So is Israel just going to completely overtake Palestine?
I saw an article about them attacking Lebanon now. So, where will it stop? Have the Israeli government ever spoken about this?
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I saw an article about them attacking Lebanon now. So, where will it stop? Have the Israeli government ever spoken about this?
This may not be a popular response but when did the nazi regime stop? When did China stop with it's cleansing? America and manifest destiny? I could go on... Humanity needs to realize that we are pretty shitty in general and can't be trusted when it comes to hatred, entitlement, and tribalism.
The solution is a neutral third party with sufficient power to stop any country's bullshit through economic and military (actual) peacekeeping... which doesn't exist nor will it ever.
So the short answer is they will stop when the cleansing is complete.
After the deed is done we as 'civilized' nations will lament the tragedy and promise change... until the media cycle washes all those sins down the drain and it will be forgotten until next time.
I am in no way saying what's going on is right...anytime massive amounts of life is taken it's horrible. With that being said you realize that there isn't a single country in the entire world that wasn't built on the blood of others? Every civilization that's here now destroyed some other one. People act like they live in some place that asked nicely to have the land they have.
Oh, I'm fully aware. Tribalism is the lizard brain going deeeep in the paint. The problem is this: peaceful culture doesn't fight back - aggressive culture exploits this: which one thrives? We have systematically bred for and codified our warlike nature. This is the result. Is it fixable? Many have tried. Our history books are littered with both failed attempts and their distorted remains. All I can say for certain is that the way the majority of countries are structured... isn't it. This is fundamentally why achieving a fix is nearly impossible at scale: tribalism. Even if we are wrong it's our wrong and we don't want to lose it. This is rooted in fear of change which from a survival aspect makes sense... but becomes detrimental at scale.
I agree with what you're saying and it's too bad most people are too stupid to move forward with that mindset because I for one would rather we could all get along but for invisible reasons many people can't..which is in itself quite unintelligent
No. Moral. States
No. That would not be a solution for anything! That would just be an even bigger threat to humanity.
I disagree. It's about execution - creating an environment that is resistant to corrosion. A standing force can absolutely be viewed in that manner - which is why it cannot be a single static standing force.
The UN is the right idea but it needs teeth. And it needs the teeth to be double sided. If boots are on the ground peacekeeping they should be without bias and secondary interest. An attack on a peacekeeper has no guarantee of the creed nor country of origin of that keeper.
Peacekeeping should be like a draft. Every country that participates must provide and maintain a set number of rolling participants. These people will serve and train initially in humanitarian deployments with others.. half way through their 'term' they should be moved to peacekeeping duties. This is idealized but would be good for both building trust amongst peacekeepers and goodwill towards them. This solves the military portion (roughly) - I have a lot of thoughts on this and believe it to be solvable... it just won't be. No country gets to benefit therefore it has no merit.
That covered the military side... when talking about the economic side: the peacekeepers (let's say un for simplicity) carry the ability to (by vote) censure a country and cut it off from direct trade / support. At that time any trade is then routed through the UN and it becomes the middleman. This allows economic pressures to be precisely controlled on an area. Once that country falls in line, by majority vote, operations are restored. Once again this is idealized and has no obviously advantaged party ... so it has no merit and will never occur.
Basically everyone is equally held accountable and equally invested. Of course this means everyone gets a seat at the table and everyone gets one vote. I'm certain we can already see why this has 0 chance of ever happening. Those in power seek to keep it - very few will willingly give some away.
A nice dream, but only a dream.
Unfortunately man is not perfect enough for it to work. Therefore the outcome can be nothing else than a huge threat for mankind.
I said as much multiple times.
The point of that statement was to highlight that it is possible to construct something that does not allow for consolidation and corruption of power... which it did. Your view simply was looking at present day examples which, as you correctly identified, do not work. That doesn't mean nothing can work however ... which is why I disagreed.
It's a fun mental exercise to what if and try to construct something that could work. Can't tear something down without considering what rebuilding it would look like.
But yes, it does.
be careful about using the term 'execution' here ;-)
...until morale improves? Dually noted lol.
Options for this third party?
Aliens.
