could the Union then go on to build a new system that would do that to 25% of its citizens?
We also have history to draw from with regard to punishing an entire aggressor population. Post WWI Germany got smacked down hard with huge debts and restrictions on production as punishment for starting WWI. Most historical analysis I've seen says that this punishment was a large contributor to the rise of NAZI Germany just 21 years later.
If the post-civil war US government did the same to the former Confederacy, would the USA have a history including Civil War II?
Punish here isn't meant as a short-term restriction or taking of freedoms. Punish is instead meant for the long term. While I cannot say as to what the correct option would have been, I will say we far too quickly, in reference to the passage of years from the Civil War to today, went from "FREE THEM!" to "Welp, aight, did that. Guess everything is good now."
It wasn't good now.
So what we failed to truly do was follow up and quash the little pockets that exist today much larger and with a damned ancient fruit as their lead.
don't they teach reconstruction any more?
Its been a long time since I've been in a classroom, so I can't say.
With your question do you believe Reconstruction was contained punishment that was insufficient to meet @billiam0202@lemmy.world 's desired level?
I don't know.
I don't believe in punishment, myself. but the South was obviously punished.
Up until it was politically expedient to end the punishment and hey look the worst of Jim Crow...
the problem wasn't that there was not enough government though, it was that there was too much government. without States, Jim Crow could not have n been made law. abolish the state.
Yes, because without the states to make laws that racists followed, there would have been no Jim Crow reaction to newly freed slaves. And I bet we'd also still have newly freed slaves too.
yes
My dude, there's a vast difference between "justice" and "vengeance."
I agree completely.
For the post @billiam0202@lemmy.world 's post above, what is your suggestion about how to pushing the newly defeated Confederacy in 1865?
While this isn't something I'd necessarily advocate for, the anti-treason part of the constitution could have easily seen the high command of the confederacy hanged for it. Them being only barred from office seems like a slap on the wrist in comparison, and failed to "make an example" of the traitors. If they had given them life in prison with hard labor, plus directly instilled new leadership in the south specifically working to tamp down on any other segregationist/appologist movements, we very well may not be facing the same issues today.
This could have potentially worked. History afterward showed that the hanging worked at Nuremberg, and modern day Germany show no repercussions from that action.
Out of curiosity, what city was he in for that? My great grandparents on my Oma's side were part of the resistance in Haarlem during the war.
Yes, when he loses in November there's going to be an epic meltdown in the GOP. Three election cycles and this idiot is the best they have?
The list of things I heard less democratic than the idea of holding people to account for who they vote for is pretty short.
"you are a shitty person who knowingly did shitty things and history will spit on you" is what I mean by being held to account. Nobody will get a free pass from being judged. But I mean like the opinion sense of judgment. Not like getting arrested or anything.
Oh, that's fair. You came off kinda militant in your first comment. Cheers.
We’re not talking about punishing people for voting for Bob Dole here.