Yikes, so you oppose returning the land to Native groups for the sake of holding together a nation that is objectively more racist and genocidal than Nazi Germany. Yikes.
That's not what they're saying. They say that if you gave land back right now, you'd have massive violence against natives and likely other marginalized people by the fascists that have been building militias for years now. A revolution needs popular support, and I just don't see that at the moment.
Voting will also not change that. But neither will not voting, at least not for the better. Treat it like a chore, like you're taking out the trash. That won't clean your house, but if you don't, you're gonna live in filth before long.
Liberals think that voting is the end of politics, but that's where the actual work begins. Organize your workplace, your local community and with marginalized people. Build the support needed to tear this fucked up, cruel and callous system down. So when the collapse comes, fascism will not win. The people will.
The majority of people here are racist and will always be racist, so you're right that pandering to popular support is a dumbass idea
Are racist? Yeah probably. But I refuse to accept that they always will be. And there can't be a leftist revolution without popular support. The only reasonable way I see going forward is to build leftist support structures now, and organize, organize, organize. I think at least the young generation is coming around on capitalism, and we must make sure they get directed to the left, and not fascist demagogues
Good, and step one is to dissolve the state, right? So what if is your problem with my post? It's objectively impossible to espouse anarchism/leftism without working toward the collapse of fascist nations like the US.
In all seriousness, what do you think would happen if the state collapsed tomorrow?
We as the left are so disorganized, there would be nothing stopping fascists filling the power vacuum. I'm an anarchist myself, but for the revolution not to fall against the counterrevolution, we need to be ready to make sure that that power vacuum stays empty. That requires strong unions, self defense forces, mutual aid networks and much more. None of which we currently have. We absolutely work towards the collapse of the state. But on our terms, and with something better ready to replace it with. The revolution won't happen on it's own, it's a long and arduous process.
I'd hope then that you along with me would find solidarity while recognizing that the collapse of the US is beneficial for the greater good.
I ask again, what do you think will happen when then US state collapses?
The way you're taking about collapse reminds me of Christians taking about the rapture, this magical event that will take us to utopia.
I don't think it would take us to utopia
"Utopia" isn't even an anarchist concept
I simply think death to America is a net positive for people overall
What do you think will happen?
The USA would cease to exist (good)
If you pressed a magical button and the US turned into an ocean connecting the Atlantic and Pacific, sure, good. But I'm assuming that's not what you're talking about, and the people will not disappear, so I ask yet again, what will happen in the area now known as the US should the state collapse right now
The downfall of a genocidal state with a history of atrocities (good)
i believe i said i oppose returning the land to native groups with a completely hands-off approach because it would most likely lead to a right-wing uprising within the country, which would ultimately strip said native groups of their newly held rights anyway
You think Native groups are incapable of forestalling a right-wing takeover? Fucking yikes!
"OnLy WhItE pEoPlE uNdErStAnD tHiNgS"
Racist
after centuries of being oppressed by the ruling class? yes, sir. i do, sir.
i think anybody would be incapable of holding together a nation like the usa after that kind of treatment, sir
So that brings us back to my post. A nation that is objectively worse than Nazi Germany should collapse for the sake of the greater good.
but that would lead to a nation closer to nazi germany than where it sits currently, which i feel like everybody would agree is a bad thing
This is an absurd assumption. We are currently WORSE than Nazi Germany, yet you posit the fear that we will become CLOSER.
We are currently WORSE than Nazi Germany
an insane proposition
you wouldn't be able to type that, were you actually in nazi germany, without fear of retribution
We have committed more genocide and are currently more fascistic than Nazi Germany.
But it's good to know you don't consider Palestinians, Latinx immigrants, Sudanese residents, or the many, many demographics we exploit for our economic well-being to be worth your consideration. I'll categorically disregard anything you say from now on. My bad.
