Is that why they beheaded babies, paraded naked women before/after raping/killing them, targeted civilian congregations and killed them without warning? Wait.
The Hamas attacks were barbaric and horrific. Israel giving 1 million+ people 24 hours to leave or risk being destroyed in a bombing campaign while cutting off access to food, water, and fuel is barbaric and horrific. There is such thing as nuance, but it doesn't take very much critical thinking to recognize that both Israel and Hamas are commiting atrocities.
It serves Israel for Hamas to exist. Everything Hamas does leads to the death of Palestinians more than Israelis.
And everything they don't do changes nothing, they're slowly dying and have been for a while now. Their public image changed nothing, and it wasn't about to.
How does it serve Israel for Hamas to exist if it wants to eliminate them?
It wants to eliminate Palestinians, not Hamas. Hamas is the villain they use to justify their genocide.
A WW1 era military could level the Gaza Strip with WW1 era munitions. Arguing that Israel, with a fully modern military and munitions system, is trying to genocide Gazans but just can't for some reason is arguing that Israel's military is the most incompetent military to ever have existed.
The reason they can't just level Gaza is that when the dust clears they need to be seen as the good guys. Think for just one second, even if it hurts.
After an event, proportionally the size of 44 9/11s I think they could get away with anything really.
Israel protects their people, instead of investing everything into trying to destroy the enemy. Hamas even digs out water pipes to build more rockets. As per their own propaganda Video, no less. They are proud of that.
Everything you know about Hamas you've learned from Israel and the US government.
A counter example: X initiates violence. Y steps in to end this, and partially succeeds. X wants to continue. Y oppresses X to prevent it.
Not saying that resembles the Israel-Hamas conflict, just that the logic is a bit flawed. In most random street violence situations, the oppressed in the end was the person who initiated the violence.
It takes all parties to create peace, but as long as the initial assault continues there can ultimately only be one responsible party.
You can easily find Hamas own videos and learn from them.
They're not even pretending, they outright say they're running a jihadist war against Jews.
You can easily find videos attributed to Hamas. You can't verify that Hamas aren't funded by Israel. You can't verify that Hamas are Palestinian. You also can't blame the oppressed for any actions they take to rebel against their oppressors (If you have any integrity.)
Never in history has violence been initiated by the oppressed.
That may be the most historically inaccurate statement I've ever heard.
Like what was the French and Indian war then? This statement could excuse the initiation of violence of any group in history, including the Nazis.
The Indians didn't initiate that war. The French and British did by their colonizing presence.
Indians fought on both sides of that war, often against one another.
To be clear though, there is no war without the British and the French meddling with Indian affairs.
What? The whole reason the nations split they way they did is because they had a long history of war with one another. That's a pretty ignorant assertion.
There can be no split without colonization. It's amazing that you work so hard to be so ignorant.
What? Pre-European Natives fought one another. Warfare predates colonization.
There can be no SPLIT without colonization.
We're talking about a specific scenario, but if you want to move the goalposts, let's do that.
In each and every conflict, there is one party pushing their values or priorities at the cost of others, even in tribal conflicts. The aggressor is the colonizer (oppressor) and the other person is the aggrieved party (oppressed). In each of those conflicts, the oppressor is responsible for every atrocity that is committed because in their absence, there is NO CONFLICT.
I learned it from Hamas propaganda Videos. Those they produce and make public. Like that one showing them removing water pipes to build more rockets.
You don't know that those videos weren't created by the IDF as propaganda. You don't know that Hamas isn't entirely made up of IDF. You only know the narrative that reinforces your world view. Israel loves to do things like bomb residential areas then cry that Hamas uses human shields. They love to respond to fireworks with carpet bombs.
So wild conspiracy theories are the new talking point, bizarre
Guess anything that goes against your opinion is staged propaganda/ai so we can jam our heads in the sand
It's no conspiracy to quote fascists' own words and actions.
