Most homeless are in the big cities, most churches are out in the boonies. The homeless are very unlikely to accept being bussed to a flyover state to sleep in a church in bumfuck nowhere. For a myriad of reasons.
Keep in mind also that a lot of them have a very hard time accepting any help due to past trauma as well.
It's not a situation with a quick fix. Really the first step isn't even ensuring housing for the homeless, it's making sure we don't get more homeless. We likely can't save a subset of today's homeless because they don't want/or won't accept any help that comes with any strings (like no drugs or just they can't trash the place). But we can ensure no-one else ends up on the streets by beefing up mental healthcare and social services.
Churches "sponsor" people in other countries all the time. They could do the same for two people in the nearest city, they don't have to force people to relocate.
There is actually an easy fix - build houses and give them to people. I remember when "Habitat for Humanity" was so much more prominent in churches.
I can't tell if you are purposefully taking the post literally just to be able to shoot it down... But I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt
Just think of how many homeless people would actually refuse to live in any of these Mega mansions
Or better yet, imagine what these "churches" could do with the literal millions they spend in mansions and private jets to help the homeless... You know, if they actually care about that and were not just tax avoidance operations
Since I'm not American I keep forgetting about your for profit churches. The concept is just too foreign to me. When I think church I think of 300 year old cold stone building in the countryside.
Still there are homeless that would refuse, some from not believing or trusting you, some from not wanting to relocate even if it means that level of comfort, some from being deep into addiction thinking that they'll be forced to get clean. And some will take you up on it and just absolutely trash the place trying to steal anything not bolted down.
That said the vast majority would for sure jump on it and thrive. So if it was at all possible to make happen it would be a good idea.
America definitely has its old, historic churches, but they're far from common.
We have so many other kinds of churches, huge mega churches that essentially have a whole campus. Tiny churches in shopping centers. Growing up I went to a little church that was in the middle of an otherwise normal neighborhood.
Megachurches are the minority of churches though
I can’t tell if you are purposefully taking the post literally just to be able to shoot it down.
Most people here are taking the post literally. A smaller, not insignificant but smaller, number are reading satire/irony (regarding tax exemption) into it but that does not mean there is only one valid interpretation.
Pro tip, if you need to reject the majority reading of a rhetorical post in order to defend it, that’s an indication you might be the one who is approaching in bad faith. Either that or the post is indefensible and needs rewritten.
I happen to agree with your position too, but just be careful about calling that commenter out for something as benign as taking a straightforward text literally.
They have a hard time "accepting help" because as often as not; it isn't really help.
Its libs jacking themselves off with the monkey paw; doing awful shit using nice words so they can feel good while being assholes.
Sure you get a room and three meals a day! No pets, must detox first, curfew but also you must have a job, and also dont mind the bars haha yes we do have to lock you in.
You must be out of your mind to prefer sleeping in drug riddled unsafe camps in a leaky tent to what you just described. You tried to make it look bad, but even with your hyperbole it really isn't.
You've obviously never been homeless or had an animal you gave a shit about.
I love my dog. I only adopted her when I had the living space and security to take care of her. Strange how that works huh?
I wonder how much you actually care about an animal if you think it's something to be used as leverage for not having to better your life.
Like half of Americans are one paycheck away from being homeless. So what point exactly are you making? That you're morally superior for being better off? Or that we should wait until we have at least two paychecks saved? You have all the answers?
My answer seems to be living in a developed country in Europe. I can tell you, I felt very superior about the place I live walking the streets of San Francisco last year and being harassed by homeless people every street corner asking me for money or drugs.
Also yes, have at least two paychecks saved if that's a possibility for you. It's hilarious how you try to make your own advice seem like some alien concept that's unachievable.
I didn't feel morally superior at all, but the way you people are unable to come up with any good excuse why homeless people don't want to use the help that's available to them and instead turn into raging incoherent idiots is quickly changing that.
Had the dog when you became homeless.
Found a stray who helped you, with emotional support and doggishness(finding food, staying safe), as has been a thing since before humans ever slept inside anything other than a fucking cave, to survive.
Seems like you just want an excuse to hunt them for sport, because realizing they're so fucking similar to you and youre like two pieces of paperwork (not even filed by you, doesn't even need to be correct) away from being in that position is Fucking Terrifying, but you also don't want to have a society where we don't let this fucking happen to people, because you're afraid you won't get as many of your favorite treats.
