I'd prefer gradual reform over collapse. Less shocking to our culture/economy that way I think.
Yeah well gradual reform is right-wing liberal propaganda that makes marginalized groups suffer even more for our own privilege. It doesn't work.
Just to be clear if you had a magic button that would result in guaranteed gradual reform if you pressed it. And not pressing it would result in collapse.
You would press the button, right?
I would kill the person who was forcing me to push such an absurd button. I'd celebrate the death of any nation that supported the button's existence
How do you feel about democracies? Like say it post collapse and revolution. You ended up on top. Would you create a democracy?
This may come as an absolute shock, but this is a post gleefully celebrating the idea of the downfall of a genocidal regime
If you want to discuss anarchist theory, there are much better forums for that than 196. Too many libs here.
So you don't feel safe answering my question. I won't force an answer.
I don't think this is the right place, no
There are liberals and even overt racists present in this thread
After reading a bit. It seems like a Democratic system. I didn't get the details but assuming the people who are appointed to the councils are voted upon. And voting happens within the councils. Then I would say yeah the system is Democratic.
Anarchism could be considered the most democratic system in the world, even if we don't tend to apply that term
Conversely, since it by definition requires the absence of hierarchies, we wouldn't have a situation where we are compelled to oppress marginalized groups, no matter how popular the idea may be (I'm thinking here for example of how US liberals say our president has "no choice" but to imprison immigrants and participate in genocide just because there are enough racists that agree we should oppress these groups)
I could go on, but I'm going to shut up now before someone pops out of a well
That's fair. I think generally anarchists have good ideas. If there is a violent revolution, I would probably end up being your comrade in arms.
I don't think we would win though. Most people think anarchism is a bad word right now. I can't imagine recruiting fighters during the revolution under the banner of anarchism. Hell even progressivism isn't very popular. As always, liberals are the problem.
We may have to have a revolution but I think it needs way more time to cook.
I'd participate in revolution because I'm not so ideologically entrenched that I'd refuse participation any anti-capitalist movement, but my ideal vision would be more aligned to what the Zapatistas have tried to do
Interesting. I'm pretty ignorant about the Zapatistas. Looking over the Wikipedia and they seem all right.
I don't quite follow you. Do you mean like instead of winning the revolution. You take a chunk of the country create borders and install some kind of anarchy?
We are a "first past the post" electoral system. That alone should disillusion you of hope for any change through voting.
Biden is "the most progressive president we've ever had." This is probably sadly true, which again shows that anyone who cares about marginalized groups should hope for the collapse of such an outrageously atrocious system.
Collapse is best. We should work towards collapse.
Edit: Autocorrect sucks donkey ass
i don't think the left wing is best positioned to take power if there was a collapse
i think a collapse would bring the us significantly more right wing
It's never how it works. See, we get a century or so of dictatorships, with each new guy overthrowing the previous and promising to be better, and failing to be.
Somewhere along the line (because for some reason we won't do this in advance) intellectuals will in secret start developing some rules for a public-run government (democracy or sortition are popular), but no political leader or revolutionary leader will be actually willing to try them (because they like the power), until absolutely everyone is tired of the wars and coups because absolutely everyone has close friends and relatives they had to put into the cold ground.
And then the new Communist / Socialist / Anarchist / Whatever United States will rise, since the point is to be able to change the rules without someone shooting someone else.
Which is what happens when either the legislature, executive or courts collapse into corruption and seize power. The four boxes of liberty are a warning the first three (soapbox, ballot box, jury box) are all that keep the ammunition box closed and unused.
Yeah we're a nation of shit people overall. All the more reason collapse is best overall. I'm willing to suffer and die if it means Palestinians and immigrants can be spared
but if the right wing took power of america's arsenal i think more Palestinians and immigrants would die
Better make sure you support the lefties then if you don’t want a nazi government. Liberals have historically proven themselves to support nazis over leftists during a revolution, I hope you will do differently if you actually believe what you say.
Let's give the land back to the Native Americans then! Surely they can't do worse than our inherently corrupt, atrocious system, right?
Certainly if we are "first past the post" and our biggest hope for change and "most progressive" president is a bigoted genocidaire, we're better with them in charge, agreed?
certainly sir right you are
but, just one more thing
i don't think a group of people that the state has spent centuries stamping out are in a position to successfully hold together a country as wide-spread and diverse as the united states, so i feel like just handing it over with no other intervention is as good as a free for all, and i think that just leads to a right wing takeover
Yikes, so you oppose returning the land to Native groups for the sake of holding together a nation that is objectively more racist and genocidal than Nazi Germany. Yikes.