So, why does Palestine still house and hold a high opinion over Hamas? A terrorist group just lives over there in Gaza Strip and Palestine doesn't lift a finger to get rid of them.
To you, me, and many of us, they're a terrorist group, but to those who get stepped on by the Zionist for decades, who have their home bombed, who land got stolen, who families and relatives got killed, they are their only hope.
To you, me, and many of us, theyβre a terrorist group
To all of the groups that matter, they are a terrorist group.
but to those who get stepped on by the Zionist for decades, who have their home bombed, who land got stolen, who families and relatives got killed, they are their only hope.
Then they aren't living as a government that deserves statehood. If a terrorist group is the one leading the country, that becomes the definition of that country.
To all of the groups that matter, they are a terrorist group.
good way to say "they deserved to be wiped out, innocent or not", which isn't something shocking coming from war criminal apologist.
If a terrorist group is the one leading the country, that becomes the definition of that country.
Just like War mongering state of America and War Criminal state of Israel?
Hamas isn't their hope. If they were lead by a peaceful and sane govermant, instead of terrorists, Gaza would've looked so much better today.
Hamas doesn't care about Gaza and it's people, the leaders are corrupt and living abroad, the money that's meant for schools and services and infrastructure goes to their pockets or weapons, and the biggest prisoner of Hamas is Gaza itself.
Easy for you to type out such comment in your own comfortable chair, but for them, if Israel didn't force them out of their own land and treat them like sub-human for decades, they won't resort to rely on extremist.
Want them to make better decision? Give them their land back, pay reparation fee, rebuild their destroyed facilities, in return disband and deradicalize. It took decades for a lot of wartorn country to get back on their feet and it's no difference here. If you truly think Israel can wipe out Hamas with their bombs and violent, then you must've missed what happened to Afghanistan.
Afghanistan was actually doing much better than it was under Taliban control. Women had rights, and weren't living in fear. Reforms were happening. The whole country was moving in a positive direction.
Until Trump fucked all of that up and made a deal with the Taliban to regain control again.
Israel definitely could have treated palastinians better, but not in matters of land... Israel didn't force them out of their land. It was founded legally and went on to win territory in wars in which it was the defender and offered innocents to stay and gain citizenship.
Later on, the palastinians didn't agree to several 2 state proposals which Israel did agree to, thus relinquishing again the keys to their own future.
Israel invested and invests into their infrastructure, which they don't manage well usually, like the water treatment plans Israel transfered to them when exiting Gaza.
Afghanistan's story is not the same as that of Hamas and will not end the same, I hope as many innocent people of either side come out on top and have a chance at a peaceful future, with Hamas buried and gone.
Gaza and Israel could normallize relations and Gaza could prosper.
Israel didn't force them out of their land. It was founded legally and went on to win territory in wars
The sheer amount of mental gymnastics here is astounding.
Later on, the palastinians didn't agree to several 2 state proposals which Israel did agree to
I wonder why π€π€π€
Context you seem to leave out is wars of defense.
defence
/dΙͺΛfΙns/
-military measures or resources for protecting a country.
"the minister of defence"
-fortifications or barriers against attack.
"coastal defences"
i don't see anything about defence with winning territory.
They are their hope? By mudding over 1'000 innocent people? Well, looks like they fucked up. But I assume this is what Hamas wanted to begin with, since they don't care about Palestinians at all.
Yep. Two group need to cease to exists for this war to end, Hamas and the Zionist. Both group goal is to eradicate each other, kinda like that two giant from Xenoblade Chronicle.
Except the only real guilty party there is Zanza, and they do end up living peacefully with each other once Zanza is removed.
Hamas is Zanza.
Hamas are the only group that can stop this, yet here we are, they do not even release the hostages!
Israel could only stop this if they are destroyed. The same way Ukraine can not end the war with Russia, only Russia can do that.
Nope, because the same way as Russia vs Ukraine, Russia and Israel is the main perpetrator and the oppressor.