Don't be that guy.
Lmao all these assumptions and strawmen. It's really not worth my time to respond to your incoherent ramble because I actually got my shit together. Good luck, don't let your copium run out.
So you don't deny any of it? Just deflect abd reassure yourself that 'I have my shit together, so it can't happen to me'
Cope
Why do they always say exactly that? As if I'm the one with the fucked coping mechanisms here, instead of responding to anything ive said, like its some sort of gotcha?
Are you mad?
You're not even responding to shit I said; youre just like three comments into trying to find an excuse why I'm someone you shouldn't listen to, because compassion is too scary for you, but you would feel like such a huge ass arguing against the things I've said, and you know it.
I mean, even before you get as far as the opinion of the homeless, most churches aren't going to want to host two high-needs, possibly substance-addicted people from the big city in their atrium ("think of the children!"), which is the point of this.
It's a situation that absolutely has a quick fix, just not a super cheap quick fix. It's far easier to not formally address it, and leave the cost on them and whoever happens to be around them. There's more than enough resources out to fix it if there was the political will.
Also there is a cheap quick fix, because there is adequate empty housing. Landlords just refuse to rent it. The people just need to confiscate unused housing after x (x being an appropriate number for the area) days not being a primary residence.
Not the government. The people. And if the resident leaves/dies, that housing goes to someone new. The landlord never gets it back. That's important; they need to be afraid, but have an easy out (just put somebody in there, lower rent, etc)
I mean, taxing away houses and then giving them back to the homeless still counts as an expenditure. You're probably going to want to give them each a nurse and a meal plan as well, if you want them to stick around, because as mentioned these people often have persistent issues.
Not the government. The people.
The people have never done shit. Not once in history.
Taxing is the government. They work for the owners, not the people dying on the street. Governments are all, at this moment in the supreme court, advocating for the right to criminalize sleeping outside even when there's literally no other legal option.
The people have never done shit. Not once in history.
Oh. I guess every single history source I've ever read lied then. Thanks for informing me.
What have you been reading? Pretty much the only place where the people magically, spontaneously organise is in political speeches. The Patriots wouldn't have existed without guys like Jefferson, the French revolution was run by rogue military factions and exclusive political clubs, and the Leninists have it right in their name.
Oh. Shit magical and spontaneous? So there's nothing other than a master with a whip and a fucking wizard?
Its not what i favor, or what im proposing, but spontaneous organization does happen. Youve never been in a disaster, or started digging a hole at the beach, have you?
So there’s nothing other than a master with a whip and a fucking wizard?
Kind of, yeah. The way I see it it's a human limitation; we need a certain level of indirection to pull off anything bigger than a band of hunter-gatherers. Some systems are more whippy than others, though.
Youve never been in a disaster, or started digging a hole at the beach, have you?
Actually, yes I have, but never have I seen more than a handful of people get involved at once, and I never heard from that dude who started directing traffic again. I've also seen the bystander effect. Never in history. Maybe on the beach, but not in history.
You've never tried to organise any kind of activism, have you?
So, the beach thing. Why does it happen, and why does it 'not happen anywhere else'?
Have you read 'a paradise built in hell'?
Did you read my point about believing in the existence of, but not favoring spontaneous organization. A deliberate but headless structure is possible! They're actually really cool! Good thing too, because strict hierarchies are wildly inefficient and trend towards flattening the territory to match the map, which tends to lead to fascism.
And if I believed it was only a fuhrer or a grand wizard, I'd fucking kill myself and take as many as I could with me. Thankfully I've seen (and executed) proof to the contrary.
As far as I can tell, being in a novel enough situation emergency puts people in a different headspace. After a while, normality creeps back in, and if the emergency continues it looks less like a community pulling together and more like Haiti or parts of Myanmar. Mostly, though, it's an empirical observation. Besides what we've covered, it's hard as shit to get people to show up or care about activism, and if a meeting gets big enough it stops working, so you have to appoint someone to head whatever thing. This proves true over and over again.
I don't think that automatically means Hitler, though. Representative democracy seems to work if set up just right. Hopefully it's here to stay.
