israeli tourists should be banned from entering the EU, same as russian tourists. People from these two fucking countries should not be allowed in.
As someone from Russia - I'm confused really, while I'd feel offended myself, I know what Russian tourists are like in general. Ahem.
The people of Russia aren't guilty of anything.
In principle, the same is true of Israelites.
We don't judge a people by their nation state. That's how atrocities get normalized.
Israels population continued to vote for Netanyahu or even worse fascists and even the so called "center" and "center left" have been largely in support of continued settler colonial displacements and ethnic cleansings. Still a majority is in support of the current genocide.
The opposition to being a white supremacists "Blut und Boden, Lebensraum" Fascist state are in the small minority unfortunately.
...and Germans voted for Hitler.
Americans did and will again vote for trump. That doesn't mean all Americans want what he wants.
Y'all are fucking ridiculous. It's alarming.
And Germans have to take the responsibility for the atrocities of the Nazi time yes. What are you on about? If people vote for a government in a democratic election they bear responsibility for it. Not individually but as a people.
Also the Germans voted Hitler once and then there were no more elections. Israel had 11 elections since Netanyahu first came into power. And also the non Netanyahu governments continued the "settlements" aka ethnic cleansing of the West Bank.
To reiterate: We don't judge a people by their nation state. That's how atrocities get normalized.
Denying people tourist visas based on their country being complicit in a genocide is not an atrocity. Committing genocide is.
To reiterate: We don't judge a people by their nation state. That's how atrocities get normalized.
So by your logic Germany should not have paid reparations to the survivors and descendants of the Holocaust and should have paid no reparations to the countries it invaded? Because that was paid by the tax payer money of the people who were part of the war generation and the generations after. Even though clearly the generations after were not directly complicit, they bear the historic responsibility.
What you are advocating for under the guise of not "normalizing atrocities" is to simply abolish every people from being held accountable for their atrocities.
No I'm not. You're putting so, so many inaccurate words in my mouth. That's why I simply repeat myself so you can continue to play crazy person.
We don't judge the Russian people for Putin's actions.
We don't judge Germans for Hitler's actions.
People are people. Countries are countries.
To reiterate: We don't judge a people by their nation state. That's how atrocities get normalized.
We do judge those people who voted for Hitler. The Germans do so as well. We use that political party as a slur for a reason. I would not be surprised if other countries use "Nazi" as a slur as well.
Russia's election is a joke. That's what makes this different from blaming the Germans who voted for Hitler for giving the world Hitler.
Voted for?
Your words not mine.
Are you getting paid by Zionists to spam that thing about the nation state, it's really fucking weird
Why would you think I am a Zionist? jfc. You people are braindead.
You don't judge people based on where they're fucking born.
Do you know what "nation state" means? Apparently not.
Why'd you downvote me, I didn't ask what you were, I asked if they were paying you. Clearly your hands are running faster than your brain is.
Only about ~30% actually voted for Hitler if memory serves.
Not that it makes it ok, but...
Ok now try pointing out that Gazans voted for Hamas. I’ll get the popcorn.
Try living under violent, oppressive, ethno-nationalist, colonialist, apartheid for 80+ years and see what options you and your family might be willing to consider.
Also add in the direct monetary support from Likud and Netanyahu to prop them up as the only viable option.
Yes, an average russian or Israeli person is not likely to have directly participated in the recent events.
The catch, though, it's that by not opposing the actions of their governments, they DO contribute to the events indirectly. They pay taxes. They work at factories producing weapons. They make the food that the soldiers eat.
On top of that it's not russian government who's currently pulling the triggers and dropping bombs. Just regular folks who just follow orders.
Yes, protesting in russia is not easy, but the war keeps going on because the government sees that people aren't worried too much about it.
And yes, in both countries there are people who actively oppose, but the majority doesn't.
And that majority is complicit.
I used to think a bit on this line. But as I watched the rise of Trump I came to realize that most of his supporters were simply dupped by his lies, and manipulated because of human nature. Many aren't bad people, but they honestly believe what they have been told. So thier crime is being human, and what turns out to be an average amount gullible.
We really need to find a way to hold the leaders accountable.
I'm the opposite. I believe Trump supporters are fully responsible for their own actions. If they go and kill someone, I don't fucking care if Trump told them to do it when they had other choices. Unless these people are so mentally deficient that they'd need constant care and legal guardians to make decisions for them then they are completely capable of choosing to not be shit heads.
Individual actions, of course. But I don't hold them responsible for trumps administration's actions. They were tricked and continue to be so. And society falled them long ago.
That's pretty much the point of banality of evil - you don't need an extraordinary assembly of psychopaths to run a fascist regime. All it takes is a group of loud populists, generally discontent crowd and, boom, you have "make Germany great again".
After ww2 finished, both Germanies discovered that they don't really have enough people without Nazi past that could run the country. So most folks just went back to work to slightly renamed workplaces.
