Don’t Fall for the Third-Party Trick
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"Progressives should not make the same mistake that Ernst Thälmann made in 1932. The leader of the German Communist Party, Thälmann saw mainstream liberals as his enemies, and so the center and left never joined forces against the Nazis. Thälmann famously said that 'some Nazi trees must not be allowed to overshadow a forest' of social democrats, whom he sneeringly called 'social fascists.'
After Adolf Hitler gained power in 1933, Thälmann was arrested. He was shot on Hitler’s orders in Buchenwald concentration camp in 1944."
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Karl Marx 1850
I agree entirely, in regards to politics in 1850's Germany with its diverse multiparty political ecosystem.
As for current American politics, where we are deeply entrenched in a societal tug-of-war in an ostensible two-party system, where third parties can swing policy in a largely undemocratic direction by spoiling the vote in close elections, I disagree completely. Third parties serve no purpose in a two-party representative democracy.
If we can break the two party political duopoly, then I will never complain about another fringe party voter ever again. Until then, you better fucking vote for the lesser evil, because letting the greater evil win, as we learned in 2017-2020, is really fucking bad.
If anything, letting Democrats win the next few major elections could spell doom for the Republican party as a whole, and give us a chance to introduce some actual competition to the Democratic party.
I wish that I could snap my fingers and have it fixed today, but that's not how societies work. Accelerationism always requires violence, and violence isn't how you should uphold democracy, unless you are defending its pillars against a direct threat. A two-party duopoly is something we the people need to defeat.
That means we need to abolish the electoral college, introduce universal mail-in voting, defeat all right-wing disenfranchisement efforts, and introduce ranked-choice voting to all elections. These are radical changes that will take a lot of work to accomplish, and that will face a lot of opposition.
Under Democrat leadership, these things are possible. Under Republican leadership, we'll be lucky if we still have elections.
Your solution to defeating the duopoly is continuing giving them power and participating in it?
Would you like your vote to matter after November?
Then yes, I'm pushing the duopoly this time around.
So if they can't vote for their views now, and we keep pushing the duopoly, when do we get democracy?
That’s the neat part… you don’t.
When you start doing things that actually work.
Look up the Moral Majority and Jerry Falwell. They would show up at every local GOP organizing event with enough voters to make sure their candidates for jobs like mayor, sheriff, and county clerk got the nod.
Gotcha, I'll keep organizing outside the useless electoral system.
That's a neat way to say "being too lazy to actually make a difference, but I don't want to feel bad about it".
What laws have you gotten passed?
Why would passing laws be my concern? The answer is 0.
Cryophilia said it better than I could, so I'll repeat their comment.
I'll just add that if you aren't interested in passing laws you should vote for Harris if only to annoy the Right.
I don't believe the way forward is by passing laws in a system that cannot be reformed into a good one, so it doesn't make sense to judge my praxis by passing laws within said system.
I think this right here illustrates your political views perfectly, "owning the chuds" is more important than actually working towards progress.
Name one piece of actual progress you've made. One would be nice.
You probably love to rail at Obamacare and point out that it was originally created by Mitt Romney.
Maybe the ACA wasn't perfect, but 40 million people have some health insurance who wouldn't have had it without Obama and the Dems.
What have you done that's helped anyone?
What on Earth is this strawman tangent? Touch grass.
I'm sure your outside organizing will be much easier under the "let's arrest or deport everyone that does agree with us, burn all the books with ideas we don't agree with, and you'll never have to vote again" candidate.
That's the thing, they never do. They have been pushing the lesser evil splitting the vote bullshit for over 150 years. The only people that benefits is the wealthy
Were the party system changes before then more due to
a major party crushing the other major party, and then splitting, or
a minor party growing and eventually replacing one of the two major parties?
Bonus points if anyone has a source on this.
October Surprise comes to mind.
It's not like your vote matters now. Money has all the power in this country, voters have none. When 1 billionaire has more political influence than entire states you have no power. You've surrendered your power to the donor class.
Who do you think has a better chance of fixing that? Putin's orange Fleshlight? The chick he had dinner with? Brainworm? Some other rando that gets less than 1% of the vote?
I hear you...it's a problem...
Throwing your vote away this cycle ensures that your vote will never matter again.