We have committed more genocide
by what metric?
total number of genocides participated in, maybe..?
but the state isn't building death camps, and if you compare the death toll in Palestine to those in Nazi Germany it's a stark difference
exploiting workers to death for economic benefit is very objectionably inexcusable, but by definition not genocide, and by attempting to reposition it as such you're lessening the definition of genocide rather than helping the plight of those abused by capitalism
yes, i think allowing the machine of capitalism to churn through lives incidentally is at least marginally better than building a machine specifically designed to churn through as many lives as possible in as short a window as possible
very obviously neither should be happening at all, and the fact either is is frankly disgusting, but you were the one who decided to directly compare them
and are currently more fascistic than Nazi Germany.
again, the fact you're able to type this is proof that it's false
I don't argue with genocide deniers
literally no part of my reply was denying genocide that the us has participated in
OK so what is your problem with returning the land and power to indigenous groups? You surely don't support the United States of America with its history of genocide, slavery, imperialism, and colonialism? Surely you would celebrate the downfall of a state worse than that of Nazi Germany whose most progressive leader (by its own adminission) is a genocide-supporter and border fascist.
fascist.
Surely the Indigenous groups wouldn't be worse than the blue or red ghouls?
And you are denying the genocide that'll happen to those indigenous you propose are going to somehow take over the country.
The military. There is at least one greedy general out there that'll attack with our trillions worth of weapons research.
The nature of the indigenous communities. Okay, so you're giving them to "the Native Americans". I'm assuming that means all of them? Look at this infograph. They occupy less than 10% of USA's land and are spread out incredibly sparsely. If you just give it to one of them, well, that actually would solve a problem. But which one will you give it to? Is the Fox nation racially superior to the Sioux nation? If you give it to all them, they will have to effectively communicate, which is undercut by
The nature of the indigenous communities. Quite a bit of these communities have been recognized by the government as wards of the state and have been isolated by mutual consent. Now you're gonna entrust someone to hand them modern communications, weapons, tools, etc and not use these technologies to take power away from the indigenous instead. How exactly do you propose a power transfer to happen?
I'm not reading all that
I'm happy for you tho
Or sorry that happened
Native Americans
Latinx immigrants
Palestinians
Sudanese
Jewish people
Working class people
Asian people
Many Central and South American groups
You are being ignorant by asking "by what metric" for a nation founded on genocide
Jewish people
you're comparing the us's genocide to nazi germany and jewish people were the ones you chose to bring up?
Are you and your neighbors being dragged into vans in broad daylight to be forced to participate in a pogrom?
Things are bad, I won't discredit that. Bad things are being done, I won't discredit that either. But this sensationalism without basis in historical context is what makes progressives look like lunatics. Language matters, how you address things matters. Just throwing around terms devalues them, and their meaning, and the history behind them.
These are geo-political issues of our times, but there have always been issues and disagreements between the governing body and the populace. Take the Spanish Civil War and the support/dissent that occurred in the US. Don't just throw terms like Nazi around casually and say "Nazi this, Nazi that." There are definitely American Nazis today, and those pieces of shit aren't hiding very much anymore, but Nazi Germany we are not... Yet.
As to the point of the previous commenter, you are able to say this in the open with no fears of reprisal. You couldn't do that in, let's say, modern China or North Korea or Russia. I would argue that these nation states are more aligned with the overt/brutal fascism/Nazi-ism directed at their own populace and their communities abroad that you say America is currently.
You assume I value my life and well-being over that of a Palestinian, immigrant, or Native American. I don't. I'm not that bad a person
Have you sold all your worldly possessions to donate to their causes? If you value your own life and comfort so little, why aren't you over there as an aid worker/missionary? Do you volunteer in native areas? How are you serving these communities by spouting bullshit and arguing with people online?
All I'm seeing right now is a whole bunch of virtue signaling, which isn't even good enough to wipe my ass with. Get out there and serve the greater good instead of being petty on the internet, or shut the fuck up.
Look i read a lot of your stuff and agree with a bunch of it and disagree with a bunch which is fine but NEVER downplay the terrors nazi Germany caused again. You don't know shit about anything if you think the US is more genocidal and racist than nazi Germany. The US is a shit country with a broken system that lets you choose between trash and a dumpster fire but holy shit was Nazi Germany bad. You seem to be from the US so maybe you don't get taught a lot about it.
Yes, the US is complicit in genocide but there's levels to it. The Germans were worse, they'd tell you to pack all your important belongings if you were a Jew or anyone else on their list of undesirables. Then they'd throw you in a train after taking all your important belongings you so neatly sorted for them so they don't have to put big effort into searching your place for riches. You'd get treated as an animal in a container and brought to a camp, split up from your family. At this point your fate almost certainly was death. You'd get put to work. Near constant work with not enough food to sustain your body so you'd slowly decrease more and more day after day until you die. You might also get your still alive body experimented on in full pain by doctors. If the camp was already too full for new arrivals (as they didn't just go after their own population but they waged war all over and put more and more people in camps) or if they just felt like it they'd put you down like an animal, be it gas chambers or other methods.
