Obfuscation. They know lemmygrad is too obviously tankie for most people, but lemmy.ml is not so obvious. The .ml is a dogwhistle that a lot of users won't understand, so they can buy some measure of legitimacy that way. I guess they keep lemmygrad because they also want a place where they can go full mask-off.
If your theory is correct, then why would they also keep many of their users uninformed? Referring to Lemmy.ml, of course. You claim it's for legitimacy, but doesn't that cease to fulfill its purpose? Is the goal to make a generalist instance, but with slightly more MLs, but also divert the MLs to Lemmygrad?
I'm not sure your theory is correct, I think Lemmy.ml is just what it says it is: a generalist, FOSS and Privacy focused instance run by the devs, who are MLs.
If your theory is correct, then why would they also keep many of their users uninformed? Referring to Lemmy.ml, of course. You claim it’s for legitimacy, but doesn’t that cease to fulfill its purpose?
Because the users that don't know what the instance is for are the ones that help lend legitimacy to it, because then people like you can believe that it's just a general instance with no political undertones. You aren't running cover for them, you are their cover.
Just think for a second about what you're suggesting. They want to make an instance that is to lend legitimacy to a fringe political ideology, and they openly tell all of their users that that's exactly what they're doing? Then all anyone would need to do to destroy that legitimacy would be to publish whatever message the users receive explaining the true purpose of the instance. The cover only works if it's deniable, and your idea would make it completely undeniable.
Is the goal to make a generalist instance, but with slightly more MLs, but also divert the MLs to Lemmygrad?
That is one of the goals, yes.
Sorry, I really think this is ridiculous. Is Lemmy.world a cover for Liberalism, because it's run by liberals? Is db0 a cover for Anarchism and Libertarian Socialism, because db0 is a Libertarian Socialist? This is just red-scare style paranoia.
The very existance of Lemmygrad.ml should prove that there is an explicitly Marxist-Leninist space for MLs, and Lemmy.ml is a generalist instance for people who don't care enough about that but want a server dedicated to FOSS and Privacy.
Is Lemmy.world a cover for Liberalism, because it’s run by liberals? Is db0 a cover for Anarchism and Libertarian Socialism, because db0 is a Libertarian Socialist?
Liberals and libertarian socialists are usually pretty open about what they believe, so there's no cover needed. They're not covert ideologies like tankies have.
However neoliberalism is a fairly hated ideology. If the people who ran lemmy.world were literally the same people running a neoliberalism sub on that instance and they also ran thatcher.love or whatever, and they banned people for saying neoliberalism was trash, then yeah, it would be a reasonable inference that lemmy.world was some sort of entryist ploy.
It is the existence of lemmygrad combined with the behaviour of the people running lemmy.ml that makes the case to defederate. If that happens and you don't like it, you could always migrate your account, unless you like it there, in which case you're probably not the normie you first appeared to be.
Edit: changed "fringe" to "covert".
Completely tangential, but imma be real with you: libsocs are fringe too.
Indeed, socialism of any sort is pretty fringe in most of the West.
That's a fair point, although I would say socialism is becoming less fringe, and it seems like the various types of libsoc are the main forms of socialism because people have seen the failures of state based solutions, even amongst demsocs/socdems.
That said, I kind of agree and the word "fringe" didn't sit quite right. On reflection a better word would be "covert", since ideologies that explicitly want to dominate people tend to hide what they are, since they know it's not acceptable to state their aims up front. That's really the idea I was getting at.
Fair
Lemmy.world regularly bans Marxist-Leninists, it is a two-way street there.
Again, I truly don't see how Lemmygrad taking the marxist-leninists means Lemmy.ml is a cover for Marxism-Leninism, it's a non-political community focused on FOSS and Privacy.
Just for being marxist-leninists? Or because they were toxic assholes?
Anecdotally I have seen Marxist-Leninists calmly arguing in politics communities banned for being "tankies." I will admit, I do not have any examples on-hand.
So do they regularly do this, or is it a thing you've seen anecdotally?
And if the thing they were calmly arguing was genocide denial, then the ban was warranted. The tone is not the only thing that matters.
Imagine if someone defended nazis with "they were calmly denying the Holocaust". I've seen far too many tankies denying the Uyghur genocide every chance they get. Like you say, it doesn't matter the tone; genocide denial is itself a line you don't cross.