The vote thrown away is the vote that's cast out of fear. The dnc's entire platform for the last few decades has been. We are not the other guy. You were casting a vote in opposition to the other guy, not in favor of policy or legislation, but not the other guy, that's a protest vote
No...I'm voting for policy this time around. If I get the state exception for state taxes I get a point and a half back.
Trump's tariffs should fucking terrify everyone...think shit is expensive now, wait until that goes through.
What's the 3rd parties offering that has a remote chance of dealing with either of those problems?
What policy, the one that was hastily copy/pasted from Biden's website?
Throw your vote away...wipe Palestine off the map...increase prices by 20% across the board...make sure women's healthcare is never again a choice in this nation.
I hope your high horse can carry you over the flaming wreck that'll be the USA when your boy or girl doesn't get 1% but manages to swing the vote in those battleground states.
I don't know what you're going on about. There's nearly no Palestine remaining to begin with. There's very few remaining standing structures left in Gaza. The unlimited amounts of money and weapons Biden/Harris has provided has allow Netanyahu to 'finish the job.' And if he's not able to finish the job by January, Harris is already committed more money and weapons to him to allow him to finish it.
I'm not concerned about that possible fictitious 20% that may happen when we're living right now with stagnant wages, unaffordable housing, no access to healthcare or education. While they have you terrified of things that might happen, you're actively ignoring what's going on right now, but that's the entire intent of distracting you from the now.
If you haven't been paying attention, women's health care lost their rights to reproductive care during a Biden administration. They fucked around for 50 years and found out. But abortion being a states rights issue is what Biden had advocated his entire Congressional career.
If your party was so concerned, they should have made an effort to earn my vote. But even if they had tried, genocide is the red line for a majority of people with any type of conscious or morals.
Cool story bro...enjoy the end of Democracy.
End of democracy while you are demanding everyone support a candidate that's never won an election, primary, or electoral vote, that was appointed with no contest?
Cool story bro
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/11/opinion/politicians-voters.html nyt. "Despite extensive public outreach...11%..." The NEW YORK TIMES, of all publications!
This is the epitome of why Democrats hate Trump. He says the quiet things out loud. He has said 'I dont care about you. I just want your vote.'
This article confirms this, the Princeton study from 2012 confirms this. Several sources have confirmed politicians don't care about us, only the monied class
It's not a way to defeat the duopoly, it's a way to survive under it.
Voting 3rd party is also not a way to defeat the duopoly.
Give me a reasonable alternative and I'll take it.
You don't name a candidate to vote for, just say we shouldn't participate.
Who do you think scares Donnie more, Harris or your non-participation?
This will never happen. The replacement party will be fascist. The Republican Party's fascism doesn't exist because of "brainwashing" or "conmen," it exists because fascism rises from decaying Capitalism. If you don't get rid of the Capitalism, the conditions for fascism remain.
The Democrats will never work against their donors. This will never happen.
Especially when their donors are the same donors to the GOP
Absolutely.
That part. They know where we're going, the only difference as far as I can see is some prefer it slower, to keep from spooking the populace, and others are willing to slaughter any part of the populace that resist.
One day, the lambs will stop screaming.
Marx didn't live long enough to see just how ineffectual that line of thinking actually is.
I don't think "ineffectual" is the word you're looking for there.
Same capitalists trying the same failed tactics of voter suppression.
Every one of his perspectives of capitalism and it's bourgeoisie governments still rings true.
Rings true, isn't true in actual practice.
Rings true in practice
Sounds a lot like the Trumpers decide if something is true to me.
Is the US Socialist? Has Socialism been brought about by establishment parties anywhere in history?
Yes. Look up 'the New Deal.'
FDR was a Social Democrat, not a Socialist.
If it wasn't for his Secretary of Labor, Francis Perkins, who was socialist, none of the things that he passed would have ever come to fruition. He gets way too much for credit for the ideology of a female socialist
Slow motion is better than no motion.
It's pointless to argue over who is a 'real' Socialist. I can come up with arguments about anyone you care to name to prove they weren't 'real' Socialists. What are the policies that actually improve people's lives?
FDR was okay, then his safety nets were stripped away. They were only ever temporary concessions because Capitalists were always the ones in control, and they still are. In this manner, it was eventually no motion.