Why did Israeli police do nothing to stop the increasing violence perpetrated by illegal Israeli Settlers attacking Palestinians, of which Palestinian police are forbidden to react to? Their cops aren't allowed to do anything, their illegal occupants cops won't do anything, and the majority of Israeli Jews say they dont want Palestinians to have the right to vote if they annex Gaza. A minority of Israelis support a two state solution.
It's not like Israel has been trying to play ball with them.
Give people better options if you want them to make better choices.
They're in an open-air prison. They don't house anybody.
Why are there still Kahanites in Israel's government?
Also, get rid of Hamas with what. Are you going to give them weapons to do it?
I don't know if you noticed but it's been more than 24 hours since they said that and they're still letting them evacuate. Time to retire that talking point.
Sure. Except "letting them evacuate" in this case is better characterized as "continuing to expel them from their homes under threat of violence." I'm not arguing the 24 hour time period is the atrocity, I'm arguing the act of creating a humanitarian crisis under the auspices of a military campaign effort is abhorrent.
It's not like we don't have any good reporting on the matter either. The BBC for example has already been attacked because they refused to declare Hamas as terrorists (a label I agree with, for the record). [This article](BBC News - Khan Younis: A Gaza city on its knees, now with a million mouths to feed https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67116403) provides some insight into the absolute horror regular Palestinians are going through right now.
When Israel declared war, what do you think that meant exactly?
It meant they're gonna finish their 60 year genocide, duh.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Both sides have done wrong. Isreal has attacked ambulances unprovoked. Hamas attacked Isreal at a music fest. Isreal retaliated by attacking schools and hospitals (aka, people that had nothing to do with said attack) Isreal has been subjugating Gaza to sub-human conditions for 20+ years. The attack on the music fest isn't justified but it is understandable.
Again. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Hamas launches their rockets from random roofs, stores the rockets in schools and hospitals. The blood is on Hamas hands.
Still shit when innocent people get hit, no question. Israel has their fare share of atrocities, so no need to "give" them some of Hamas shit.
Which videos? I have seen the pictures they were trying to use to justify beheaded babies.
Spoiler alert, no beheaded babies!
What about parading dead, innocent people through town and cheering for it?
Do you want to see crispy, burned babies? Together with their parents? Do you think they did not commit absolutely fucked up atrocities?
Those are awful. But, you should remove "beheading babies" as there's been no proof of that and you lose a little legitimacy saying it.
I did not say that. But given what I have seen, including beheadings, I have no doubt it happened to babies too.
Thought you were the top-level commenter, sorry.
Those are fucked up things that I completely denounce.
Fuck Hamas and fuck Israel.
My only support is for all the innocents involved.
That is a good stance. We can agree on all of that.
If I kill someone are you justified in killing innocents?
They are justified in making sure such an atrocity does not repeat. They owe that to their people.
They are not justified for randomly killing innocent people. Sadly, Hamas uses them as meat shields, so there is not going up be a way to avoid that. That blood is in Hamas hands. But they have to try to minimize it. Which they at least seem to do with roof knocking, telling them to leave etc.
Also, what about that propaganda now?
Just because someone does something wrong doesn't mean someone else should.
I just don't understand why I keep having to explain this to people.
Am I justified in killing a person to hurt the person holding them hostage?
If you murder me then go into hiding should the state execute you're entire family because someone needs punished to ensure it doesn't happen again?
Roof knocking my hole, they told Palestinian people what street to evacuate on and then killed like 150 people who tried to evacuate using that road. Never mind them bombing Gaza's borders so they can't escape that way and caused shells to fall on other sovereign nations which started returning fire, escalating this whole shitfest even further.
Does that justify the genocide of a entire people?
Did you read what I replied to?
Is that suitable justification of a genocide? That some people of a ethnic group committed heinous terrorist acts? How many people individuals can condemn an entire race of people? 1, 5, 2000, 10,000?
