A well regulated watch is a watch in proper working order. 'Well regulated' does not mean 'to pass regulations' in this context.
Example sentences from online:
"regulate one's habits"
"regulate the pressure of a tire"
Now do militia.
Any way you cut it, the point was to have an armed citizenry capable of defending the country, and the 2nd was plainly defined in that context, so it makes perfect sense that the minimum requirement for bearing arms is being able to do so effectively: so where's the training? Where's the free gun after you prove yourself capable enough to be part of the national defense?
As it turns out, we have all that, it's called the U.S. Military, an all volunteer force for the defence of the nation. (They don't let you keep your gun anymore).
Want to do it part time, on an on-call basis? National Guard.
Id love it if we moved to the swiss model of mandatory training for everyone when they're old enough, issuing them a firearm, and telling them to stay trained just in case, that would be awesome. Instead we have "buy it at Walmart, figure it out", and zero part of that is run well.
so where’s the training
For civilians? Hunter safety, otherwise you're paying for a private tutor.
I'm all down for more training, so long as it's free. We should not gatekeep civil liberties behind fees.
Would you be okay with people having to pay $200 for a training class on how to vote before you were allowed to vote? Of course not. The same is true for the right to own a firearm.
Funny because you do have to pay for documents like a birth certificate and ID in order to vote in some places. When I got my ID renewed years ago my original birth certificate from the '80s was somehow no longer valid so I had to buy a new one for $60 from some government records company.
Both the Federalist papers, the militia acts, and current government code confirm that everyone not part of the standing military or national guard as the militia. The militia doesn't get free guns, they were expected to bring their own privately owned guns and ammunition when called upon. I would not mind free guns though.
Training should be part of the public education system, but gun/hunters safety and shooting sports have been removed because it's not kosher to expose kids/teens to guns. Due to the prevalence of guns in the US it just makes sense, because treating guns like abstinence only sex ed will have the same shitty results.
The "buy it at Walmart and figure it out" is because you can't lock rights behind hoops to jump through, so adopting a Swiss model and making fun education/training part of compulsory education is definitely a good minimum.
Almost removed. I was shocked to learn that the dude who just winged trump was not accepted to his school's fucking rifle team for being a shit shot. I'll repeat that because someone reading this may be old and remember it like I do, and as shocked as I was that that means his school had anactiverifle team in like 2022. What the dick?! In my area those ended at columbine and I lived in The goddamn South. That was actually the wildest part of the whole thing to me!
Still though I agree with you entirely, I just thought that was wild lol.
Then maybe we should make sure it's in proper working order. Because selling an 18 year old a handgun at Walmart with no training ain't that.
You must not be American. There are literally no Walmarts that sell handguns, and if they did, it wouldn't be legal to sell them to 18 year olds.
But they will sell you a long rifle at 16.
No they won't, they'll sell it to your parents who can legally transfer it to you. No 16yo is passing a NICs check.
There are Indeed Walmarts that sell handguns (Alaska). And while there are no Walmarts that will sell a handgun to an 18yo, there are legal ways for an 18yo to both purchase and possess a handgun.
As of when? Jw, all Walmart locations at least in the continental US ceased sales of handguns, "assault rifles," and the rounds for them (excepting when they are also commonly a rifle rnd, .22lr to be exact), they no longer stock 9mm, .45, .357, 5.56 (still have .223 though lol), etc, after Parkland specifically.
And yes I miss my cheap and accessible ammo.
I specifically said Alaska.
Which is why I specified that my information pertains to the entire continental US at least, as the statement they made after Parkland said all stores. And again I ask, when is the last time you verified that they still had them? Did you see them 10yr ago or did you double check on Tuesday? Do you possibly have outdated info? Can you possibly read what I said instead of just dismissing my question?
In the post I responded to, they said there were "literally no Walmarts." They didn't say anything about the continental US. You only said anything about continental when you responded to my clarification, which is why I reminded you that I specifically said Alaska. Additionally, Alaska is part of the "continental" US. Perhaps you meant contiguous?
Walmart began a "no firearms" policy in 2019 after Parkland; shortly thereafter they quickly, quietly, but unevenly reversed those policies in 2020 due to "unrest" around the election--but not in all states.
Firearm policy at Walmart depends somewhat on the state you're in. Their firearms policy is no longer nationally consistent, though generally your description is accurate for the majority of Walmarts but, again, not all of them.