That's not what they're saying. They say that if you gave land back right now, you'd have massive violence against natives and likely other marginalized people by the fascists that have been building militias for years now. A revolution needs popular support, and I just don't see that at the moment.
Voting will also not change that. But neither will not voting, at least not for the better. Treat it like a chore, like you're taking out the trash. That won't clean your house, but if you don't, you're gonna live in filth before long.
Liberals think that voting is the end of politics, but that's where the actual work begins. Organize your workplace, your local community and with marginalized people. Build the support needed to tear this fucked up, cruel and callous system down. So when the collapse comes, fascism will not win. The people will.
The majority of people here are racist and will always be racist, so you're right that pandering to popular support is a dumbass idea
Are racist? Yeah probably. But I refuse to accept that they always will be. And there can't be a leftist revolution without popular support. The only reasonable way I see going forward is to build leftist support structures now, and organize, organize, organize. I think at least the young generation is coming around on capitalism, and we must make sure they get directed to the left, and not fascist demagogues
Good, and step one is to dissolve the state, right? So what if is your problem with my post? It's objectively impossible to espouse anarchism/leftism without working toward the collapse of fascist nations like the US.
i believe i said i oppose returning the land to native groups with a completely hands-off approach because it would most likely lead to a right-wing uprising within the country, which would ultimately strip said native groups of their newly held rights anyway
You think Native groups are incapable of forestalling a right-wing takeover? Fucking yikes!
"OnLy WhItE pEoPlE uNdErStAnD tHiNgS"
Racist
after centuries of being oppressed by the ruling class? yes, sir. i do, sir.
i think anybody would be incapable of holding together a nation like the usa after that kind of treatment, sir
So that brings us back to my post. A nation that is objectively worse than Nazi Germany should collapse for the sake of the greater good.
Look i read a lot of your stuff and agree with a bunch of it and disagree with a bunch which is fine but NEVER downplay the terrors nazi Germany caused again. You don't know shit about anything if you think the US is more genocidal and racist than nazi Germany. The US is a shit country with a broken system that lets you choose between trash and a dumpster fire but holy shit was Nazi Germany bad. You seem to be from the US so maybe you don't get taught a lot about it.
Yes, the US is complicit in genocide but there's levels to it. The Germans were worse, they'd tell you to pack all your important belongings if you were a Jew or anyone else on their list of undesirables. Then they'd throw you in a train after taking all your important belongings you so neatly sorted for them so they don't have to put big effort into searching your place for riches. You'd get treated as an animal in a container and brought to a camp, split up from your family. At this point your fate almost certainly was death. You'd get put to work. Near constant work with not enough food to sustain your body so you'd slowly decrease more and more day after day until you die. You might also get your still alive body experimented on in full pain by doctors. If the camp was already too full for new arrivals (as they didn't just go after their own population but they waged war all over and put more and more people in camps) or if they just felt like it they'd put you down like an animal, be it gas chambers or other methods.
Like i get that the prison system in the US is ethnically targeted slavery and the US has and had their fingers in a lot of fucked up shit but don't ever use fucking nazi Germany for your hyperbole again.
We're set to collapse regardless, because our sitting president refuses to stop committing genocide and border fascism, so it doesn't really matter whether we like it or not, now does it? America is dying.
Personally, I think that's best. Death to America.
i feel like you're looping the conversation back to where it started, sir
naturally, i wouldn't ever accuse you of doing such a thing, because it would be a slight on your character
A slight on my character to express support for what I originally supported in my post? Are you a bot? lol
Also, I don't like being referred to as "sir"
sorry my columbo roleplay isn't very good i've only watched the youtube clips
you're going in circles without adding anything new to the discussion
If we are so fascist, then we are not set to collapse.
Ok then I guess no worries for you then. The genocidal regime you love so much will survive after all. Historically, no fascist regimes have ever fallen /s
You haven't seen liberal Democrats stating that Biden is the most progressive president we've ever had? It's a very common sentiment in liberal spaces like reddit, 4chan, and lemmy.world
Give an example in a top 5% subreddit.
I don't use reddit. Check any news or political community on lemmy.world, and you're sure to find it
The only results I get are your words plus 1 other. Please provide a link to your search results.
I don't know what to tell you. I didn't save links, and I'm not going to subject myself to the toxic news and politics communities on .world. I've seen everything of those places I need to see.
If you visit them long enough, you'll definitely see users calling Biden "the most progressive president we've had," often with lots of links that ... don't exactly support their thesis
I'd prefer gradual reform over collapse. Less shocking to our culture/economy that way I think.