Which ones exactly
This is the most reasonable approach, but as seen with the UN, wich as the sum of its parts failed to keep dictatorships out wich now basically control everything but the security Council and the ICJ, its a Utopist approach sadly. There cant be a peace unless Israel takes over Palestine and treats the people that live there now as equal (wich they do already btw, the myth about apartheid is BS there are many Arab Palestinians living in Israel and many went to work in Israel from gaza) but the problem with the surrounding terrorists is another problem.
The claim of Israeli apartheid does not pertain to the status of Israeli Arabs fyi. It pertains to de facto Israeli control of Gaza and the West Bank, where any time they want the IDF can exercise as much control as they want, by virtue of superior firepower.
Hamas, for instance, only persisted because the Israelis allowed it. Israel controlled the majority of access to the regions, and could and did unilaterally police them with military force at will.
Yeah shure because Hamas isnt constantly firing rockets into Israel... If there is a defakto control how exactly would the 7th October have happened...
This is just idiotic.
De facto control does not mean 100% control over every event that happens. People are still humans, and capable of making errors. It is not mind reading/mind control powers, those are still impossible.
Yeah shure...
Israel has defakto 0 control over Gaza except for the borders normally. Everything inside is controlled by Hamas. And if you think otherwise you have never been there and you don't know anything about it.
Except they would routinely send in military forces to capture terrorist suspects in a process they referred to as "mowing the grass". It's even more pronounced in the West Bank, where the Israeli settlements are thoroughly intermingled with the Palestinian ones, and the Palestinians had relatively few powers over their own security.
It's not a simple thing, unfortunately. Middle Eastern politics seldom are, just in general.
The civilians in Palestinia in general are victims, thats clear, but the reason they are is hamas and the narrative they propagate about the victim hood that got somehow transferred through generations just as their state as refugees would have according to them.
But yes the settlement thing is a shitshow, but nither side recognized the existence of the other and both claim the possession of the entire area, however, Israel clearly has more rights to it due to the fact that the people in Gaza and the other parts aren't the people that lived there before Israel, they are mostly the descendants of the Arabs that attacked Israel shortly after it was declared a state, with the intention of a genocide. The original Palestinians live in Israel (many of them btw killed on the 7th October pogrom/genocide attempt) and have the same rights as the Christians, jews and everyone else, Israel is a super diverse country with lots of immigrants from all over the world. The claims about apartheid by Hamas (supported by un) are absolutely outlandish and just not true.
Oh and... When you have terrorists as you neighborhood you gotta make shure they don't plot teroristic shit and remove the ones that do. That doesn't mean anything about control thats just trying to keep a never ending Forrest fire within certain boundaries.
The claim of Israeli apartheid is not a hamas claim, it's acknowledged by various Israelis as well. Neither Gaza nor, especially the West Bank, has had full independence in many years.
Note, I am not talking about any Israeli citizens. I am talking about Israeli non-citizens who live under Israeli restrictions and off-and-on military control. This is the nature of apartheid. A people that is separate, but not fully independent. An in-between state of conquest, where you're sort-of conquered but not really and have some, but not full, freedoms.
Uhhh autonomous regions that don't see themselves as part of a country and behave like that are obviously not treated like citizens... Thats not apartheid thats common sense. And Israel blockade of Gaza is 100% justified because hamas uses basically everything as weapon transport.
Except it is not under full Palestinian control either. Some things are controlled by Palestinians, other things are indeed controlled by Israelis. When a country is exercising partial control over citizens that are not its own, something odd is happening.
You can justify it if you like, but it is not the normal way of things where free people are concerned.
No its not normal and people living in a country governed by terrorists are never free, be gay in the autonomous region and you get to choose between being thrown of a building or hung or something worse...
There is no such thing as freedom as long as there are terrorists and as long as most support them.
Oh and both Israel and the autonomous region do claim ownership of each others territory and by that the people, so. Yes. Its complicated.
Extremely complicated, certainly. But I hope my point that the apartheid claim, very specifically, is pretty hard to argue with comes through. It does not refer to any Israeli citizens, that's a separate topic. It is not strictly hamas propaganda, it's just a criticism of one part of a very complicated and difficult situation. The line that it is propaganda is actually itself, propaganda.