Like i get that the prison system in the US is ethnically targeted slavery and the US has and had their fingers in a lot of fucked up shit but don't ever use fucking nazi Germany for your hyperbole again.
We're set to collapse regardless, because our sitting president refuses to stop committing genocide and border fascism, so it doesn't really matter whether we like it or not, now does it? America is dying.
Personally, I think that's best. Death to America.
i feel like you're looping the conversation back to where it started, sir
naturally, i wouldn't ever accuse you of doing such a thing, because it would be a slight on your character
A slight on my character to express support for what I originally supported in my post? Are you a bot? lol
Also, I don't like being referred to as "sir"
sorry my columbo roleplay isn't very good i've only watched the youtube clips
you're going in circles without adding anything new to the discussion
Why would you be cosplaying Columbo? Because of my pfp? That's absurd. Surely Columbo would use logic instead of anti-indigenous capitalist propaganda.
yes because of your pfp, why else? who doesn't love columbo?
i'm not using anti-indigenous capitalist propaganda
attempting to reframe anything that's been said so far as such is clearly arguing in bad faith, and frankly, really weird
Why is it weird? Explain objectively, without appealing to the norms of the US system.
because acknowledging that the native american population has been beaten down by the state repeatedly and for centuries isn't anti-indigenous? because acknowledging that the native american population is a victim of systemic and at times systematic racism isn't anti-indigenous?
unless you would deny that they've been beaten down by the state repeatedly and for centuries?
Yes, they have. And therefore should be re-empowered ASAP. It is YOU who appears to be arguing that they are not up to the task, not me.
i'm saying they're not up to the task without significant support from some hypothetical party backing them up
i don't know what party you'd put in that position if not the current government, and at that point it seems like we're back to the start, no?
So you're saying they're not up to the task unless some [white majority party] supports them?
So again I say, YIKES
super weird that the abused aren't in a position of power, and that the abusers are
yeah, the party in power is majority white, and yeah that's because of historic racism, but that doesn't change the scenario that we're both looking at
If we are so fascist, then we are not set to collapse.
Ok then I guess no worries for you then. The genocidal regime you love so much will survive after all. Historically, no fascist regimes have ever fallen /s
Yikes, so you oppose returning the land to Native groups for the sake of holding together a nation that is objectively more racist and genocidal than Nazi Germany. Yikes.
That's not what they're saying. They say that if you gave land back right now, you'd have massive violence against natives and likely other marginalized people by the fascists that have been building militias for years now. A revolution needs popular support, and I just don't see that at the moment.
Voting will also not change that. But neither will not voting, at least not for the better. Treat it like a chore, like you're taking out the trash. That won't clean your house, but if you don't, you're gonna live in filth before long.
Liberals think that voting is the end of politics, but that's where the actual work begins. Organize your workplace, your local community and with marginalized people. Build the support needed to tear this fucked up, cruel and callous system down. So when the collapse comes, fascism will not win. The people will.
The majority of people here are racist and will always be racist, so you're right that pandering to popular support is a dumbass idea
Are racist? Yeah probably. But I refuse to accept that they always will be. And there can't be a leftist revolution without popular support. The only reasonable way I see going forward is to build leftist support structures now, and organize, organize, organize. I think at least the young generation is coming around on capitalism, and we must make sure they get directed to the left, and not fascist demagogues
Good, and step one is to dissolve the state, right? So what if is your problem with my post? It's objectively impossible to espouse anarchism/leftism without working toward the collapse of fascist nations like the US.
In all seriousness, what do you think would happen if the state collapsed tomorrow?
We as the left are so disorganized, there would be nothing stopping fascists filling the power vacuum. I'm an anarchist myself, but for the revolution not to fall against the counterrevolution, we need to be ready to make sure that that power vacuum stays empty. That requires strong unions, self defense forces, mutual aid networks and much more. None of which we currently have. We absolutely work towards the collapse of the state. But on our terms, and with something better ready to replace it with. The revolution won't happen on it's own, it's a long and arduous process.
I'd hope then that you along with me would find solidarity while recognizing that the collapse of the US is beneficial for the greater good.
I ask again, what do you think will happen when then US state collapses?
