I'm finding it very difficult to phrase this comment. I want to share my thoughts, but I know that if I am perceived as a bigot, everything I say will be seen as something to be defeated rather than understood. But tiptoeing around the subject doesn't convey my meaning any better. So please, give me the benefit of the doubt long enough to hear me out.
I think what nexus is doing here is inappropriate. Mods, by their very existence, give players choice. Even this one: it means players can now choose he or she or to not be asked at all. Nexus, by removing this mod, is exerting what influence they have to eliminate that choice.
Nexus has considerable influence. For many games, particularly Bethesda games, they are seen as the default and complete source of mods. When looking for new mods to install, most people wouldn't bother checking other sites since everything is on nexus. If players aren't aware a mod exists, in other words they are unaware an option exists, that hinders them from making that choice. Also, their vortex mod manager makes installing mods from nexus super simple. By removing the mod from their site, they are making installing the mod at least a little bit more difficult.
I have seen multiple people posit here that removing the mod is fine because it does something so silly and pointless that no one should care about it. But we all care about silly, pointless things from time to time. I have spent days comparing all of the ways of getting unified GTK and QT themes on my desktop to try and get them just right. That was entirely pointless. But I wanted it that way, so I made it that way. I don't have to justify it to anyone, and neither do the users of this mod. Installing the mod will only affect their game, no one else even has to know about it. Nexus' decision does effect other people. They do have to justify themselves. Removing the mod is telling people they must select a pronoun. If it is really so pointless, nexus shouldn't have bothered removing the mod.
People also claim that the political implications made by the mod are dangerous, and must be suppressed. I know you'll roll your eyes at me, but yes: I'm making the free speech argument. It really is important though. If we, as a society and as individuals, accept suppressing speech for it's ideological contents, then we are begging the question: which ideas are ok, and which aren't? The ability to control public discourse is powerful, and highly coveted by anyone who wants to bend society to their will. It has been done before, and we know how horrible the consequences can be. It is incredibly dangerous. Answering that question at all is only justifiable in the face of a comparable danger. Is the idea of not being asked one's pronouns really a comparable danger? Nexus seems to think so.
Of course, free speech also protects Nexus' right to control what they put on their platform. I am not saying they shouldn't have that right. But nexus is a platform, not a person. They position their site not as a place for them to share their own content, but for others to share theirs. Any modification to the contents of their site is a modification to other people's speech, not just Nexus's. They ought to use their capability in this regard responsibly and sparingly. Their actions here are neither.
I thought that others here on Lemmy believed in the same principles I do. That people should have total control over their own software and activities with it. That neither corporations nor governments should take any action to unduly control what they do with their own property. The belief in FOSS and decentralization seemed to go hand in hand with that. But if something like this can make you all turn on those principles, then maybe the resemblance wasn't even skin deep.
I think what nexus is doing here is inappropriate. Mods, by their very existence, give players choice. Even this one: it means players can now choose he or she or to not be asked at all. Nexus, by removing this mod, is exerting what influence they have to eliminate that choice.
I don't think you're a bigot, but I also think you're off the mark.
First off, the mod has quite literally zero value. Installing it is more work than ignoring an option during character creation. I constantly ignore options I don't care about during character creation, it really isn't hard. It's hard to interpret the intent of the creator of the mod, as well as its users, as anything else but being out for blood.
That alone though isn't a reason to remove the mod -- Nexus is full of useless mods. But something neat happens when you do nuke the mod: Bigots come out of the woodwork, you can ban them in one fell stroke, and thereby lessen your moderation load in the long term.
Removing the mod is telling people they must select a pronoun. If it is really so pointless, nexus shouldn’t have bothered removing the mod.
You don't have to select a pronoun. The default will match the phenotype of the body you select.
I am now totally confused as to what is even going on. After reading multiple top level comments, many responses and then reading the article (gasp I know... blasphemy) I can't tell if conservatives are mad about pronouns being an option or not being an option. Many of the comments made it sound like they added pronouns, the way the article is written makes it sound like they removed the ability to choose pronouns.
So which is it. Who is mad, and why exactly?
Edit: Okay, maybe I understand now. Someone created a mod that removed pronouns. The place that hosts mod downloads, removed that mod from their list of downloads. Now people are mad it was removed. Do I have that right? If so, my only remaining question is if one were to use the mod, does it mean others not using the mod can't see their pronoun(s)?
Selecting the sex of the PC has been a standard feature in practically every RPG with character creator ever, and definitely in Bethesda RPGs, what they added is an option to change pronouns the PC is referred to by NPCs from the default. If you want them to match you simply don't touch that option, done.
