I definitely see this as “we can’t get away with the boys club anymore” rather than a problem with Gen Z. Gen Z won’t hide their unhappiness with any of the -isms and will call it out instead of just keeping their head down.
Right, it’s not the lack of skills to disagree. What it is, is the bravery to not tolerate intolerance, and they stand for what they believe the world should be. Making mr grouper proud out here.
Yeah, I'm proud of the younger generation. I see them standing up against the kinda shit that my generation at the same age just accepted or perpetrated.
I'm a millennial but this reminds me of when I first got into the work force and was stuck in an office full of boomers with me being the youngest. I remember the boss would take turns taking shots at different people during meetings, making insensitive racial jokes about people. I eventually got tired of doing the uncomfortable fake laugh so I just sat there stone faced during his jokes. He halted the entire meeting to a stop to ask me why I wasn't laughing. This is the extent to which office culture must be obeyed and how insecure they get when you don't go along with it. It's so pathetic.
I’m also a millennial with a similar experience in my first job in 2004 or 2005, except instead of racial jokes, it was jokes about boobs, sexist rumors about another coworker moonlighting as a stripper, unwanted touching, etc, and when I reported it, I was told to “grow up” by my supervisor.
Ohhh yeah, there was that too, I can definitely recall one of my male managers making comments about a woman's body when she wasn't in the room. So gross.
"YoU CaNT sAy AnYtHiNg AnYMoRe"
"How am I supposed to compliment a woman these days?"
It's the same boomers that make those complaints whining about Gen Z
This is exactly it. I've seen this exact thing play out a bunch of times. It's a real threat to them, because so many of these people got to where they are because they know how to work that frat boy culture to their advantage, and now they suddenly have to deal with people who don't find their shit funny. The reality is that they don't actually have any real skills besides the politics of being loud and borish.
The thing is, if you say "black lives matter" they'll quietly run to HR and claim they don't feel comfortable and they don't want politics in the workplace. Then they'll turn right around and go back to talking fondly about their date rape days at Cornell
Fair enough. But if you don't tell someone why you are unhappy with them or the situation they control, then nothing improves for anyone.
I believe the impetus is on the bigot to figure their shit out. It is exhausting arguing with bigots, and it is not people's job to teach them how not to be a bigot. There is enough information out there now that you should know not to be an intolerant asshole, and if someone chooses instead to be a piece of shit, I'm comfortable with them being ostracized while they sort themselves out. And if they can't, I'm comfortable with them dying old, alone and confused wondering why nobody visits them.
This sounds like you are promoting an "I'm right, your wrong, and I have no responsibility to correct or educate." mentality. I'm not sure if trusting the people with opposing views to change on their own is the best approach. I think only deepens divides and entrenches opposition.
People with opposing ideas do exist in a vacuum and will have no problem putting the time in to recruiting others to their way of thinking and promoting similar thinkers to positions of power and influence. Ostracizing those you disagree can just as easily put you in a bubble of isolation, or an echo chamber, as them.
Not to mention that discussing opposing ideas improves understanding both by defending your views and by better understanding the why and origins of their ideas.
There's nothing wrong with having a "not my responsibility to correct or educate mentality". These assholes are grown adults. If they haven't figured things out by now then fuck em.
I think that there is something wrong with the "not my job" approach. I believe in the saying "The only thing evil needs to thrive is for good people to do nothing."
Assuming that everyone has shared in your socioeconomic upbringing and therefore has the same access to diverse ideas is flawed.
I am personally inspired by Daryl Davis, a black musician who, through simple conversation, has convinced grown adult Ku Klux Klan members to change their ways and renounce the KKK.
I believe that people should work towards the changes they want to see manifest in the world.
Yeah, I think you've got me right there. When it comes to being a bigot, I do believe in ostracizing and silencing, in order to put them in a tiny fringe echo chamber. That is much safer than having their ideas out in the open. Racists and bigots should be afraid of stating their opinion, this way their backwards-ass ideas die out with them. Because people aren't racist from well thought out rational thought. Their racist because of emotions like fear and anger. Something is going wrong in their life and it's easier to blame a marginalized group than it is it take responsibility. No amount of debate will fix that, and I'm tired of trying. Fuck them.
I also firmly believe in the paradox if tolerance. You cannot tolerate the intolerant, and part of that includes not treating their opinions as valid. Because they are not.
I understand the frustration and seeming futility in trying to change the minds of those with opposing views. It takes constant work and vigilance, but it is important challenge their ideas. Even if you make zero impact on them, you can reach other people. Especially if you have the discussion in a public venue, like an internet firum. Even if you don't change any minds, if you truly believe in something then you should continue to work towards it.
As for the "they should already know better" argument, I wonder if you are familiar with Daryl Davis, a black musician who would sit with members of the KKK and talk to them about their beliefs. He has well over 20 robes from former klansmen who have given him their robes after he changed their views with those conversations. Turns out that most of them have never had anybody calmly listen to and then dispute the racist claims that they grew up with and have heard repeated their whole lives.
Notice how I am talking about confronting and challenging ideas, not tolerating them.
The only thing evil needs to thrive is for good people to do nothing.
I know of him, and applaud him. If I were a better man, perhaps I could do as he did. However, I no longer have that energy in me to waste. What I can do is shut their voices out of my world and my family's world. From there, I hope the Daryl Davis's of the world help them heal. But it will not be me.