Yeah well gradual reform is right-wing liberal propaganda that makes marginalized groups suffer even more for our own privilege. It doesn't work.
Just to be clear if you had a magic button that would result in guaranteed gradual reform if you pressed it. And not pressing it would result in collapse.
You would press the button, right?
I would kill the person who was forcing me to push such an absurd button. I'd celebrate the death of any nation that supported the button's existence
How do you feel about democracies? Like say it post collapse and revolution. You ended up on top. Would you create a democracy?
This may come as an absolute shock, but this is a post gleefully celebrating the idea of the downfall of a genocidal regime
If you want to discuss anarchist theory, there are much better forums for that than 196. Too many libs here.
So you don't feel safe answering my question. I won't force an answer.
I don't think this is the right place, no
There are liberals and even overt racists present in this thread
Here's some reading for you
After reading a bit. It seems like a Democratic system. I didn't get the details but assuming the people who are appointed to the councils are voted upon. And voting happens within the councils. Then I would say yeah the system is Democratic.
Anarchism could be considered the most democratic system in the world, even if we don't tend to apply that term
Conversely, since it by definition requires the absence of hierarchies, we wouldn't have a situation where we are compelled to oppress marginalized groups, no matter how popular the idea may be (I'm thinking here for example of how US liberals say our president has "no choice" but to imprison immigrants and participate in genocide just because there are enough racists that agree we should oppress these groups)
I could go on, but I'm going to shut up now before someone pops out of a well
That's fair. I think generally anarchists have good ideas. If there is a violent revolution, I would probably end up being your comrade in arms.
I don't think we would win though. Most people think anarchism is a bad word right now. I can't imagine recruiting fighters during the revolution under the banner of anarchism. Hell even progressivism isn't very popular. As always, liberals are the problem.
We may have to have a revolution but I think it needs way more time to cook.
I'd participate in revolution because I'm not so ideologically entrenched that I'd refuse participation any anti-capitalist movement, but my ideal vision would be more aligned to what the Zapatistas have tried to do
Interesting. I'm pretty ignorant about the Zapatistas. Looking over the Wikipedia and they seem all right.
I don't quite follow you. Do you mean like instead of winning the revolution. You take a chunk of the country create borders and install some kind of anarchy?
Liberals themselves have told me:
We are a "first past the post" electoral system. That alone should disillusion you of hope for any change through voting.
Biden is "the most progressive president we've ever had." This is probably sadly true, which again shows that anyone who cares about marginalized groups should hope for the collapse of such an outrageously atrocious system.
Collapse is best. We should work towards collapse.
Edit: Autocorrect sucks donkey ass
i don't think the left wing is best positioned to take power if there was a collapse
i think a collapse would bring the us significantly more right wing
It's never how it works. See, we get a century or so of dictatorships, with each new guy overthrowing the previous and promising to be better, and failing to be.
Somewhere along the line (because for some reason we won't do this in advance) intellectuals will in secret start developing some rules for a public-run government (democracy or sortition are popular), but no political leader or revolutionary leader will be actually willing to try them (because they like the power), until absolutely everyone is tired of the wars and coups because absolutely everyone has close friends and relatives they had to put into the cold ground.
And then the new Communist / Socialist / Anarchist / Whatever United States will rise, since the point is to be able to change the rules without someone shooting someone else.
Which is what happens when either the legislature, executive or courts collapse into corruption and seize power. The four boxes of liberty are a warning the first three (soapbox, ballot box, jury box) are all that keep the ammunition box closed and unused.
Yeah we're a nation of shit people overall. All the more reason collapse is best overall. I'm willing to suffer and die if it means Palestinians and immigrants can be spared
but if the right wing took power of america's arsenal i think more Palestinians and immigrants would die
Better make sure you support the lefties then if you don’t want a nazi government. Liberals have historically proven themselves to support nazis over leftists during a revolution, I hope you will do differently if you actually believe what you say.
Let's give the land back to the Native Americans then! Surely they can't do worse than our inherently corrupt, atrocious system, right?
Certainly if we are "first past the post" and our biggest hope for change and "most progressive" president is a bigoted genocidaire, we're better with them in charge, agreed?
certainly sir right you are
but, just one more thing
i don't think a group of people that the state has spent centuries stamping out are in a position to successfully hold together a country as wide-spread and diverse as the united states, so i feel like just handing it over with no other intervention is as good as a free for all, and i think that just leads to a right wing takeover
Yikes, so you oppose returning the land to Native groups for the sake of holding together a nation that is objectively more racist and genocidal than Nazi Germany. Yikes.