Almost as if the point of socialism is to strip away the the means of production from the capitalists in order to install a dictatorship of the proletariat, and not simply apply social safety-net band-aids so that capitalism can continue to function.
American liberals are so exhausting in their selective application of definitions.
100%, I'm trying to get them to come to that conclusion on "their own."
Would make things a lot easier, lol
Almost as if it's important to get out and vote in every election.
Ronald Reagan sabotaged Jimmy Carter's Iran policy and squeaked in with the help of spoiler John Anderson.
You yourself said it; there were good policies in place, the Right hated them, and used a lot of dirty tricks to get rid of the good policies.
Having good government is like controlling diabetes; you have to be vigilant all the time.
Jesus christ, that's just not what socialism is.
There's a reason why social-democrats are castigated in communist circles. Social-democratic policy is always inevitably eroded because social safety nets don't solve the fundamental contradiction of capitalism. It isn't a matter of 'getting out the vote'
I've spent decades listening to Communists tell me that the revolution was just around the corner.
And i've spent decades listening to liberals tell me that capitalism just needs to be reformed.
So we agree. The Communist revolution isn't coming anytime soon so we should work with what we've got.
Errrrr, do we though? lmao
No, I fundamentally disagree with your entire view of historical development, ie the why behind everything.
History is a progression of material conditions, not people and ideas, not Great Individuals making Big Moves. Social Democracy came at a time when the Soviet Union was rising, and Capitalists within America feared similar uprisings in America, compounded by the Great Depression. Concessions were allowed in that context, temporarily.
Neoliberalism came later, after WWII, during the height of the Cold War. It was a way to further seek profits in the Global South.
Fascism is rising now because Capitalism is undoubtedly in decline, and is decaying further.
Material Conditions drive the ideas that drive the masses that drive what's salient, not random Great People doing everything.
History isn't people? History is nothing but people.
Also, nothing you wrote disproves what I said.
We had the New Deal in place, and Reagan came along and stripped away things like banking regulations.
We could have a 90% tax rate tomorrow if people voted for it.
History is the process of Material Reality moving through time. The events of history are guided by the past, they aren't random, chaotic events. In your analysis, Social Democracy came because FDR came, in my analysis, Social Democracy came because America was recovering from the Great Depression and the Ruling Class was terrified of a US Revolution, coming hot off the heels of the October Revolution.
Why was Reagan elected in the first place? Why did he have the ideas he had, and why did people vote for them?
Where's the ballot measure for that?
Now you're just playing word games.
What you call a 'Process of Material Reality' could as easily be called G*d or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
You can't disprove what I wrote about voting, so you're trying to change the discussion.
Assuming God exists, God is outside material reality, as is the fsm. People are a part of material reality, and also not the entity of it, despite our grandiose illusions. As US citizens, ourselves have very little say so, regardless of who is in office. Until we decide we do. Voting isn't the deciding factor, is what I'm understanding.
What on Earth could you have possibly meant? When could we have voted for a 90% tax rate?
Secondly, are you actually denying that history is a physical process? Like, if I throw a ball at someone, they will then be hit by that ball shortly after, right? Then they are hurt, and may retaliate, right? History is a series of reactions, not random special heroes and heroines being born.
I have never tried to change the discussion, you're resorting to weird debatelord logic and aren't worth engaging with anymore. Have a good one.
Nope, which is part of the problem.
Yep, which is why Socialists answered the Reform or Revolution question in Marx's time quite definitively. The answer is Revolution.
careful what you say to jordanlund. he's a mod and despite his supposed love for socialism (and chaotic good t-shirt), he likes to ban accounts that promote violent revolution.
If my relatively tame comments defending the basics of Marxism get me banned, then they will be doing me a favor.
Admins and mods in the West are walking a fine legal line, and servers can be seized. Not saying I agree with it, but that I do recognize it.
FDR has entered the chat.
Look up the New Deal.
Hell, look up the 1956 GOP Party platform.
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2014/oct/28/facebook-posts/viral-meme-says-1956-republican-platform-was-prett/
Are you doing a lot of things exactly the way they did in 1850?
Politics is
So, things like social media and votes for women [to name two] are meaningless?
So how'd that work out for him and Germany?