From a developer's perspective it's dead simple, similar in triviality as allowing people to mix+match any voice to any body type. Cyberpunk's free choice of genitals needs some implementation care but if you're planning for it from the start it's also easy.
Where things get more complicated is things like dresses for male bodies, especially if you don't have any shape keys in place. But if you use one body mesh for everything and simply shape key it into male and female then it's again no issue (you also need to lerp animations then, probably, male and female bodies walk differently because hips). Basically it's hard if your asset pipeline is simple, if the pipeline is sophisticated it's easy.
If so, my only remaining question is if one were to use the mod, does it mean others not using the mod can’t see their pronoun(s)?
It's a singleplayer game. Nothing you do can have any effect on the experience other people have with the game.
I think this is the reply that prompted me to reply at the top of the post. Does your edit mean I was of some help? You appear to have the right of it, yes.
As to your second question: what mod loadout a player has will have zero bearing on another's experience. If one were to use the mod, others would not be affected.
Yes, I believe re-reading your comment (not sure if it was post or pre edit) finally made me put all the pieces together.
If this is single player, the controversy is even more dumb than I had originally thought.
Now I am curious what the default pronoun options are, and if you were able to skip choosing it entirely, or pick "other" or "none"?
Apparently it defaults to the one matching your phenotype. The game gave you the option to change it if you felt like it. The mod removed that option and may have had a rant against the existence of LGBT+ people in its description and that description was the cause for removal (I can't verify since it was removed, but that's what others have said).
Does anyone know what the list is? Can you even choose they/them or xe/xem? Or is it just you could pick the inverse?
"There are three pronoun options right now, He/Him, She/Her, and They/Them."
Look up the paradox of tolerance.
This mod is taking away a choice though.
I'm pretty sure the vanilla game has the option to choose pronouns that conform to whatever your feelings about gender are. So choose that option and play the game.
Why should Nexus devote resources to a mod that removes options from a game? There's no point to this mod for anyone that's of sound mind. The only reason for it's existence is some petty bullshit from people that hate trans people so much they will install a mod in a feeble attempt to feel like they hurt people in some small way.
If the mod just totally skipped character creation and the goal was to just save time, I could see the purpose. But its clearly not there to save anyone time; its just there as an excuse to tirade against certain demographics for existing.
I’m pretty sure the vanilla game has the option to choose pronouns that conform to whatever your feelings about gender are.
If you're a hardcore heteronormie, congrats, the default behavior of the game conforms with your worldview. Simply choose a male or female body, and don't even touch the pronouns. They're automatically what they're "supposed" to be.
No it's not, you have the choice not to download it it's not forced upon you.
Removing the mod is telling people they must select a pronoun.
No, it defaults to body type.
This option is literally nothing to people who don't care - and the people who care enough to dislike it, are assholes. They have their private reasons and their private reasons are bad. Bigotry is not an OK idea. We've had that discussion, it went very predictably, and it has a right answer. We don't need to endlessly litigate whether we've been too harsh about demonstrable bigotry.
A website saying 'no thank you' to an act of petty bigotry is a non-event. There is no fucking danger in moderation excluding that. That's what moderation... is. That's why we have human beings reviewing stuff, instead of offering an unfiltered pile of everything all the time.
In this context of moderation: game modifications must successfully and safely do something useful. This fails on two out of three points. It successfully removes a feature. But that feature is easily ignored with no side effects or consequences, and the blindingly obvious motivation behind its removal is overt sexual prejudice. While safe in the sense that it won't brick your computer, it's plainly a threatening message to the people who use this feature - it is dehumanizing. It is treating the possibility of their existence as something intolerable, to be excised. To be physically removed.
You can still install this stupid mod. It hasn't been erased from reality. It's just not approved on one website with clear rules against exactly that sort of thing. Making bad things harder to do is not some betrayal of your right to make terrible decisions. A lot of things that are possible have barriers for good reasons.
And none of you grasping at freedom as an excuse to entertain bigotry seem remember - we all have a right to freedom of association. We don't want to deal with that shit. You can't make us, and still pretend you care about choice.
I mean we already have seen this before with Marvel's SpiderMan pride flag removal mod.
This is not a place of acceptance. This is a left wing echo chamber. You either tow the narrative or GTFO.