Nevertheless, as recently as a year ago, handguns were available in Walmart in Anchorage, because my friend and I each bought one when we were visiting friends and going bush hiking/camping and picking up supplies.
I didn't dismiss your question, I responded to your statement. The post I replied to wasn't a question. You only posed questions when you responded to my comment. Regardless, relax.
I agree. Schools need to teach kids practical skills. Firearms handling and use among them. Other good ones would be how to file taxes, how credit cards/loans work, how to repair basic items around the house, how to cook basic meals, etc. It doesn't need to dominate schooling, a class or two covering the above in highschool would be plenty. Most of those topics are pretty short, but very important for life.
a militia in the constitution was similar to firefighters - you were expected to come help people and the failure to do so could result in losing your 2nd amendment rights.
The idea that a militia = a consumer is a modern rewrite.
Good thing we aren't watches and there's a definition that fits better.
You don't want to play the game of "we can apply modern definitions" to the Constitution.
Hopefully this elucidates why that's a bad idea:
Art 4 sect 4
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government,
It's not modern. Or at least 1792 English was a lot more modern than the gun lobby wants people to think. It absolutely included rules and regulations.
Also, which state isn't a republic? Point it out. Or are you trying to threaten us with twisting language even further to benefit a political party?
It is decidedly not the one used in that context given the history of America under the articles of confederation and the revolution.
I don't know who "us" is but I decidedly not threatening anyone. My point was that taking law to mean anything but what it meant is lunacy and will simply lead to people misreading it to achieve political goals defying the legislative process. Changes in law should be done via the legislature.
You can deny it all you want. The Etymology is clear. If they wanted to write it as "healthy" or "well oiled" they would have. Instead they used the word that meant to control by rules since the Roman Empire.
They also could have written "limited" but they didn't. The people at the time widely understood it to refer to a militia attended to, to ensure it efficacious. The regulations they had at the time were there to ensure they were well trained and armed. See the militia acts of 1792 & 1795 or for example or any of the other many acts from the period like 1786 N.H. Laws 409-10, An Act for Forming and Regulating the Militia within this State,. Which provided:
[E]very non-commissioned officer and soldier, both in the alarm list and training band, shall be provided, and have constantly in readiness, a good musket, and a bayonet fitted thereto, with a good scabbard and belt, a worm, priming-wire and brush, a cartridge-box that will hold at least twenty-four rounds, six flints, and a pound of powder, forty leaden balls fitted to his gun, a knap sack, a blanket, and a canteen that will hold one quart.
When they wanted their militias well regulated they meant this.
So you have polling from 1792 to cite? For the word being widely understood to mean something other than what it actually means?
If you go to the hyperlink above you can search for how regulating militia was used across the states during the founding period. They universally share the same efficacious meaning.
I'm going to trust the etymologists on this one. It's literally their field of study. You don't go to a mathematician for chemistry, and you don't go to a lawyer for history.
ETA- I had an extra moment so I took it for a spin and found this. I'm sure they're just talking about how freely you can transport explosives...
Entymologist notable studiers of the field of law not lawyers. You do go to lawyers for historical case law because that is the exact thing they've studied for their doctorate.
And that isn't analogous to militia regulation but rather cargo transportation restrictions similar to fire safety laws. Again betraying, that legal knowledge is actually helpful in understanding law. Rather than say a bastardized perversion of etymology used to confirm preexisting notions.
I'm sure they're just talking about how freely you can transport explosives...
But for your sarcasm this would have been your most salient thought in the thread.
Oh, I'm sorry. It only means your special meaning in the one special place you want to reference it?
No. It's fucking debunked. It was understood to mean regulations in the exact same way we mean it today. In law and in common usage.
Read more write less.