The way you're taking about collapse reminds me of Christians taking about the rapture, this magical event that will take us to utopia.
I don't think it would take us to utopia
"Utopia" isn't even an anarchist concept
I simply think death to America is a net positive for people overall
What do you think will happen?
The USA would cease to exist (good)
If you pressed a magical button and the US turned into an ocean connecting the Atlantic and Pacific, sure, good. But I'm assuming that's not what you're talking about, and the people will not disappear, so I ask yet again, what will happen in the area now known as the US should the state collapse right now
The downfall of a genocidal state with a history of atrocities (good)
sorry sir i don't believe i said that
i believe i said i oppose returning the land to native groups with a completely hands-off approach because it would most likely lead to a right-wing uprising within the country, which would ultimately strip said native groups of their newly held rights anyway
You think Native groups are incapable of forestalling a right-wing takeover? Fucking yikes!
"OnLy WhItE pEoPlE uNdErStAnD tHiNgS"
Racist
after centuries of being oppressed by the ruling class? yes, sir. i do, sir.
i think anybody would be incapable of holding together a nation like the usa after that kind of treatment, sir
So that brings us back to my post. A nation that is objectively worse than Nazi Germany should collapse for the sake of the greater good.
but that would lead to a nation closer to nazi germany than where it sits currently, which i feel like everybody would agree is a bad thing
This is an absurd assumption. We are currently WORSE than Nazi Germany, yet you posit the fear that we will become CLOSER.
an insane proposition
you wouldn't be able to type that, were you actually in nazi germany, without fear of retribution
We have committed more genocide and are currently more fascistic than Nazi Germany.
But it's good to know you don't consider Palestinians, Latinx immigrants, Sudanese residents, or the many, many demographics we exploit for our economic well-being to be worth your consideration. I'll categorically disregard anything you say from now on. My bad.
by what metric?
total number of genocides participated in, maybe..?
but the state isn't building death camps, and if you compare the death toll in Palestine to those in Nazi Germany it's a stark difference
exploiting workers to death for economic benefit is very objectionably inexcusable, but by definition not genocide, and by attempting to reposition it as such you're lessening the definition of genocide rather than helping the plight of those abused by capitalism
yes, i think allowing the machine of capitalism to churn through lives incidentally is at least marginally better than building a machine specifically designed to churn through as many lives as possible in as short a window as possible
very obviously neither should be happening at all, and the fact either is is frankly disgusting, but you were the one who decided to directly compare them
again, the fact you're able to type this is proof that it's false
I don't argue with genocide deniers
literally no part of my reply was denying genocide that the us has participated in
OK so what is your problem with returning the land and power to indigenous groups? You surely don't support the United States of America with its history of genocide, slavery, imperialism, and colonialism? Surely you would celebrate the downfall of a state worse than that of Nazi Germany whose most progressive leader (by its own adminission) is a genocide-supporter and border fascist. fascist.
Surely the Indigenous groups wouldn't be worse than the blue or red ghouls?
And you are denying the genocide that'll happen to those indigenous you propose are going to somehow take over the country.
I'm not reading all that
I'm happy for you tho
Or sorry that happened
Native Americans
Latinx immigrants
Palestinians
Sudanese
Jewish people
Working class people
Asian people
Many Central and South American groups
You are being ignorant by asking "by what metric" for a nation founded on genocide
you're comparing the us's genocide to nazi germany and jewish people were the ones you chose to bring up?
Are you and your neighbors being dragged into vans in broad daylight to be forced to participate in a pogrom?
Things are bad, I won't discredit that. Bad things are being done, I won't discredit that either. But this sensationalism without basis in historical context is what makes progressives look like lunatics. Language matters, how you address things matters. Just throwing around terms devalues them, and their meaning, and the history behind them.
These are geo-political issues of our times, but there have always been issues and disagreements between the governing body and the populace. Take the Spanish Civil War and the support/dissent that occurred in the US. Don't just throw terms like Nazi around casually and say "Nazi this, Nazi that." There are definitely American Nazis today, and those pieces of shit aren't hiding very much anymore, but Nazi Germany we are not... Yet.
As to the point of the previous commenter, you are able to say this in the open with no fears of reprisal. You couldn't do that in, let's say, modern China or North Korea or Russia. I would argue that these nation states are more aligned with the overt/brutal fascism/Nazi-ism directed at their own populace and their communities abroad that you say America is currently.