That's not what they're saying. They say that if you gave land back right now, you'd have massive violence against natives and likely other marginalized people by the fascists that have been building militias for years now. A revolution needs popular support, and I just don't see that at the moment.
Voting will also not change that. But neither will not voting, at least not for the better. Treat it like a chore, like you're taking out the trash. That won't clean your house, but if you don't, you're gonna live in filth before long.
Liberals think that voting is the end of politics, but that's where the actual work begins. Organize your workplace, your local community and with marginalized people. Build the support needed to tear this fucked up, cruel and callous system down. So when the collapse comes, fascism will not win. The people will.
The majority of people here are racist and will always be racist, so you're right that pandering to popular support is a dumbass idea
Are racist? Yeah probably. But I refuse to accept that they always will be. And there can't be a leftist revolution without popular support. The only reasonable way I see going forward is to build leftist support structures now, and organize, organize, organize. I think at least the young generation is coming around on capitalism, and we must make sure they get directed to the left, and not fascist demagogues
Good, and step one is to dissolve the state, right? So what if is your problem with my post? It's objectively impossible to espouse anarchism/leftism without working toward the collapse of fascist nations like the US.
sorry sir i don't believe i said that
i believe i said i oppose returning the land to native groups with a completely hands-off approach because it would most likely lead to a right-wing uprising within the country, which would ultimately strip said native groups of their newly held rights anyway
You think Native groups are incapable of forestalling a right-wing takeover? Fucking yikes!
"OnLy WhItE pEoPlE uNdErStAnD tHiNgS"
Racist
after centuries of being oppressed by the ruling class? yes, sir. i do, sir.
i think anybody would be incapable of holding together a nation like the usa after that kind of treatment, sir
So that brings us back to my post. A nation that is objectively worse than Nazi Germany should collapse for the sake of the greater good.
Look i read a lot of your stuff and agree with a bunch of it and disagree with a bunch which is fine but NEVER downplay the terrors nazi Germany caused again. You don't know shit about anything if you think the US is more genocidal and racist than nazi Germany. The US is a shit country with a broken system that lets you choose between trash and a dumpster fire but holy shit was Nazi Germany bad. You seem to be from the US so maybe you don't get taught a lot about it. Yes, the US is complicit in genocide but there's levels to it. The Germans were worse, they'd tell you to pack all your important belongings if you were a Jew or anyone else on their list of undesirables. Then they'd throw you in a train after taking all your important belongings you so neatly sorted for them so they don't have to put big effort into searching your place for riches. You'd get treated as an animal in a container and brought to a camp, split up from your family. At this point your fate almost certainly was death. You'd get put to work. Near constant work with not enough food to sustain your body so you'd slowly decrease more and more day after day until you die. You might also get your still alive body experimented on in full pain by doctors. If the camp was already too full for new arrivals (as they didn't just go after their own population but they waged war all over and put more and more people in camps) or if they just felt like it they'd put you down like an animal, be it gas chambers or other methods. Like i get that the prison system in the US is ethnically targeted slavery and the US has and had their fingers in a lot of fucked up shit but don't ever use fucking nazi Germany for your hyperbole again.
We're set to collapse regardless, because our sitting president refuses to stop committing genocide and border fascism, so it doesn't really matter whether we like it or not, now does it? America is dying.
Personally, I think that's best. Death to America.
i feel like you're looping the conversation back to where it started, sir
naturally, i wouldn't ever accuse you of doing such a thing, because it would be a slight on your character
A slight on my character to express support for what I originally supported in my post? Are you a bot? lol
Also, I don't like being referred to as "sir"
sorry my columbo roleplay isn't very good i've only watched the youtube clips
you're going in circles without adding anything new to the discussion
If we are so fascist, then we are not set to collapse.
Ok then I guess no worries for you then. The genocidal regime you love so much will survive after all. Historically, no fascist regimes have ever fallen /s
...ah. here it is.
That Biden part is a strawman
You haven't seen liberal Democrats stating that Biden is the most progressive president we've ever had? It's a very common sentiment in liberal spaces like reddit, 4chan, and lemmy.world
Give an example in a top 5% subreddit.
I don't use reddit. Check any news or political community on lemmy.world, and you're sure to find it
The only results I get are your words plus 1 other. Please provide a link to your search results.
I don't know what to tell you. I didn't save links, and I'm not going to subject myself to the toxic news and politics communities on .world. I've seen everything of those places I need to see.
If you visit them long enough, you'll definitely see users calling Biden "the most progressive president we've had," often with lots of links that ... don't exactly support their thesis
I’ve seen a lot of libs say that on lemmy.