That novel theory fails on so many merits. Such as why would they have felt a need to specify that aspects at the time? Under the proper interpretation it make perfect sense as some states had failed to maintain an effective militia. As another commentor pointed out, the original interpretation of the word survives today:
On matters of law that view had been invalidated before its inception. In the words of early justice Joseph Story:
The importance of this article will scarcely be doubted by any persons, who have duly reflected upon the subject. The militia is the natural defence of a free country against sudden foreign invasions, domestic insurrections, and domestic usurpations of power by rulers. It is against sound policy for a free people to keep up large military establishments and standing armies in time of peace, both from the enormous expenses, with which they are attended, and the facile means, which they afford to ambitious and unprincipled rulers, to subvert the government, or trample upon the rights of the people. The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them. And yet, though this truth would seem so clear, and the importance of a well regulated militia would seem so undeniable, it cannot be disguised, that among the American people there is a growing indifference to any system of militia discipline, and a strong disposition, from a sense of its burthens, to be rid of all regulations. How it is practicable to keep the people duly armed without some organization, it is difficult to see. There is certainly no small danger, that indifference may lead to disgust, and disgust to contempt; and thus gradually undermine all the protection intended by this clause of our national bill of rights.
A well regulated watch is a watch in proper working order. 'Well regulated' does not mean 'to pass regulations' in this context.
Example sentences from online:
"regulate one's habits"
"regulate the pressure of a tire"
Now do militia.
Any way you cut it, the point was to have an armed citizenry capable of defending the country, and the 2nd was plainly defined in that context, so it makes perfect sense that the minimum requirement for bearing arms is being able to do so effectively: so where's the training? Where's the free gun after you prove yourself capable enough to be part of the national defense?
As it turns out, we have all that, it's called the U.S. Military, an all volunteer force for the defence of the nation. (They don't let you keep your gun anymore).
Want to do it part time, on an on-call basis? National Guard.
Id love it if we moved to the swiss model of mandatory training for everyone when they're old enough, issuing them a firearm, and telling them to stay trained just in case, that would be awesome. Instead we have "buy it at Walmart, figure it out", and zero part of that is run well.
For civilians? Hunter safety, otherwise you're paying for a private tutor.
I'm all down for more training, so long as it's free. We should not gatekeep civil liberties behind fees.
Would you be okay with people having to pay $200 for a training class on how to vote before you were allowed to vote? Of course not. The same is true for the right to own a firearm.
Funny because you do have to pay for documents like a birth certificate and ID in order to vote in some places. When I got my ID renewed years ago my original birth certificate from the '80s was somehow no longer valid so I had to buy a new one for $60 from some government records company.
Both the Federalist papers, the militia acts, and current government code confirm that everyone not part of the standing military or national guard as the militia. The militia doesn't get free guns, they were expected to bring their own privately owned guns and ammunition when called upon. I would not mind free guns though.
Training should be part of the public education system, but gun/hunters safety and shooting sports have been removed because it's not kosher to expose kids/teens to guns. Due to the prevalence of guns in the US it just makes sense, because treating guns like abstinence only sex ed will have the same shitty results.
The "buy it at Walmart and figure it out" is because you can't lock rights behind hoops to jump through, so adopting a Swiss model and making fun education/training part of compulsory education is definitely a good minimum.
Almost removed. I was shocked to learn that the dude who just winged trump was not accepted to his school's fucking rifle team for being a shit shot. I'll repeat that because someone reading this may be old and remember it like I do, and as shocked as I was that that means his school had an active rifle team in like 2022. What the dick?! In my area those ended at columbine and I lived in The goddamn South. That was actually the wildest part of the whole thing to me!
Still though I agree with you entirely, I just thought that was wild lol.
Then maybe we should make sure it's in proper working order. Because selling an 18 year old a handgun at Walmart with no training ain't that.
You must not be American. There are literally no Walmarts that sell handguns, and if they did, it wouldn't be legal to sell them to 18 year olds.
But they will sell you a long rifle at 16.
No they won't, they'll sell it to your parents who can legally transfer it to you. No 16yo is passing a NICs check.
There are Indeed Walmarts that sell handguns (Alaska). And while there are no Walmarts that will sell a handgun to an 18yo, there are legal ways for an 18yo to both purchase and possess a handgun.
As of when? Jw, all Walmart locations at least in the continental US ceased sales of handguns, "assault rifles," and the rounds for them (excepting when they are also commonly a rifle rnd, .22lr to be exact), they no longer stock 9mm, .45, .357, 5.56 (still have .223 though lol), etc, after Parkland specifically.
And yes I miss my cheap and accessible ammo.
I specifically said Alaska.
Which is why I specified that my information pertains to the entire continental US at least, as the statement they made after Parkland said all stores. And again I ask, when is the last time you verified that they still had them? Did you see them 10yr ago or did you double check on Tuesday? Do you possibly have outdated info? Can you possibly read what I said instead of just dismissing my question?