The only way to make it untrue was if Palestinians had full legal control over the West Bank, which they do not. Gaza is a murkier situation. It's really about the West Bank though, not hamas or Gaza.
Israel recognised Palestinian civilian and security control of the West bank in the Oslo accords from the 90's. They are blatantly shitting on their own promises whenever a genocidic occupier or their enabling security forces set foot on the West Bank without express permission from the Palestinian West Bank government.
Yeah the promise to ignore all genocidal attempts, rocket barrages and what not. You are not just a clown, you are the entire fucking clown academy.
"rocket barrages" lol that's rich.
Then Israel responds by murdering 100x civilians including women and children.
Complete disproportionate response after Iron Dome basically prevents any Israelis from dying from those so-called "rocket barrages."
Each time it's one or two Israeli soldiers killed by the one rocket out of 40 that made it in, and by a week later 1,200 Palestinian civilians are murdered. Cool.
Over and over for 5+ decades. It's just objective fact, the numbers are publicly available. I don't forget, so the people in Gaza and the West Bank sure as shit don't (between fighting off "settlers" with AR-15s from New Jersey storming their villages in the middle of the night). Israel created every Palestinian terrorist after decades of oppression, displacement, apartheid, and dire hopelessness. Almost like it's what they wanted.
And now literal genocide. Their end goal. A final solution if you will.
Textbook Hamas propaganda. Absolut mental diarrhea and just misinformation.
Wow. Go away nazi.
I mean if you born in Gaza your birth needs to be registered with Israel. Otherwise you will lack the necessary documents to get through the checkpoints.
Obviously, Gaza or Palestinia in general doesn't give out recognized papers. Its a autonomous region for a reason.
They wouldn't be allowed to enter any other country without said documents either.
There is no actual reason why it should ne otherwise.
"Autonomous region" is a technical label, but it does not negate the fact they don't control their borders or who ultimately says their children are actual people.
The UN while created with noble intentions certainly fell for the paradox of tolerance. They tolerate the dictatorships and human rights abusers because if they didn't they'd be much less empowered to take action against them, or worse they'd form their own competing UN made up of nations motivated to join them and you'd just end up with another NATO and Warsaw Pact for example. It's damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Ultimately the challenge comes down to how do you ultimately tame the leaders of the world who have absolute power. The founding fathers of the United States of America thought they had the solution with democracy and the many checks and balances they implemented into this new form of government they setup, but even that has its challenges and failures that they never could have forseen. The UN was the next experiment, trying to take the similar principles onto the world stage, and it's been less successful (but at least has had some successes)
Yes absolutely but the dictatorships and shitshow countries (china for example) keep growing in numbers, if this trend isn't reversed fast, UN fails as a whole and there is no saving.
It would be better in my opinion to have two options, democratic union and whatever the dictatorships do with each other, because the only thing that united them is being against democracy and Israel. UN, in my personal opinion, already failed as a whole and is beyond saving.
The big part of a government is, that it has power to enforce whatever it decides, UN gladly does not have any meaningful power, Israel would be gone by now otherwise.
Well those successes slowly but steadily crumble away, the most institutions have failed, WHO is doing its job only half assed (especially the making shure hospital aren't used as military bases) the human rights Council is majorly filled with people that think human rights are shit and only need to apply it when it fits against the west or Israel specifically, the General Assembly is almost the same. (fun fact, the day of the Russian attack on Ukraine the general assembly voted about condemning Israel for something... Again. Most resolutions are against Israel.) Oh and the entire UNHWR wich is definitely more than partially responsible for hamas doing what they do.
UN isn't even a diplomatic forum anymore.
The Apartheid is very much real, and, while to a much lesser extent than the Palestinian Occupied Territories, also applies to the Palestinian Citizens of Israel
Other reports about how Israel is an Apartheid State:
Human Rights Watch Report
B'TSelem Report with quick Explainer
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watch
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Amnesty_International
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%27Tselem
I think you might need to read this i won't read your comment or open those links, your sources are very openly and clearly biased and known to be very antisemitic and to hate Israel. There is nothing to gain from them.