Woah if you didn't include the two item, one cannot and refused to be confirmed to the point that White House have to issue a statement saying they just "heard" from the Israel Authority, and one you're so undecided which is which, i'd thought you're talking about Israel.
Israel parades dead people, let alone innocent ones, through town with a cheering crowd?
She is still alive.
The girl paraded on a truck lying motionless, her face down, with her legs completely mangled up, while kids were spitting on her?
Is that why they beheaded babies, paraded naked women before/after raping/killing them, targeted civilian congregations and killed them without warning? Wait.
The Hamas attacks were barbaric and horrific. Israel giving 1 million+ people 24 hours to leave or risk being destroyed in a bombing campaign while cutting off access to food, water, and fuel is barbaric and horrific. There is such thing as nuance, but it doesn't take very much critical thinking to recognize that both Israel and Hamas are commiting atrocities.
It serves Israel for Hamas to exist. Everything Hamas does leads to the death of Palestinians more than Israelis.
And everything they don't do changes nothing, they're slowly dying and have been for a while now. Their public image changed nothing, and it wasn't about to.
How does it serve Israel for Hamas to exist if it wants to eliminate them?
It wants to eliminate Palestinians, not Hamas. Hamas is the villain they use to justify their genocide.
A WW1 era military could level the Gaza Strip with WW1 era munitions. Arguing that Israel, with a fully modern military and munitions system, is trying to genocide Gazans but just can't for some reason is arguing that Israel's military is the most incompetent military to ever have existed.
The reason they can't just level Gaza is that when the dust clears they need to be seen as the good guys. Think for just one second, even if it hurts.
After an event, proportionally the size of 44 9/11s I think they could get away with anything really.
Israel protects their people, instead of investing everything into trying to destroy the enemy. Hamas even digs out water pipes to build more rockets. As per their own propaganda Video, no less. They are proud of that.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
propaganda Video
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Everything you know about Hamas you've learned from Israel and the US government.
A counter example: X initiates violence. Y steps in to end this, and partially succeeds. X wants to continue. Y oppresses X to prevent it.
Not saying that resembles the Israel-Hamas conflict, just that the logic is a bit flawed. In most random street violence situations, the oppressed in the end was the person who initiated the violence.
It takes all parties to create peace, but as long as the initial assault continues there can ultimately only be one responsible party.
You can easily find Hamas own videos and learn from them.
They're not even pretending, they outright say they're running a jihadist war against Jews.
You can easily find videos attributed to Hamas. You can't verify that Hamas aren't funded by Israel. You can't verify that Hamas are Palestinian. You also can't blame the oppressed for any actions they take to rebel against their oppressors (If you have any integrity.)
That may be the most historically inaccurate statement I've ever heard.
Like what was the French and Indian war then? This statement could excuse the initiation of violence of any group in history, including the Nazis.
The Indians didn't initiate that war. The French and British did by their colonizing presence.
Indians fought on both sides of that war, often against one another.
To be clear though, there is no war without the British and the French meddling with Indian affairs.
What? The whole reason the nations split they way they did is because they had a long history of war with one another. That's a pretty ignorant assertion.
There can be no split without colonization. It's amazing that you work so hard to be so ignorant.
What? Pre-European Natives fought one another. Warfare predates colonization.
We're talking about a specific scenario, but if you want to move the goalposts, let's do that.
In each and every conflict, there is one party pushing their values or priorities at the cost of others, even in tribal conflicts. The aggressor is the colonizer (oppressor) and the other person is the aggrieved party (oppressed). In each of those conflicts, the oppressor is responsible for every atrocity that is committed because in their absence, there is NO CONFLICT.
I learned it from Hamas propaganda Videos. Those they produce and make public. Like that one showing them removing water pipes to build more rockets.
You don't know that those videos weren't created by the IDF as propaganda. You don't know that Hamas isn't entirely made up of IDF. You only know the narrative that reinforces your world view. Israel loves to do things like bomb residential areas then cry that Hamas uses human shields. They love to respond to fireworks with carpet bombs.