I can’t find a reputable international human rights organization that calls it a genocide. Human Rights violations, sure. Crimes against humanity, maybe, but not genocide.
The U.N. rights council on Thursday voted down a Western-led motion to hold a debate about alleged human rights abuses by China against Uyghurs and other Muslims in Xinjiang in a victory for Beijing as it seeks to avoid further scrutiny.
The defeat - 19 against, 17 for, 11 abstentions - is only the second time in the council's 16-year history that a motion has been rejected and is seen by observers as a setback to both accountability efforts, the West's moral authority on human rights and the credibility of the United Nations itself. Source
If it’s a genocide, why hasn’t it been taken to the International Court of Justice?
An alternative route is provided by the International Court of Justice, as highlightedby the Uyghur Tribunal, which stated: “It is unfortunate that no efforts have been made by those [countries who declared China to be perpetrating genocide in Xinjiang] or other countries to have the issue dealt with at the ICJ, as might happen if a country had the courage to take the matter there.” Source
A majority of the countries that voted with China on that attempt were/are extremely tied to China and heavily economically reliant on China, and upsetting China enough means a potential economic crisis.
(UNCTAD & World Bank)
(note that Venezuela actually imported more from China than the US in 2020 according to some sources)
It only makes sense for them to not vote against China, no matter their actual crimes, it would be biting the hand that feeds them. It's a similar reason as to why almost no country officially recognizes Taiwan as its own country separate from PRC, despite continuing relations with Taiwan and even importing a lot from them.
Of course, EU/NATO/NATO-ish countries don't exactly care as much because their thoughts on China have long been established, China economically relies on them to a large extent, and they don't have as much to lose if China hypothetically did get a bit angry at them. The richer ones also have very low risk of actual "consequences" when criticizing the US so they tend to do it quite a lot, but here they seem to be in agreement.
Exactly. When the accused has paid off half the jury, you shouldn't put much stock in the verdict.
The only thing I care about when determining whether something is a genocide is the facts of the case (which are overwhelmingly in favor of describing the Uyghur genocide as a genocide), not the outcome of a highly political vote by countries all with their own motives and interests.
It’s almost like it would be geopolitically in America and Europe’s interest to over exaggerate a humanitarian crisis in China. And for China to minimize the cultural impact it’s policies have on the Uyghurs.
I dont have data on it, sorry to say.
I do. I had a post removed from political memes because apparently people didn’t like the fact that a Nazi was made a chairman in NATO. Adolf Heusinger
We know that, it's the implication that that somehow justifies Russia invading Ukraine is what makes you a tankie.
That was never brought up in the post or the comments. The post was removed for “misinformation,” when it is completely factual. The commenters first countered that it wasn’t true. He wasn’t actually a Nazi. He wasn’t a chairman. When that failed, they focused on the pedantry of “a” chairman versus “the” chairman. And I guess it was reported and removed.
Just pointing out that the same exclusionary tribalism happens on .world as it happens on .ml and Lemmygrad.
And your vague-posting about it gives a fair and balanced account, I'm sure, but if you want to make your case, link the thread, if you think it will vindicate you.
I don’t need vindication. But, have at it, if you have some time.
"it’s a non-political community focused on FOSS and Privacy." -moderated and controlled at least somewhat by tankies who will delete your comment and possibly ban you for saying things about their flavour of communism that they dont like
The whole reason this was posted is because of the users posting they got banned from ml for stating facts that tankies disagree with.
Such as?
They'll ban you for acknowledging the existence of the Uyghur genocide, for one
Edit: wording
Or calling out russian and chinese talking points. And then they have the same 10 users popping up whenever the instances are criticized saying "akshally privacy and no tanks..." (see above)
Lmao one of the Tankies let their Hexbuddies know about this thread and they've started mass downvoting
I do know they like to follow me....
Eta: its funny how often the threads they brigade start off with the common shill thoughts getting downvoted and actual leftist thought upvoted only for it to shift as the threads pick up steam. Im not convinced its possible to win this fight, if im honest.
Also, note the sheer absurd amount of comments in this thread for something with (atm) 338 points. They always do this and act like its not happening.