Theres this tendency to completely ignore the effects of peer pressure and habituation and culture and very scary men with guns pointing them at you in these arguments, and its deeply bullshit.
We tend to treat a hyper-competitive hyper-alienating authoritarian context as some sort of fundamental trait of humanity, rather than some shit we work very very hard to maintain.
And its nonsense? And I can prove it. I prefer deliberate rhizomatoc organization; its more efficient long term, but I can prove spontaneous organizing happens anywhere it isnt actively shut down, and I'll show you, in a totally non-ideological context: go to any beach, and dig a hole. Just pick a spot and start digging. Watch what happens. Nothings wrong, nobody's in trouble, its not even really for anything, and you'll have more help than you can use.
I could theorize why (being on a team feels good. Doing things is a primal joy. People generally want things to get done, etc) but the fact is; it happens, and tryimg to find reasons why it can't be the basis of a social order, or at least disaster response; seems very unnecessarily pessimistic.
anything big enough just stops working and you need a charismatic authority figure to be in charge
That's a failure if your organizing systems. Read more (managerial and information) theory? Seriously though; hierarchal systems do not scale. Spontaneous horizontal systems don't either, but you do realize there are deliberate horizontal systems, right? That you can apply going in or retrofit to an existing organization?
representative democracy seems to work if its set up right
Real representative democracy has never been tried? No true Scotsman? Because I'm not seeing one, and if you are, you need (new) glasses.
hopefully its here to stay
Oh honey. I... Maybe some acid would help this go down easier. I'm here for a hug if you need it.
The second shittiest roommate I ever had was a loud evangelical.
I was at the time actively the closest thing she would ever meet to a particular famous dude who died on the thing she worshipped, who she claimed to care about.
When she started fucking with my shit while I was out, I just made a bunch of copies of the house key and handed them out, so I'd have people to watch my door for me. Started cooking big dinners. She couldn't actually say anything.
The trick is; don't Fucking ask. Point out that sleeping in the park sucks and will get you killed by police, but meetings in the park are genuinely pleasant (unless climate change is real). They might shoot you, but they won't be able to argue.
Apologies I didn't understand what this means, did you hand out keys so your friends would randomly be over and she would be afraid of getting caught?
Friends? A couple, I hope I can call friends, but the rest just went to anyone unhoused who wanted a warm place to sleep/hang and a hot meal.
Most homeless are in the big cities, most churches are out in the boonies. The homeless are very unlikely to accept being bussed to a flyover state to sleep in a church in bumfuck nowhere. For a myriad of reasons.
Keep in mind also that a lot of them have a very hard time accepting any help due to past trauma as well.
It's not a situation with a quick fix. Really the first step isn't even ensuring housing for the homeless, it's making sure we don't get more homeless. We likely can't save a subset of today's homeless because they don't want/or won't accept any help that comes with any strings (like no drugs or just they can't trash the place). But we can ensure no-one else ends up on the streets by beefing up mental healthcare and social services.
Churches "sponsor" people in other countries all the time. They could do the same for two people in the nearest city, they don't have to force people to relocate.
There is actually an easy fix - build houses and give them to people. I remember when "Habitat for Humanity" was so much more prominent in churches.
I can't tell if you are purposefully taking the post literally just to be able to shoot it down... But I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt
Just think of how many homeless people would actually refuse to live in any of these Mega mansions
Or better yet, imagine what these "churches" could do with the literal millions they spend in mansions and private jets to help the homeless... You know, if they actually care about that and were not just tax avoidance operations
Since I'm not American I keep forgetting about your for profit churches. The concept is just too foreign to me. When I think church I think of 300 year old cold stone building in the countryside.
Still there are homeless that would refuse, some from not believing or trusting you, some from not wanting to relocate even if it means that level of comfort, some from being deep into addiction thinking that they'll be forced to get clean. And some will take you up on it and just absolutely trash the place trying to steal anything not bolted down.
That said the vast majority would for sure jump on it and thrive. So if it was at all possible to make happen it would be a good idea.
America definitely has its old, historic churches, but they're far from common.
We have so many other kinds of churches, huge mega churches that essentially have a whole campus. Tiny churches in shopping centers. Growing up I went to a little church that was in the middle of an otherwise normal neighborhood.