I definitely see this as “we can’t get away with the boys club anymore” rather than a problem with Gen Z. Gen Z won’t hide their unhappiness with any of the -isms and will call it out instead of just keeping their head down.
Right, it’s not the lack of skills to disagree. What it is, is the bravery to not tolerate intolerance, and they stand for what they believe the world should be. Making mr grouper proud out here.
Yeah, I'm proud of the younger generation. I see them standing up against the kinda shit that my generation at the same age just accepted or perpetrated.
I'm a millennial but this reminds me of when I first got into the work force and was stuck in an office full of boomers with me being the youngest. I remember the boss would take turns taking shots at different people during meetings, making insensitive racial jokes about people. I eventually got tired of doing the uncomfortable fake laugh so I just sat there stone faced during his jokes. He halted the entire meeting to a stop to ask me why I wasn't laughing. This is the extent to which office culture must be obeyed and how insecure they get when you don't go along with it. It's so pathetic.
I’m also a millennial with a similar experience in my first job in 2004 or 2005, except instead of racial jokes, it was jokes about boobs, sexist rumors about another coworker moonlighting as a stripper, unwanted touching, etc, and when I reported it, I was told to “grow up” by my supervisor.
Ohhh yeah, there was that too, I can definitely recall one of my male managers making comments about a woman's body when she wasn't in the room. So gross.
"YoU CaNT sAy AnYtHiNg AnYMoRe"
"How am I supposed to compliment a woman these days?"
It's the same boomers that make those complaints whining about Gen Z
This is exactly it. I've seen this exact thing play out a bunch of times. It's a real threat to them, because so many of these people got to where they are because they know how to work that frat boy culture to their advantage, and now they suddenly have to deal with people who don't find their shit funny. The reality is that they don't actually have any real skills besides the politics of being loud and borish.
The thing is, if you say "black lives matter" they'll quietly run to HR and claim they don't feel comfortable and they don't want politics in the workplace. Then they'll turn right around and go back to talking fondly about their date rape days at Cornell
Fair enough. But if you don't tell someone why you are unhappy with them or the situation they control, then nothing improves for anyone.
I believe the impetus is on the bigot to figure their shit out. It is exhausting arguing with bigots, and it is not people's job to teach them how not to be a bigot. There is enough information out there now that you should know not to be an intolerant asshole, and if someone chooses instead to be a piece of shit, I'm comfortable with them being ostracized while they sort themselves out. And if they can't, I'm comfortable with them dying old, alone and confused wondering why nobody visits them.
This sounds like you are promoting an "I'm right, your wrong, and I have no responsibility to correct or educate." mentality. I'm not sure if trusting the people with opposing views to change on their own is the best approach. I think only deepens divides and entrenches opposition.
People with opposing ideas do exist in a vacuum and will have no problem putting the time in to recruiting others to their way of thinking and promoting similar thinkers to positions of power and influence. Ostracizing those you disagree can just as easily put you in a bubble of isolation, or an echo chamber, as them.
Not to mention that discussing opposing ideas improves understanding both by defending your views and by better understanding the why and origins of their ideas.
There's nothing wrong with having a "not my responsibility to correct or educate mentality". These assholes are grown adults. If they haven't figured things out by now then fuck em.
I think that there is something wrong with the "not my job" approach. I believe in the saying "The only thing evil needs to thrive is for good people to do nothing."
Assuming that everyone has shared in your socioeconomic upbringing and therefore has the same access to diverse ideas is flawed.
I am personally inspired by Daryl Davis, a black musician who, through simple conversation, has convinced grown adult Ku Klux Klan members to change their ways and renounce the KKK.
I believe that people should work towards the changes they want to see manifest in the world.
Yeah, I think you've got me right there. When it comes to being a bigot, I do believe in ostracizing and silencing, in order to put them in a tiny fringe echo chamber. That is much safer than having their ideas out in the open. Racists and bigots should be afraid of stating their opinion, this way their backwards-ass ideas die out with them. Because people aren't racist from well thought out rational thought. Their racist because of emotions like fear and anger. Something is going wrong in their life and it's easier to blame a marginalized group than it is it take responsibility. No amount of debate will fix that, and I'm tired of trying. Fuck them.
I also firmly believe in the paradox if tolerance. You cannot tolerate the intolerant, and part of that includes not treating their opinions as valid. Because they are not.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance#:~:text=The%20paradox%20of%20tolerance%20states,or%20destroyed%20by%20the%20intolerant.
I understand the frustration and seeming futility in trying to change the minds of those with opposing views. It takes constant work and vigilance, but it is important challenge their ideas. Even if you make zero impact on them, you can reach other people. Especially if you have the discussion in a public venue, like an internet firum. Even if you don't change any minds, if you truly believe in something then you should continue to work towards it.
As for the "they should already know better" argument, I wonder if you are familiar with Daryl Davis, a black musician who would sit with members of the KKK and talk to them about their beliefs. He has well over 20 robes from former klansmen who have given him their robes after he changed their views with those conversations. Turns out that most of them have never had anybody calmly listen to and then dispute the racist claims that they grew up with and have heard repeated their whole lives.
Notice how I am talking about confronting and challenging ideas, not tolerating them.
The only thing evil needs to thrive is for good people to do nothing.
I know of him, and applaud him. If I were a better man, perhaps I could do as he did. However, I no longer have that energy in me to waste. What I can do is shut their voices out of my world and my family's world. From there, I hope the Daryl Davis's of the world help them heal. But it will not be me.
Not true: boomers will eventually die