You assume I value my life and well-being over that of a Palestinian, immigrant, or Native American. I don't. I'm not that bad a person
Have you sold all your worldly possessions to donate to their causes? If you value your own life and comfort so little, why aren't you over there as an aid worker/missionary? Do you volunteer in native areas? How are you serving these communities by spouting bullshit and arguing with people online?
All I'm seeing right now is a whole bunch of virtue signaling, which isn't even good enough to wipe my ass with. Get out there and serve the greater good instead of being petty on the internet, or shut the fuck up.
What do you think is the most likely outcome of the fall of the US?
The end to its reign of genocide, imperialism, and colonialism since 1776
And then what?
Death to America
Have fun with your circular reasoning and bad-faith arguments. I'm gonna go eat a burrito
Did you eat it sideways or the proper way?
Well my mouth looks like squidward so sideways
Opposing genocide and fascism is "circular reasoning," yes
It's definitely not circular reasoning to tell us to vote for a genocidal maniac in order to stop genocide /s
Look i read a lot of your stuff and agree with a bunch of it and disagree with a bunch which is fine but NEVER downplay the terrors nazi Germany caused again. You don't know shit about anything if you think the US is more genocidal and racist than nazi Germany. The US is a shit country with a broken system that lets you choose between trash and a dumpster fire but holy shit was Nazi Germany bad. You seem to be from the US so maybe you don't get taught a lot about it. Yes, the US is complicit in genocide but there's levels to it. The Germans were worse, they'd tell you to pack all your important belongings if you were a Jew or anyone else on their list of undesirables. Then they'd throw you in a train after taking all your important belongings you so neatly sorted for them so they don't have to put big effort into searching your place for riches. You'd get treated as an animal in a container and brought to a camp, split up from your family. At this point your fate almost certainly was death. You'd get put to work. Near constant work with not enough food to sustain your body so you'd slowly decrease more and more day after day until you die. You might also get your still alive body experimented on in full pain by doctors. If the camp was already too full for new arrivals (as they didn't just go after their own population but they waged war all over and put more and more people in camps) or if they just felt like it they'd put you down like an animal, be it gas chambers or other methods. Like i get that the prison system in the US is ethnically targeted slavery and the US has and had their fingers in a lot of fucked up shit but don't ever use fucking nazi Germany for your hyperbole again.
We're set to collapse regardless, because our sitting president refuses to stop committing genocide and border fascism, so it doesn't really matter whether we like it or not, now does it? America is dying.
Personally, I think that's best. Death to America.
i feel like you're looping the conversation back to where it started, sir
naturally, i wouldn't ever accuse you of doing such a thing, because it would be a slight on your character
A slight on my character to express support for what I originally supported in my post? Are you a bot? lol
Also, I don't like being referred to as "sir"
sorry my columbo roleplay isn't very good i've only watched the youtube clips
you're going in circles without adding anything new to the discussion
Why would you be cosplaying Columbo? Because of my pfp? That's absurd. Surely Columbo would use logic instead of anti-indigenous capitalist propaganda.
yes because of your pfp, why else? who doesn't love columbo?
i'm not using anti-indigenous capitalist propaganda
attempting to reframe anything that's been said so far as such is clearly arguing in bad faith, and frankly, really weird
Why is it weird? Explain objectively, without appealing to the norms of the US system.
because acknowledging that the native american population has been beaten down by the state repeatedly and for centuries isn't anti-indigenous? because acknowledging that the native american population is a victim of systemic and at times systematic racism isn't anti-indigenous?
unless you would deny that they've been beaten down by the state repeatedly and for centuries?
Yes, they have. And therefore should be re-empowered ASAP. It is YOU who appears to be arguing that they are not up to the task, not me.
i'm saying they're not up to the task without significant support from some hypothetical party backing them up
i don't know what party you'd put in that position if not the current government, and at that point it seems like we're back to the start, no?
So you're saying they're not up to the task unless some [white majority party] supports them?
So again I say, YIKES
super weird that the abused aren't in a position of power, and that the abusers are
yeah, the party in power is majority white, and yeah that's because of historic racism, but that doesn't change the scenario that we're both looking at
If we are so fascist, then we are not set to collapse.
Ok then I guess no worries for you then. The genocidal regime you love so much will survive after all. Historically, no fascist regimes have ever fallen /s