I think of myself as very moderate. I'm neither supportive of right wing horse shit or the lefts batshit insanity. I'll get downvoted into oblivion every time for pointing out this place being extreme left, or for making any comment that doesn't align strictly with the narrative taking points.
what exactly is the left's batshit insanity in this instance? literally that the game lets you pick your pronouns?
did you know that fallout: a post-nuclear role playing game (1997) also allowed you to do this? a few other games that have let you do this are fallout 2 (1998), mass effect (2007), fallout 3 (2008), mass effect 2 (2010), skate 3 (2010), the elder scrolls 5: skyrim (2011 and also every year since), mass effect 3 (2013), fallout 4 (2015), sonic forces (2017), mass effect andromeda (2017), cyberpunk 2077 (2020), trackmania 2020 (2020), and literally every other game ever to feature a character creator. if this is batshit insanity, then i can't wait to find out what you think of unions.
Literally enlightened centrism.
Yah, how dare someone not be a polarised momo and make me have to assess their pov without a convenient label with which to dismiss it.
What narrative talking points? Gay people exist, trans people exists. There's nothing political about that. If you think otherwise you need to adjust thinking of yourself as a moderate.
Depends on the community. I have had reasonable results, but I do have to be extra careful. It probably helps that I'm kind of a stealth leftist.
Dude I thought reddit was leftist and then I came here. Funny thing is I'm a pansy lefty European (believe in social healthcare, UBI and all that good stuff) yet this place is a bit much for me.
I can deal with lefties a lot easier than r/politics types.
The fact that you wrote that wall of text just to not get attacked speaks volumes of the current state of progressivism in this place, you can't say anything and you are walking on eggshells.
And you know what? Fuck those dipshits.
And are these "progressives" in the room now? No, they're clearly not. Nobody is attacking him and he's not even being downvoted.
He wrote the wall of text because he has the self awareness to know that the comment he is writing is functionally identical to what a far-right reactionary "hiding their power level" would write.
What are you fuckin talking about? Are you are bot or something?
if you're having trouble comprehending what he wrote in a few sentences, perhaps your bot needs more tokens to parse what he's putting out, for humans it's incredibly straight forward.
He edited his comment and added more, Sherlock
Did they edit your comment too where you quoted them?
In case you edit your comment, the quote was
He wrote the wall of text because he has the self awareness to know that the comment he is writing is functionally identical to what a far-right reactionary “hiding their power level” would write
If I'm Holmes what does that make you, Boebert?
I haven't been caught jacking off men in theaters in front of children, so I guess no?
Any more incredible witty remarks?
I haven’t been caught
it'd be better for everyone if you just didn't jerk them off in the first place, jeeze....
instead of waiting for enforcement and accountability take responsibility for your life.
it'd be better for everyone if you just didn't jerk them off in the first place, jizzz....
Fixed
chortleworthy
He wrote the wall of text because he has the self awareness to know that the comment he is writing is functionally identical to what a far-right reactionary "hiding their power level" would write
This paragraph is the funniest shit I have read today.
Yep, you're exactly what everyone expected.
Yeah sure I'm the boogeyman booooh, the irony is so delicious.
I'm finding it very difficult to phrase this comment. I want to share my thoughts, but I know that if I am perceived as a bigot, everything I say will be seen as something to be defeated rather than understood. But tiptoeing around the subject doesn't convey my meaning any better. So please, give me the benefit of the doubt long enough to hear me out.
I think what nexus is doing here is inappropriate. Mods, by their very existence, give players choice. Even this one: it means players can now choose he or she or to not be asked at all. Nexus, by removing this mod, is exerting what influence they have to eliminate that choice.
Nexus has considerable influence. For many games, particularly Bethesda games, they are seen as the default and complete source of mods. When looking for new mods to install, most people wouldn't bother checking other sites since everything is on nexus. If players aren't aware a mod exists, in other words they are unaware an option exists, that hinders them from making that choice. Also, their vortex mod manager makes installing mods from nexus super simple. By removing the mod from their site, they are making installing the mod at least a little bit more difficult.
I have seen multiple people posit here that removing the mod is fine because it does something so silly and pointless that no one should care about it. But we all care about silly, pointless things from time to time. I have spent days comparing all of the ways of getting unified GTK and QT themes on my desktop to try and get them just right. That was entirely pointless. But I wanted it that way, so I made it that way. I don't have to justify it to anyone, and neither do the users of this mod. Installing the mod will only affect their game, no one else even has to know about it. Nexus' decision does effect other people. They do have to justify themselves. Removing the mod is telling people they must select a pronoun. If it is really so pointless, nexus shouldn't have bothered removing the mod.
People also claim that the political implications made by the mod are dangerous, and must be suppressed. I know you'll roll your eyes at me, but yes: I'm making the free speech argument. It really is important though. If we, as a society and as individuals, accept suppressing speech for it's ideological contents, then we are begging the question: which ideas are ok, and which aren't? The ability to control public discourse is powerful, and highly coveted by anyone who wants to bend society to their will. It has been done before, and we know how horrible the consequences can be. It is incredibly dangerous. Answering that question at all is only justifiable in the face of a comparable danger. Is the idea of not being asked one's pronouns really a comparable danger? Nexus seems to think so.