In the post I responded to, they said there were "literally no Walmarts." They didn't say anything about the continental US. You only said anything about continental when you responded to my clarification, which is why I reminded you that I specifically said Alaska. Additionally, Alaska is part of the "continental" US. Perhaps you meant contiguous?
Walmart began a "no firearms" policy in 2019 after Parkland; shortly thereafter they quickly, quietly, but unevenly reversed those policies in 2020 due to "unrest" around the election--but not in all states.
Firearm policy at Walmart depends somewhat on the state you're in. Their firearms policy is no longer nationally consistent, though generally your description is accurate for the majority of Walmarts but, again, not all of them.
Nevertheless, as recently as a year ago, handguns were available in Walmart in Anchorage, because my friend and I each bought one when we were visiting friends and going bush hiking/camping and picking up supplies.
I didn't dismiss your question, I responded to your statement. The post I replied to wasn't a question. You only posed questions when you responded to my comment. Regardless, relax.
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/12070582
Yes the fuck I did, reread it.
But also yes I meant contiguous lol.
K
I agree. Schools need to teach kids practical skills. Firearms handling and use among them. Other good ones would be how to file taxes, how credit cards/loans work, how to repair basic items around the house, how to cook basic meals, etc. It doesn't need to dominate schooling, a class or two covering the above in highschool would be plenty. Most of those topics are pretty short, but very important for life.
a militia in the constitution was similar to firefighters - you were expected to come help people and the failure to do so could result in losing your 2nd amendment rights.
The idea that a militia = a consumer is a modern rewrite.
Good thing we aren't watches and there's a definition that fits better.
You don't want to play the game of "we can apply modern definitions" to the Constitution.
Hopefully this elucidates why that's a bad idea:
Art 4 sect 4
It's not modern. Or at least 1792 English was a lot more modern than the gun lobby wants people to think. It absolutely included rules and regulations.
Also, which state isn't a republic? Point it out. Or are you trying to threaten us with twisting language even further to benefit a political party?
It is decidedly not the one used in that context given the history of America under the articles of confederation and the revolution.
I don't know who "us" is but I decidedly not threatening anyone. My point was that taking law to mean anything but what it meant is lunacy and will simply lead to people misreading it to achieve political goals defying the legislative process. Changes in law should be done via the legislature.
You can deny it all you want. The Etymology is clear. If they wanted to write it as "healthy" or "well oiled" they would have. Instead they used the word that meant to control by rules since the Roman Empire.
They also could have written "limited" but they didn't. The people at the time widely understood it to refer to a militia attended to, to ensure it efficacious. The regulations they had at the time were there to ensure they were well trained and armed. See the militia acts of 1792 & 1795 or for example or any of the other many acts from the period like 1786 N.H. Laws 409-10, An Act for Forming and Regulating the Militia within this State,. Which provided:
When they wanted their militias well regulated they meant this.
So you have polling from 1792 to cite? For the word being widely understood to mean something other than what it actually means?
If you go to the hyperlink above you can search for how regulating militia was used across the states during the founding period. They universally share the same efficacious meaning.
I'm going to trust the etymologists on this one. It's literally their field of study. You don't go to a mathematician for chemistry, and you don't go to a lawyer for history.
ETA- I had an extra moment so I took it for a spin and found this. I'm sure they're just talking about how freely you can transport explosives...
Entymologist notable studiers of the field of law not lawyers. You do go to lawyers for historical case law because that is the exact thing they've studied for their doctorate.
And that isn't analogous to militia regulation but rather cargo transportation restrictions similar to fire safety laws. Again betraying, that legal knowledge is actually helpful in understanding law. Rather than say a bastardized perversion of etymology used to confirm preexisting notions.
But for your sarcasm this would have been your most salient thought in the thread.
Oh, I'm sorry. It only means your special meaning in the one special place you want to reference it?
No. It's fucking debunked. It was understood to mean regulations in the exact same way we mean it today. In law and in common usage.
Read more write less.
That novel theory fails on so many merits. Such as why would they have felt a need to specify that aspects at the time? Under the proper interpretation it make perfect sense as some states had failed to maintain an effective militia. As another commentor pointed out, the original interpretation of the word survives today:
On matters of law that view had been invalidated before its inception. In the words of early justice Joseph Story: