nuanceposting rule
::: spoiler seen this post elsewhere? click for explanation This post got banned from !memes@lemmy.world for reason “Troll Posting” which is Very Disrespectful in my opinion. 😕
I mean this meme with full respect and love to my fellow community members and I was proud of the discussion and support it was creating.
EDIT: POST RESTORED YAY. (Thank you to the mods it turned out to be a misunderstanding.) :::
:::spoiler Important clarification/FAQ I am not calling to coddle or excuse the behavior of bigoted men in any way!
I am calling to be kind and understanding to young men (often ages 10-20) who are very manipulable and succeptible to the massive anti feminist propaganda machine. Hope this clarifies that very important distinction. :) :::
Very good comments that express key points:
- Detailed summary of the situation if you're wondering what's going on
- The rhetorical value of the bear hypothetical and what this means for you
- One example of why the long-term rhetorical value of the hypothetical is poor, in the context of intersectionality
- What does disenfranchisement mean in this context?
- The importance of not asking women to tone down their expressions of fear and frustration
- "But why can't they just say it nicely?"
- The importance of participation in kindness toward young men, specifically outside the context of people speaking their experiences
It's not on women to soften their complaints of rape and harassment to try to prevent men from becoming incels and Nazis.
For Fucks Sake
Men can deal with the very mild discomfort of being occasionally reminded women have to always be vigilant.
For fucks sake maybe part of the problem is men are ALWAYS told to shut up and that their problems dont matter as much as literally any other population. I initially responded to the meme with annoyance, but understanding, but the constant creep of aggression that it keeps coming back with has started to trigger my own baggage.
Do you realise how pathetic you sound? Women are told to shut their mouth and keep their opinions to themselves all the fucking time. It’s time for men like you to realise that sometimes yeah you should shut up and yeah your opinion is less important than the lived experience of women when it comes down to sexism and SA. Educate yourself please before you embarrass yourself even more.
Invisible women is a great book to start. Very easy to read and full of interesting statistics.
Yikes.
::: spoiler spoiler , :::
Oh so it's fine when it happens the other way, gotta perpetuate the anger somehow!
Maybe everyone should be allowed a voice and nobody should be told to shut up?
::: spoiler spoiler , :::
Why are you talking to a 15 year old like that?
It's not a competition. Let's all be better
Hey! I am here to tell you don’t shut up. ❤️
I am listening to and validating your stories. I don’t appreciate the other commenters jumping down your throat in this context.
There are a lot of emotions running high on all sides. What is needed is a deep breath and open mindedness but that is hard under a post that is already a reaction to a reaction.
If you haven’t already, check out !mensliberation@lemmy.ca, seen some positive stuff over there and I think you could find mutual value :)
I literally just want to say thank you. I've been trying to get across something similar, and I'm sure we'd disagree on a few issues. But your compassion and understanding of all points of view is genuinely inspiring
💖
SMH
It was a divisive comment that was certainly fueled by already-high emotions, the mods may have just done what was necessary to keep toxicity and flaming at bay.
I ask you to please not add fuel to the fire—nobody gains anything from the doubling down on hurt feelings. Listen to each other instead of trying to one-up.
I know, the only winning move is not to play. And the mods had limited options
Shoutout to the mods for putting up with the garbage behavior my post shuffled up. 🙏
And thank you friend for doing your part not to get me banned again :)
It's not personal. You aren't just a man, right?
::: spoiler spoiler , :::
Men don't run the world, oligarchs run the world
The homeless men you walk past on your way to work do not run the world
::: spoiler spoiler , :::
None of that has anything to do with the conversation. You're only justifying the fact that you're agreeing that men don't get to have problems and should just shut up
::: spoiler spoiler sdfsaf :::
absolutely agree ❤️
which is why i am very thankful for those who put in patience and effort into encouraging young men to see their shortcomings ~ outside the context of women voicing their experiences ~ in order to achieve a more equitable future for all
::: spoiler spoiler , :::
… no. thats what nuance is. i agree both with the text of my meme and with this commenter. holding two truths at once that, from a broad and shortsighted perspective, might seem contradictory but are not. the two are not mutually exclusive just because the differences are subtle.
nuance: the whole point of this post. internalize that please 😭
edit: and stop telling me what I am asking women and advocates to do. that is abusive behavior. very not cool, especially in this context. :(
Thank you, it's hard to fight for nuance in such a polarised world, but I appreciate your tenacity.
We can all be winners if we just talk
::: spoiler spoiler , :::
You obviously don't understand the meme and, at least from where I stand, are part of the problem.
::: spoiler spoiler sdfsaf :::
Stopping the progressive downfall of society is on all of society, period. What's the end game of alienating half the race?
You're right about one thing. Women can't make men not rape, and it doesn't really fall to them. Does it fall to the good guys, though? The ones who already don't rape and stand up to their peers who have toxic ideas? And, really, are you reaching anyone who needs to hear it with rhetoric like this?
Changing society is a game everyone has to be on board with. Everyone makes up society, so you can't just tell half of them they're not fit and expect it just to work out. Sure, not all men, but quite frankly I'm tired of having to be "one of the good ones". We already decided labeling someone one of the good ones wasn't right with black people, we really need to have that fight again?
Yes, precisely. If the majority of men don't change the culture by standing up for women and against low-key misogyny that's everywhere then nothing will change and they aren't really "good guys".
Dunno. But there's certainly a LOT of misogynists on Lemmy and I'm going to keep pushing back against them. They probably think they're feminists, too. Quoting bear statistics, saying "not all men", equivocating gender and race relations, telling women to "tone down" their complains so they don't alienate rapists and potential rapists.
Lol, don't fret. With an attitude like that, you aren't.
We aren't talking about race, honey. If they think you can just swap labels you REALLY don't understand what's going on. No surprise.
Not gonna bother with the nuance-missing ad hom attacks. Just this one.
If you can't see that it is 100% an equivalent situation, you have no idea why people are actually upset and just want to join the noise.
Also, don't call me honey. It's really degrading, id expect better from someone like you.
Whoosh
Oh no, I got your intent. Believe me.
And your statement is so pointlessly gendered it qualifies as transphobic.
Do tell how I am being transphobic. I did not speak of sex nor cis/trans distinctions. And binary trans people (cannot speak to nonbinary) have experience as both genders.
Also how is this pointless? The entire discussion revolves around the Patriarchy: a social system that gives dominance to men. Gender is at the heart of it. Trying to apply this discussion to other fields falls short because it is discussing the nuances of gender politics and the Patriarchy in particular. Which is why trying to overlay this discussion onto race or nationality doesn't make sense (referring to other common arguments, not this thread in particular).
Calling transphobia in such a disingenuous way is pretty gross. There is nothing wrong with your comment, as trans man I stand fully behind it. Bigots try to divide feminists and trans people often in similar ways but we won’t let them ❤️
::: spoiler spoiler , :::
Thanks. I'm not sure what it is but any talk of men-women gender privilege gets a LOT of flak from pro-men posters on Lemmy. Unsure if it's instance-based or just general userbase outside LGBT+ instances. I've blocked a few bad ones but I see the flak from across a wide array of instances.
I try to push back hard against disingenuous arguments to try to clue people in. I've tried what this thread suggests, and still do try to use logic and honest discussion but when I see the same dumb argument 5 times in a thread, I lose patience.