So wild conspiracy theories are the new talking point, bizarre
Guess anything that goes against your opinion is staged propaganda/ai so we can jam our heads in the sand
It's no conspiracy to quote fascists' own words and actions.
So, why does Palestine still house and hold a high opinion over Hamas? A terrorist group just lives over there in Gaza Strip and Palestine doesn't lift a finger to get rid of them.
To you, me, and many of us, they're a terrorist group, but to those who get stepped on by the Zionist for decades, who have their home bombed, who land got stolen, who families and relatives got killed, they are their only hope.
To all of the groups that matter, they are a terrorist group.
Then they aren't living as a government that deserves statehood. If a terrorist group is the one leading the country, that becomes the definition of that country.
good way to say "they deserved to be wiped out, innocent or not", which isn't something shocking coming from war criminal apologist.
Just like War mongering state of America and War Criminal state of Israel?
Hamas isn't their hope. If they were lead by a peaceful and sane govermant, instead of terrorists, Gaza would've looked so much better today.
Hamas doesn't care about Gaza and it's people, the leaders are corrupt and living abroad, the money that's meant for schools and services and infrastructure goes to their pockets or weapons, and the biggest prisoner of Hamas is Gaza itself.
Easy for you to type out such comment in your own comfortable chair, but for them, if Israel didn't force them out of their own land and treat them like sub-human for decades, they won't resort to rely on extremist.
Want them to make better decision? Give them their land back, pay reparation fee, rebuild their destroyed facilities, in return disband and deradicalize. It took decades for a lot of wartorn country to get back on their feet and it's no difference here. If you truly think Israel can wipe out Hamas with their bombs and violent, then you must've missed what happened to Afghanistan.
Afghanistan was actually doing much better than it was under Taliban control. Women had rights, and weren't living in fear. Reforms were happening. The whole country was moving in a positive direction.
Until Trump fucked all of that up and made a deal with the Taliban to regain control again.
Israel definitely could have treated palastinians better, but not in matters of land... Israel didn't force them out of their land. It was founded legally and went on to win territory in wars in which it was the defender and offered innocents to stay and gain citizenship.
Later on, the palastinians didn't agree to several 2 state proposals which Israel did agree to, thus relinquishing again the keys to their own future.
Israel invested and invests into their infrastructure, which they don't manage well usually, like the water treatment plans Israel transfered to them when exiting Gaza.
Afghanistan's story is not the same as that of Hamas and will not end the same, I hope as many innocent people of either side come out on top and have a chance at a peaceful future, with Hamas buried and gone.
Gaza and Israel could normallize relations and Gaza could prosper.
The sheer amount of mental gymnastics here is astounding.
I wonder why π€π€π€
Context you seem to leave out is wars of defense.
defence
/dΙͺΛfΙns/
-military measures or resources for protecting a country.
"the minister of defence"
-fortifications or barriers against attack.
"coastal defences"
i don't see anything about defence with winning territory.
They are their hope? By mudding over 1'000 innocent people? Well, looks like they fucked up. But I assume this is what Hamas wanted to begin with, since they don't care about Palestinians at all.
Yep. Two group need to cease to exists for this war to end, Hamas and the Zionist. Both group goal is to eradicate each other, kinda like that two giant from Xenoblade Chronicle.
Except the only real guilty party there is Zanza, and they do end up living peacefully with each other once Zanza is removed.
Hamas is Zanza.
Hamas are the only group that can stop this, yet here we are, they do not even release the hostages! Israel could only stop this if they are destroyed. The same way Ukraine can not end the war with Russia, only Russia can do that.
Nope, because the same way as Russia vs Ukraine, Russia and Israel is the main perpetrator and the oppressor.
Why did Israeli police do nothing to stop the increasing violence perpetrated by illegal Israeli Settlers attacking Palestinians, of which Palestinian police are forbidden to react to? Their cops aren't allowed to do anything, their illegal occupants cops won't do anything, and the majority of Israeli Jews say they dont want Palestinians to have the right to vote if they annex Gaza. A minority of Israelis support a two state solution.