Of course, free speech also protects Nexus' right to control what they put on their platform. I am not saying they shouldn't have that right. But nexus is a platform, not a person. They position their site not as a place for them to share their own content, but for others to share theirs. Any modification to the contents of their site is a modification to other people's speech, not just Nexus's. They ought to use their capability in this regard responsibly and sparingly. Their actions here are neither.
I thought that others here on Lemmy believed in the same principles I do. That people should have total control over their own software and activities with it. That neither corporations nor governments should take any action to unduly control what they do with their own property. The belief in FOSS and decentralization seemed to go hand in hand with that. But if something like this can make you all turn on those principles, then maybe the resemblance wasn't even skin deep.
I don't think you're a bigot, but I also think you're off the mark.
First off, the mod has quite literally zero value. Installing it is more work than ignoring an option during character creation. I constantly ignore options I don't care about during character creation, it really isn't hard. It's hard to interpret the intent of the creator of the mod, as well as its users, as anything else but being out for blood.
That alone though isn't a reason to remove the mod -- Nexus is full of useless mods. But something neat happens when you do nuke the mod: Bigots come out of the woodwork, you can ban them in one fell stroke, and thereby lessen your moderation load in the long term.
Last, but not least, the curse of neutrality aka the Nazi bar thing.
Oh, EDIT:
You don't have to select a pronoun. The default will match the phenotype of the body you select.
I am now totally confused as to what is even going on. After reading multiple top level comments, many responses and then reading the article (gasp I know... blasphemy) I can't tell if conservatives are mad about pronouns being an option or not being an option. Many of the comments made it sound like they added pronouns, the way the article is written makes it sound like they removed the ability to choose pronouns.
So which is it. Who is mad, and why exactly?
Edit: Okay, maybe I understand now. Someone created a mod that removed pronouns. The place that hosts mod downloads, removed that mod from their list of downloads. Now people are mad it was removed. Do I have that right? If so, my only remaining question is if one were to use the mod, does it mean others not using the mod can't see their pronoun(s)?
Selecting the sex of the PC has been a standard feature in practically every RPG with character creator ever, and definitely in Bethesda RPGs, what they added is an option to change pronouns the PC is referred to by NPCs from the default. If you want them to match you simply don't touch that option, done.
From a developer's perspective it's dead simple, similar in triviality as allowing people to mix+match any voice to any body type. Cyberpunk's free choice of genitals needs some implementation care but if you're planning for it from the start it's also easy.
Where things get more complicated is things like dresses for male bodies, especially if you don't have any shape keys in place. But if you use one body mesh for everything and simply shape key it into male and female then it's again no issue (you also need to lerp animations then, probably, male and female bodies walk differently because hips). Basically it's hard if your asset pipeline is simple, if the pipeline is sophisticated it's easy.
It's a singleplayer game. Nothing you do can have any effect on the experience other people have with the game.
I think this is the reply that prompted me to reply at the top of the post. Does your edit mean I was of some help? You appear to have the right of it, yes.
As to your second question: what mod loadout a player has will have zero bearing on another's experience. If one were to use the mod, others would not be affected.
Yes, I believe re-reading your comment (not sure if it was post or pre edit) finally made me put all the pieces together.
If this is single player, the controversy is even more dumb than I had originally thought.
Now I am curious what the default pronoun options are, and if you were able to skip choosing it entirely, or pick "other" or "none"?
Apparently it defaults to the one matching your phenotype. The game gave you the option to change it if you felt like it. The mod removed that option and may have had a rant against the existence of LGBT+ people in its description and that description was the cause for removal (I can't verify since it was removed, but that's what others have said).
Does anyone know what the list is? Can you even choose they/them or xe/xem? Or is it just you could pick the inverse?
"There are three pronoun options right now, He/Him, She/Her, and They/Them."
Look up the paradox of tolerance.
This mod is taking away a choice though.
I'm pretty sure the vanilla game has the option to choose pronouns that conform to whatever your feelings about gender are. So choose that option and play the game.
Why should Nexus devote resources to a mod that removes options from a game? There's no point to this mod for anyone that's of sound mind. The only reason for it's existence is some petty bullshit from people that hate trans people so much they will install a mod in a feeble attempt to feel like they hurt people in some small way.
If the mod just totally skipped character creation and the goal was to just save time, I could see the purpose. But its clearly not there to save anyone time; its just there as an excuse to tirade against certain demographics for existing.