I mean. I block all the ones brave enough to actually post something. So up and downvoting is the only noticable way left they impact me. I consider that a win as it allows me to enjoy lemmy a whole lot more
Maybe because no human rights organizations, nor the United Nations have labeled it a genocide. Human rights violations, yes. Crimes against humanity, yes. Genocide, no.
Merely using the word Tankie has gotten me bigotry ruled recently. .ml is infected with Tankies regardless of what other people use it for.
Obfuscation. They know lemmygrad is too obviously tankie for most people, but lemmy.ml is not so obvious. The .ml is a dogwhistle that a lot of users won't understand, so they can buy some measure of legitimacy that way. I guess they keep lemmygrad because they also want a place where they can go full mask-off.
If your theory is correct, then why would they also keep many of their users uninformed? Referring to Lemmy.ml, of course. You claim it's for legitimacy, but doesn't that cease to fulfill its purpose? Is the goal to make a generalist instance, but with slightly more MLs, but also divert the MLs to Lemmygrad?
I'm not sure your theory is correct, I think Lemmy.ml is just what it says it is: a generalist, FOSS and Privacy focused instance run by the devs, who are MLs.
Because the users that don't know what the instance is for are the ones that help lend legitimacy to it, because then people like you can believe that it's just a general instance with no political undertones. You aren't running cover for them, you are their cover.
Just think for a second about what you're suggesting. They want to make an instance that is to lend legitimacy to a fringe political ideology, and they openly tell all of their users that that's exactly what they're doing? Then all anyone would need to do to destroy that legitimacy would be to publish whatever message the users receive explaining the true purpose of the instance. The cover only works if it's deniable, and your idea would make it completely undeniable.
That is one of the goals, yes.
Sorry, I really think this is ridiculous. Is Lemmy.world a cover for Liberalism, because it's run by liberals? Is db0 a cover for Anarchism and Libertarian Socialism, because db0 is a Libertarian Socialist? This is just red-scare style paranoia.
The very existance of Lemmygrad.ml should prove that there is an explicitly Marxist-Leninist space for MLs, and Lemmy.ml is a generalist instance for people who don't care enough about that but want a server dedicated to FOSS and Privacy.
Liberals and libertarian socialists are usually pretty open about what they believe, so there's no cover needed. They're not covert ideologies like tankies have.
However neoliberalism is a fairly hated ideology. If the people who ran lemmy.world were literally the same people running a neoliberalism sub on that instance and they also ran thatcher.love or whatever, and they banned people for saying neoliberalism was trash, then yeah, it would be a reasonable inference that lemmy.world was some sort of entryist ploy.
It is the existence of lemmygrad combined with the behaviour of the people running lemmy.ml that makes the case to defederate. If that happens and you don't like it, you could always migrate your account, unless you like it there, in which case you're probably not the normie you first appeared to be.
Edit: changed "fringe" to "covert".
Completely tangential, but imma be real with you: libsocs are fringe too.
Indeed, socialism of any sort is pretty fringe in most of the West.
That's a fair point, although I would say socialism is becoming less fringe, and it seems like the various types of libsoc are the main forms of socialism because people have seen the failures of state based solutions, even amongst demsocs/socdems.
That said, I kind of agree and the word "fringe" didn't sit quite right. On reflection a better word would be "covert", since ideologies that explicitly want to dominate people tend to hide what they are, since they know it's not acceptable to state their aims up front. That's really the idea I was getting at.
Fair
Lemmy.world regularly bans Marxist-Leninists, it is a two-way street there.
Again, I truly don't see how Lemmygrad taking the marxist-leninists means Lemmy.ml is a cover for Marxism-Leninism, it's a non-political community focused on FOSS and Privacy.
Just for being marxist-leninists? Or because they were toxic assholes?
Anecdotally I have seen Marxist-Leninists calmly arguing in politics communities banned for being "tankies." I will admit, I do not have any examples on-hand.
So do they regularly do this, or is it a thing you've seen anecdotally?
And if the thing they were calmly arguing was genocide denial, then the ban was warranted. The tone is not the only thing that matters.
Imagine if someone defended nazis with "they were calmly denying the Holocaust". I've seen far too many tankies denying the Uyghur genocide every chance they get. Like you say, it doesn't matter the tone; genocide denial is itself a line you don't cross.