Megachurches are the minority of churches though
Most people here are taking the post literally. A smaller, not insignificant but smaller, number are reading satire/irony (regarding tax exemption) into it but that does not mean there is only one valid interpretation.
Pro tip, if you need to reject the majority reading of a rhetorical post in order to defend it, that’s an indication you might be the one who is approaching in bad faith. Either that or the post is indefensible and needs rewritten.
I happen to agree with your position too, but just be careful about calling that commenter out for something as benign as taking a straightforward text literally.
They have a hard time "accepting help" because as often as not; it isn't really help.
Its libs jacking themselves off with the monkey paw; doing awful shit using nice words so they can feel good while being assholes.
Sure you get a room and three meals a day! No pets, must detox first, curfew but also you must have a job, and also dont mind the bars haha yes we do have to lock you in.
You must be out of your mind to prefer sleeping in drug riddled unsafe camps in a leaky tent to what you just described. You tried to make it look bad, but even with your hyperbole it really isn't.
You've obviously never been homeless or had an animal you gave a shit about.
I love my dog. I only adopted her when I had the living space and security to take care of her. Strange how that works huh?
I wonder how much you actually care about an animal if you think it's something to be used as leverage for not having to better your life.
Like half of Americans are one paycheck away from being homeless. So what point exactly are you making? That you're morally superior for being better off? Or that we should wait until we have at least two paychecks saved? You have all the answers?
My answer seems to be living in a developed country in Europe. I can tell you, I felt very superior about the place I live walking the streets of San Francisco last year and being harassed by homeless people every street corner asking me for money or drugs.
Also yes, have at least two paychecks saved if that's a possibility for you. It's hilarious how you try to make your own advice seem like some alien concept that's unachievable.
I didn't feel morally superior at all, but the way you people are unable to come up with any good excuse why homeless people don't want to use the help that's available to them and instead turn into raging incoherent idiots is quickly changing that.
Had the dog when you became homeless.
Found a stray who helped you, with emotional support and doggishness(finding food, staying safe), as has been a thing since before humans ever slept inside anything other than a fucking cave, to survive.
Seems like you just want an excuse to hunt them for sport, because realizing they're so fucking similar to you and youre like two pieces of paperwork (not even filed by you, doesn't even need to be correct) away from being in that position is Fucking Terrifying, but you also don't want to have a society where we don't let this fucking happen to people, because you're afraid you won't get as many of your favorite treats.
Don't be that guy.
Lmao all these assumptions and strawmen. It's really not worth my time to respond to your incoherent ramble because I actually got my shit together. Good luck, don't let your copium run out.
So you don't deny any of it? Just deflect abd reassure yourself that 'I have my shit together, so it can't happen to me'
Cope
Why do they always say exactly that? As if I'm the one with the fucked coping mechanisms here, instead of responding to anything ive said, like its some sort of gotcha?
Are you mad?
You're not even responding to shit I said; youre just like three comments into trying to find an excuse why I'm someone you shouldn't listen to, because compassion is too scary for you, but you would feel like such a huge ass arguing against the things I've said, and you know it.
But why are you mad?
I mean, even before you get as far as the opinion of the homeless, most churches aren't going to want to host two high-needs, possibly substance-addicted people from the big city in their atrium ("think of the children!"), which is the point of this.
It's a situation that absolutely has a quick fix, just not a super cheap quick fix. It's far easier to not formally address it, and leave the cost on them and whoever happens to be around them. There's more than enough resources out to fix it if there was the political will.
Also there is a cheap quick fix, because there is adequate empty housing. Landlords just refuse to rent it. The people just need to confiscate unused housing after x (x being an appropriate number for the area) days not being a primary residence.
Not the government. The people. And if the resident leaves/dies, that housing goes to someone new. The landlord never gets it back. That's important; they need to be afraid, but have an easy out (just put somebody in there, lower rent, etc)
I mean, taxing away houses and then giving them back to the homeless still counts as an expenditure. You're probably going to want to give them each a nurse and a meal plan as well, if you want them to stick around, because as mentioned these people often have persistent issues.
The people have never done shit. Not once in history.
Taxing is the government. They work for the owners, not the people dying on the street. Governments are all, at this moment in the supreme court, advocating for the right to criminalize sleeping outside even when there's literally no other legal option.