Does that mean they were not complicit? They were and the winners made sure Germans would learn about what they caused.
I guess the only excuse back the was that they didn't know better. But we do.
Sounds like you are saying it's the leaders and such, not the crowd. I agree. I don't blame the rank and file for being dupped by people they were raised to trust.
The Israeli government knows how to hold their own accountable, read history of Zionist paramilitaries like Irgun and Lehi. Their genocidal legacy Likud is using all people in Israel, not just Jews, as human shields, exactly in the same way they accused Hamas of doing as an excuse in order to flatten Gaza on the US working taxpayer's dime.
Couldn't disagree more. They're not duped, their thrilled to take off the mask.
Noone is born racist.
Oh okay let's just nuke em all then good plan
It's not about guilt, it's about the reality of propaganda radicalizing the population.
Of course not everyone in any of those countries is mindrotten, but that's like #NotAllMen, it's not about the individual, but the "culture".
I don't know if I agree with radical policies like what the parent comment proposes though.
I've seen Russians get arrested for protesting the war and I've seen Israeli children encourage by adults to stomp on food aid they blocked.
Israeli "settlers" have been stealing land from Palestinian families that have lived there for generations. For decades.
I agree that Jewish people as a whole aren't guilty, but the type that go into other people's homes, on other people's land in other people's countries are the same type that carry AR-15s when marching into a village in the West Bank to say, "this is mine now." Fuck those people.
It's ok to call the Proud Boys shit without damning the entire US population.
So then you are agreeing with my heavily downvoted opinion.
We don't judge a people by their nation state. That's how atrocities get normalized.
Where did I judge these people by their nation state? I'm judging them based on their actions.
This behavior is very reminiscent of the behavior of Israeli "settlers" in the West Bank, and I was pointing out that comparison.
I judge the nation of Israel, which is democratic with mandatory conscription (i.e. brainwashing every Israeli adult into believing Palestinians are literally subhuman) for creating these people. But in a democratic system, the people aren't entirely blameless.
And no it's not the same as Hitler, he was (barely) elected and then seized power and did away with the democracy, so it's not like the German people could have just voted him out (not that they would have).
We (humans) have already settled this anyway. Read The Banality of Evil to understand why the German people are absolutely not blameless, and it's perfectly acceptable to criticize them as individuals.
Yo don't judge people based on where they're born, jfc.
israeli tourists should be banned from entering the EU, same as russian tourists. People from these two fucking countries should not be allowed in.
As someone from Russia - I'm confused really, while I'd feel offended myself, I know what Russian tourists are like in general. Ahem.
The people of Russia aren't guilty of anything.
In principle, the same is true of Israelites.
We don't judge a people by their nation state. That's how atrocities get normalized.
Israels population continued to vote for Netanyahu or even worse fascists and even the so called "center" and "center left" have been largely in support of continued settler colonial displacements and ethnic cleansings. Still a majority is in support of the current genocide.
The opposition to being a white supremacists "Blut und Boden, Lebensraum" Fascist state are in the small minority unfortunately.
...and Germans voted for Hitler.
Americans did and will again vote for trump. That doesn't mean all Americans want what he wants.
Y'all are fucking ridiculous. It's alarming.
And Germans have to take the responsibility for the atrocities of the Nazi time yes. What are you on about? If people vote for a government in a democratic election they bear responsibility for it. Not individually but as a people.
Also the Germans voted Hitler once and then there were no more elections. Israel had 11 elections since Netanyahu first came into power. And also the non Netanyahu governments continued the "settlements" aka ethnic cleansing of the West Bank.
To reiterate: We don't judge a people by their nation state. That's how atrocities get normalized.
Denying people tourist visas based on their country being complicit in a genocide is not an atrocity. Committing genocide is.
To reiterate: We don't judge a people by their nation state. That's how atrocities get normalized.
So by your logic Germany should not have paid reparations to the survivors and descendants of the Holocaust and should have paid no reparations to the countries it invaded? Because that was paid by the tax payer money of the people who were part of the war generation and the generations after. Even though clearly the generations after were not directly complicit, they bear the historic responsibility.
What you are advocating for under the guise of not "normalizing atrocities" is to simply abolish every people from being held accountable for their atrocities.
No I'm not. You're putting so, so many inaccurate words in my mouth. That's why I simply repeat myself so you can continue to play crazy person.
We don't judge the Russian people for Putin's actions.
We don't judge Germans for Hitler's actions.
People are people. Countries are countries.
To reiterate: We don't judge a people by their nation state. That's how atrocities get normalized.
We do judge those people who voted for Hitler. The Germans do so as well. We use that political party as a slur for a reason. I would not be surprised if other countries use "Nazi" as a slur as well.
Russia's election is a joke. That's what makes this different from blaming the Germans who voted for Hitler for giving the world Hitler.
Voted for?
Your words not mine.