If you're a hardcore heteronormie, congrats, the default behavior of the game conforms with your worldview. Simply choose a male or female body, and don't even touch the pronouns. They're automatically what they're "supposed" to be.
No it's not, you have the choice not to download it it's not forced upon you.
No, it defaults to body type.
This option is literally nothing to people who don't care - and the people who care enough to dislike it, are assholes. They have their private reasons and their private reasons are bad. Bigotry is not an OK idea. We've had that discussion, it went very predictably, and it has a right answer. We don't need to endlessly litigate whether we've been too harsh about demonstrable bigotry.
A website saying 'no thank you' to an act of petty bigotry is a non-event. There is no fucking danger in moderation excluding that. That's what moderation... is. That's why we have human beings reviewing stuff, instead of offering an unfiltered pile of everything all the time.
In this context of moderation: game modifications must successfully and safely do something useful. This fails on two out of three points. It successfully removes a feature. But that feature is easily ignored with no side effects or consequences, and the blindingly obvious motivation behind its removal is overt sexual prejudice. While safe in the sense that it won't brick your computer, it's plainly a threatening message to the people who use this feature - it is dehumanizing. It is treating the possibility of their existence as something intolerable, to be excised. To be physically removed.
You can still install this stupid mod. It hasn't been erased from reality. It's just not approved on one website with clear rules against exactly that sort of thing. Making bad things harder to do is not some betrayal of your right to make terrible decisions. A lot of things that are possible have barriers for good reasons.
And none of you grasping at freedom as an excuse to entertain bigotry seem remember - we all have a right to freedom of association. We don't want to deal with that shit. You can't make us, and still pretend you care about choice.
I mean we already have seen this before with Marvel's SpiderMan pride flag removal mod.
This is not a place of acceptance. This is a left wing echo chamber. You either tow the narrative or GTFO.
I think of myself as very moderate. I'm neither supportive of right wing horse shit or the lefts batshit insanity. I'll get downvoted into oblivion every time for pointing out this place being extreme left, or for making any comment that doesn't align strictly with the narrative taking points.
what exactly is the left's batshit insanity in this instance? literally that the game lets you pick your pronouns?
did you know that fallout: a post-nuclear role playing game (1997) also allowed you to do this? a few other games that have let you do this are fallout 2 (1998), mass effect (2007), fallout 3 (2008), mass effect 2 (2010), skate 3 (2010), the elder scrolls 5: skyrim (2011 and also every year since), mass effect 3 (2013), fallout 4 (2015), sonic forces (2017), mass effect andromeda (2017), cyberpunk 2077 (2020), trackmania 2020 (2020), and literally every other game ever to feature a character creator. if this is batshit insanity, then i can't wait to find out what you think of unions.
Literally enlightened centrism.
Yah, how dare someone not be a polarised momo and make me have to assess their pov without a convenient label with which to dismiss it.
You were wrong.
What narrative talking points? Gay people exist, trans people exists. There's nothing political about that. If you think otherwise you need to adjust thinking of yourself as a moderate.
Depends on the community. I have had reasonable results, but I do have to be extra careful. It probably helps that I'm kind of a stealth leftist.
Dude I thought reddit was leftist and then I came here. Funny thing is I'm a pansy lefty European (believe in social healthcare, UBI and all that good stuff) yet this place is a bit much for me.
I can deal with lefties a lot easier than r/politics types.
Great distinction.
The fact that you wrote that wall of text just to not get attacked speaks volumes of the current state of progressivism in this place, you can't say anything and you are walking on eggshells.
And you know what? Fuck those dipshits.
And are these "progressives" in the room now? No, they're clearly not. Nobody is attacking him and he's not even being downvoted.
He wrote the wall of text because he has the self awareness to know that the comment he is writing is functionally identical to what a far-right reactionary "hiding their power level" would write.
What are you fuckin talking about? Are you are bot or something?
if you're having trouble comprehending what he wrote in a few sentences, perhaps your bot needs more tokens to parse what he's putting out, for humans it's incredibly straight forward.
He edited his comment and added more, Sherlock
Did they edit your comment too where you quoted them?
In case you edit your comment, the quote was
If I'm Holmes what does that make you, Boebert?
I haven't been caught jacking off men in theaters in front of children, so I guess no?
Any more incredible witty remarks?
it'd be better for everyone if you just didn't jerk them off in the first place, jeeze....
instead of waiting for enforcement and accountability take responsibility for your life.
Fixed
chortleworthy
This paragraph is the funniest shit I have read today.
Yep, you're exactly what everyone expected.
Yeah sure I'm the boogeyman booooh, the irony is so delicious.