Oh. I guess every single history source I've ever read lied then. Thanks for informing me.
What have you been reading? Pretty much the only place where the people magically, spontaneously organise is in political speeches. The Patriots wouldn't have existed without guys like Jefferson, the French revolution was run by rogue military factions and exclusive political clubs, and the Leninists have it right in their name.
Oh. Shit magical and spontaneous? So there's nothing other than a master with a whip and a fucking wizard?
Its not what i favor, or what im proposing, but spontaneous organization does happen. Youve never been in a disaster, or started digging a hole at the beach, have you?
Kind of, yeah. The way I see it it's a human limitation; we need a certain level of indirection to pull off anything bigger than a band of hunter-gatherers. Some systems are more whippy than others, though.
Actually, yes I have, but never have I seen more than a handful of people get involved at once, and I never heard from that dude who started directing traffic again. I've also seen the bystander effect. Never in history. Maybe on the beach, but not in history.
You've never tried to organise any kind of activism, have you?
So, the beach thing. Why does it happen, and why does it 'not happen anywhere else'?
Have you read 'a paradise built in hell'?
Did you read my point about believing in the existence of, but not favoring spontaneous organization. A deliberate but headless structure is possible! They're actually really cool! Good thing too, because strict hierarchies are wildly inefficient and trend towards flattening the territory to match the map, which tends to lead to fascism.
And if I believed it was only a fuhrer or a grand wizard, I'd fucking kill myself and take as many as I could with me. Thankfully I've seen (and executed) proof to the contrary.
As far as I can tell, being in a novel enough situation emergency puts people in a different headspace. After a while, normality creeps back in, and if the emergency continues it looks less like a community pulling together and more like Haiti or parts of Myanmar. Mostly, though, it's an empirical observation. Besides what we've covered, it's hard as shit to get people to show up or care about activism, and if a meeting gets big enough it stops working, so you have to appoint someone to head whatever thing. This proves true over and over again.
I don't think that automatically means Hitler, though. Representative democracy seems to work if set up just right. Hopefully it's here to stay.
Theres this tendency to completely ignore the effects of peer pressure and habituation and culture and very scary men with guns pointing them at you in these arguments, and its deeply bullshit.
We tend to treat a hyper-competitive hyper-alienating authoritarian context as some sort of fundamental trait of humanity, rather than some shit we work very very hard to maintain.
And its nonsense? And I can prove it. I prefer deliberate rhizomatoc organization; its more efficient long term, but I can prove spontaneous organizing happens anywhere it isnt actively shut down, and I'll show you, in a totally non-ideological context: go to any beach, and dig a hole. Just pick a spot and start digging. Watch what happens. Nothings wrong, nobody's in trouble, its not even really for anything, and you'll have more help than you can use.
I could theorize why (being on a team feels good. Doing things is a primal joy. People generally want things to get done, etc) but the fact is; it happens, and tryimg to find reasons why it can't be the basis of a social order, or at least disaster response; seems very unnecessarily pessimistic.
That's a failure if your organizing systems. Read more (managerial and information) theory? Seriously though; hierarchal systems do not scale. Spontaneous horizontal systems don't either, but you do realize there are deliberate horizontal systems, right? That you can apply going in or retrofit to an existing organization?
Real representative democracy has never been tried? No true Scotsman? Because I'm not seeing one, and if you are, you need (new) glasses.
Oh honey. I... Maybe some acid would help this go down easier. I'm here for a hug if you need it.
The second shittiest roommate I ever had was a loud evangelical.
I was at the time actively the closest thing she would ever meet to a particular famous dude who died on the thing she worshipped, who she claimed to care about.
When she started fucking with my shit while I was out, I just made a bunch of copies of the house key and handed them out, so I'd have people to watch my door for me. Started cooking big dinners. She couldn't actually say anything.
The trick is; don't Fucking ask. Point out that sleeping in the park sucks and will get you killed by police, but meetings in the park are genuinely pleasant (unless climate change is real). They might shoot you, but they won't be able to argue.
Apologies I didn't understand what this means, did you hand out keys so your friends would randomly be over and she would be afraid of getting caught?
Friends? A couple, I hope I can call friends, but the rest just went to anyone unhoused who wanted a warm place to sleep/hang and a hot meal.
On that I agree 100%