Criticism of the Human Rights Abuses of the Israeli State and Anti-zionism are not antisemitism. You are choosing to be willfully ignorant. Israel does NOT represent all Jewish people, nor does their actions. There have been prominent Jewish people extremely critical of Zionism since it's inception, are you seriously saying they are antisemitic too?
Israel is the one that intentionally conflates the two in order to deflect from criticizm. When Israel commits war crimes, or human rights abuses, or land grabbing, they are the ones that claim they do so for all Jewish people. When Zionist actions are criticized, they call it antisemitic. The conflation of the two is genuinely antisemitic, as the actions of Israel in no way represent all Jewish people.
If you don't want to be naive, I suggest you read the reports by human rights organizations. They are not antisemitic, unless you think advocates for a Secular Bi-National State with equal rights for both Israelis and Palestinians is also antisemitic, which is insane.
Year before Oct 7 - Jewish Voice for Peace
2023 is 'deadliest year' for Palestinian children say human rights groups (Oct 6th)
HRW Events of 2022 and HRW Events of 2023
Jewish voice for peace is a super left wing anti Israel organization.
New Arab is a shitshow. Also yeah shure the 10k rockets hamas fired from gaza after 7th had a 20% failure rate... They are usually fired from residential areas or sometimes from school/hospitals. So yeah shure many gaza children died. "OH SAVE THE CHILDREN!" they screamed as they murdered children from another religion/ethnicity...
HRW again, im not reading that, i cant even, ive blocked their domains in my DNS due to given reason provided.
Oh and yes i absolutely see a two state solution as absolutely impossible and borderline Antisemitic currently (after 7th October)
You are aware that what Israel is doing in Gaza is comparable to the nazi treatment of e.g. the Warsaw ghettos.... right?
Take a step back, and look at the Israeli soldiers mocking Palestinian dead, mistreating the wounded and captured, and shooting at clearly unarmed civilians for fun. All this while they brag about it on video. Look at that and tell me that it doesn't give you a sick feeling to your stomach of the type you haven't had since you saw photos of concentration camps.
There are dozens of children that have literally STARVED TO DEATH in Gaza because of Israel's actions. They're dying the same deaths that Jews were put through in concentration camps. Don't you see the horrifying irony in this?
Israel is at a point where humanitarian workers from recognised international organisations have been targeted and killed, and they brush it off as a "mistake".
I cannot think about anything in the past 70 years that compares to what Israel is doing, and I hope beyond hope that some force will smite their government and armed forces such that the slaughter will stop. Because it is a slaughter. It's not a war when Israel is counting its dead on its fingers, while there are enough missing Palestinians in the rubble to fill a football stadium. It's just Israel wilfully bombing, burning and slaughtering, with nobody stopping them.
All this, and you have the fucking audacity to talk about antisemitism? Take a look at the world, and ask yourself how calling for an end to this can have anything to do with the religious beliefs of the perpetrators.
You are aware that you talk absolut mental diarrhea and make not a single coherent sentence in the above comment...
Oh and "THE CHILDREN!!!!!"
Im blocking you now, arguing with you is like trying to teach a wall to do a backflip.
What a class A moron. You can't even respond to a single thing they say, so it's just "mental diarrhea". Every one of your comments is evading their points so hard, your mental gymnastics would qualify you for the Special Olympics if they didn't have a minimum IQ requirement.
As a person with jewish ancestry, what you are spewing makes me feel ill. Antizionism is not antisemitism. If it were, so many jews will be antisemitic? Please, grow up.
As a person with German ancestry i kindly don't care if you personally are against it. Israel is a state and being for the abolishment of Israel is antisemitism, even from Jewish people.
Maybe learn about the history of a place outside of the Islamnazi propaganda.
Oh, I learned plenty, and not from Islamic centered resources. But you wouldn't be able to discern it because you are speaking from hate, not from facts. Besides, there are many jewish academics who support Palestine and are against the genocide of Palestinians. And neither they nor I claim that supporting them is antisemitic or that it requires the genocide of the Israeli people. Only someone with a warped and dellusional understanding of history could make the claims you make.