I can’t find a reputable international human rights organization that calls it a genocide. Human Rights violations, sure. Crimes against humanity, maybe, but not genocide.
If it’s a genocide, why hasn’t it been taken to the International Court of Justice?
A majority of the countries that voted with China on that attempt were/are extremely tied to China and heavily economically reliant on China, and upsetting China enough means a potential economic crisis.
(UNCTAD & World Bank)
(note that Venezuela actually imported more from China than the US in 2020 according to some sources)
It only makes sense for them to not vote against China, no matter their actual crimes, it would be biting the hand that feeds them. It's a similar reason as to why almost no country officially recognizes Taiwan as its own country separate from PRC, despite continuing relations with Taiwan and even importing a lot from them.
Of course, EU/NATO/NATO-ish countries don't exactly care as much because their thoughts on China have long been established, China economically relies on them to a large extent, and they don't have as much to lose if China hypothetically did get a bit angry at them. The richer ones also have very low risk of actual "consequences" when criticizing the US so they tend to do it quite a lot, but here they seem to be in agreement.
Exactly. When the accused has paid off half the jury, you shouldn't put much stock in the verdict.
The only thing I care about when determining whether something is a genocide is the facts of the case (which are overwhelmingly in favor of describing the Uyghur genocide as a genocide), not the outcome of a highly political vote by countries all with their own motives and interests.
It’s almost like it would be geopolitically in America and Europe’s interest to over exaggerate a humanitarian crisis in China. And for China to minimize the cultural impact it’s policies have on the Uyghurs.
I dont have data on it, sorry to say.
I do. I had a post removed from political memes because apparently people didn’t like the fact that a Nazi was made a chairman in NATO. Adolf Heusinger
We know that, it's the implication that that somehow justifies Russia invading Ukraine is what makes you a tankie.
That was never brought up in the post or the comments. The post was removed for “misinformation,” when it is completely factual. The commenters first countered that it wasn’t true. He wasn’t actually a Nazi. He wasn’t a chairman. When that failed, they focused on the pedantry of “a” chairman versus “the” chairman. And I guess it was reported and removed.
Just pointing out that the same exclusionary tribalism happens on .world as it happens on .ml and Lemmygrad.
And your vague-posting about it gives a fair and balanced account, I'm sure, but if you want to make your case, link the thread, if you think it will vindicate you.
I don’t need vindication. But, have at it, if you have some time.
If that were the case, we wouldn't see a single rightwinger over here. Unfortunately, there are many.
Yes, moderation is famously capable of immediately removing every single toxic asshole in any forum.
"it’s a non-political community focused on FOSS and Privacy." -moderated and controlled at least somewhat by tankies who will delete your comment and possibly ban you for saying things about their flavour of communism that they dont like
The whole reason this was posted is because of the users posting they got banned from ml for stating facts that tankies disagree with.
Such as?
They'll ban you for acknowledging the existence of the Uyghur genocide, for one
Edit: wording
Or calling out russian and chinese talking points. And then they have the same 10 users popping up whenever the instances are criticized saying "akshally privacy and no tanks..." (see above)
Lmao one of the Tankies let their Hexbuddies know about this thread and they've started mass downvoting
I do know they like to follow me....
Eta: its funny how often the threads they brigade start off with the common shill thoughts getting downvoted and actual leftist thought upvoted only for it to shift as the threads pick up steam. Im not convinced its possible to win this fight, if im honest.
Also, note the sheer absurd amount of comments in this thread for something with (atm) 338 points. They always do this and act like its not happening.
I mean. I block all the ones brave enough to actually post something. So up and downvoting is the only noticable way left they impact me. I consider that a win as it allows me to enjoy lemmy a whole lot more
Maybe because no human rights organizations, nor the United Nations have labeled it a genocide. Human rights violations, yes. Crimes against humanity, yes. Genocide, no.
Merely using the word Tankie has gotten me bigotry ruled recently. .ml is infected with Tankies regardless of what other people use it for.
Edit: Oooh, the Tankie Brigade are here
ML wasn't machine learning? 😱
It's actually Mali, as in, the country.
and twitch.tv stands for tuvalu! definitely not television
And all the .io startups aren't located in the Indian Ocean!