Are you getting paid by Zionists to spam that thing about the nation state, it's really fucking weird
Why would you think I am a Zionist? jfc. You people are braindead.
You don't judge people based on where they're fucking born.
Do you know what "nation state" means? Apparently not.
Why'd you downvote me, I didn't ask what you were, I asked if they were paying you. Clearly your hands are running faster than your brain is.
Only about ~30% actually voted for Hitler if memory serves.
Not that it makes it ok, but...
Ok now try pointing out that Gazans voted for Hamas. I’ll get the popcorn.
Try living under violent, oppressive, ethno-nationalist, colonialist, apartheid for 80+ years and see what options you and your family might be willing to consider.
Also add in the direct monetary support from Likud and Netanyahu to prop them up as the only viable option.
Oh, 100% of them did?
See and now I get the downvotes. lol
Here's some read for you: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eichmann_in_Jerusalem#Banality_of_evil
Yes, an average russian or Israeli person is not likely to have directly participated in the recent events.
The catch, though, it's that by not opposing the actions of their governments, they DO contribute to the events indirectly. They pay taxes. They work at factories producing weapons. They make the food that the soldiers eat.
On top of that it's not russian government who's currently pulling the triggers and dropping bombs. Just regular folks who just follow orders.
Yes, protesting in russia is not easy, but the war keeps going on because the government sees that people aren't worried too much about it.
And yes, in both countries there are people who actively oppose, but the majority doesn't.
And that majority is complicit.
I used to think a bit on this line. But as I watched the rise of Trump I came to realize that most of his supporters were simply dupped by his lies, and manipulated because of human nature. Many aren't bad people, but they honestly believe what they have been told. So thier crime is being human, and what turns out to be an average amount gullible. We really need to find a way to hold the leaders accountable.
I'm the opposite. I believe Trump supporters are fully responsible for their own actions. If they go and kill someone, I don't fucking care if Trump told them to do it when they had other choices. Unless these people are so mentally deficient that they'd need constant care and legal guardians to make decisions for them then they are completely capable of choosing to not be shit heads.
Individual actions, of course. But I don't hold them responsible for trumps administration's actions. They were tricked and continue to be so. And society falled them long ago.
That's pretty much the point of banality of evil - you don't need an extraordinary assembly of psychopaths to run a fascist regime. All it takes is a group of loud populists, generally discontent crowd and, boom, you have "make Germany great again".
After ww2 finished, both Germanies discovered that they don't really have enough people without Nazi past that could run the country. So most folks just went back to work to slightly renamed workplaces.
Does that mean they were not complicit? They were and the winners made sure Germans would learn about what they caused.
I guess the only excuse back the was that they didn't know better. But we do.
Sounds like you are saying it's the leaders and such, not the crowd. I agree. I don't blame the rank and file for being dupped by people they were raised to trust.
The Israeli government knows how to hold their own accountable, read history of Zionist paramilitaries like Irgun and Lehi. Their genocidal legacy Likud is using all people in Israel, not just Jews, as human shields, exactly in the same way they accused Hamas of doing as an excuse in order to flatten Gaza on the US working taxpayer's dime.
Couldn't disagree more. They're not duped, their thrilled to take off the mask.
Noone is born racist.
Oh okay let's just nuke em all then good plan
It's not about guilt, it's about the reality of propaganda radicalizing the population.
Of course not everyone in any of those countries is mindrotten, but that's like #NotAllMen, it's not about the individual, but the "culture".
I don't know if I agree with radical policies like what the parent comment proposes though.
I've seen Russians get arrested for protesting the war and I've seen Israeli children encourage by adults to stomp on food aid they blocked.
Israeli "settlers" have been stealing land from Palestinian families that have lived there for generations. For decades.
I agree that Jewish people as a whole aren't guilty, but the type that go into other people's homes, on other people's land in other people's countries are the same type that carry AR-15s when marching into a village in the West Bank to say, "this is mine now." Fuck those people.
It's ok to call the Proud Boys shit without damning the entire US population.
So then you are agreeing with my heavily downvoted opinion.
We don't judge a people by their nation state. That's how atrocities get normalized.
Where did I judge these people by their nation state? I'm judging them based on their actions.
This behavior is very reminiscent of the behavior of Israeli "settlers" in the West Bank, and I was pointing out that comparison.
I judge the nation of Israel, which is democratic with mandatory conscription (i.e. brainwashing every Israeli adult into believing Palestinians are literally subhuman) for creating these people. But in a democratic system, the people aren't entirely blameless.
And no it's not the same as Hitler, he was (barely) elected and then seized power and did away with the democracy, so it's not like the German people could have just voted him out (not that they would have).
We (humans) have already settled this anyway. Read The Banality of Evil to understand why the German people are absolutely not blameless, and it's perfectly acceptable to criticize them as individuals.
Yo don't judge people based on where they're born, jfc.