It's not like Israel has been trying to play ball with them.
Give people better options if you want them to make better choices.
They're in an open-air prison. They don't house anybody.
Why are there still Kahanites in Israel's government?
Also, get rid of Hamas with what. Are you going to give them weapons to do it?
I don't know if you noticed but it's been more than 24 hours since they said that and they're still letting them evacuate. Time to retire that talking point.
Sure. Except "letting them evacuate" in this case is better characterized as "continuing to expel them from their homes under threat of violence." I'm not arguing the 24 hour time period is the atrocity, I'm arguing the act of creating a humanitarian crisis under the auspices of a military campaign effort is abhorrent.
It's not like we don't have any good reporting on the matter either. The BBC for example has already been attacked because they refused to declare Hamas as terrorists (a label I agree with, for the record). [This article](BBC News - Khan Younis: A Gaza city on its knees, now with a million mouths to feed
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67116403) provides some insight into the absolute horror regular Palestinians are going through right now.
When Israel declared war, what do you think that meant exactly?
It meant they're gonna finish their 60 year genocide, duh.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Both sides have done wrong. Isreal has attacked ambulances unprovoked. Hamas attacked Isreal at a music fest. Isreal retaliated by attacking schools and hospitals (aka, people that had nothing to do with said attack) Isreal has been subjugating Gaza to sub-human conditions for 20+ years. The attack on the music fest isn't justified but it is understandable.
Again. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Hamas launches their rockets from random roofs, stores the rockets in schools and hospitals. The blood is on Hamas hands.
Still shit when innocent people get hit, no question. Israel has their fare share of atrocities, so no need to "give" them some of Hamas shit.
Israeli official says government cannot confirm babies were beheaded ... - CNN https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html
You are falling for the propaganda friend.
Propaganda? Have you not seem the videos?
Which videos? I have seen the pictures they were trying to use to justify beheaded babies.
Spoiler alert, no beheaded babies!
What about parading dead, innocent people through town and cheering for it?
Do you want to see crispy, burned babies? Together with their parents? Do you think they did not commit absolutely fucked up atrocities?
Those are awful. But, you should remove "beheading babies" as there's been no proof of that and you lose a little legitimacy saying it.
I did not say that. But given what I have seen, including beheadings, I have no doubt it happened to babies too.
Thought you were the top-level commenter, sorry.
Those are fucked up things that I completely denounce.
Fuck Hamas and fuck Israel.
My only support is for all the innocents involved.
That is a good stance. We can agree on all of that.
If I kill someone are you justified in killing innocents?
They are justified in making sure such an atrocity does not repeat. They owe that to their people.
They are not justified for randomly killing innocent people. Sadly, Hamas uses them as meat shields, so there is not going up be a way to avoid that. That blood is in Hamas hands. But they have to try to minimize it. Which they at least seem to do with roof knocking, telling them to leave etc.
Also, what about that propaganda now?
Just because someone does something wrong doesn't mean someone else should.
I just don't understand why I keep having to explain this to people.
Am I justified in killing a person to hurt the person holding them hostage?
If you murder me then go into hiding should the state execute you're entire family because someone needs punished to ensure it doesn't happen again?
Roof knocking my hole, they told Palestinian people what street to evacuate on and then killed like 150 people who tried to evacuate using that road. Never mind them bombing Gaza's borders so they can't escape that way and caused shells to fall on other sovereign nations which started returning fire, escalating this whole shitfest even further.
Does that justify the genocide of a entire people?
Did you read what I replied to?
Is that suitable justification of a genocide? That some people of a ethnic group committed heinous terrorist acts? How many people individuals can condemn an entire race of people? 1, 5, 2000, 10,000?
Woah if you didn't include the two item, one cannot and refused to be confirmed to the point that White House have to issue a statement saying they just "heard" from the Israel Authority, and one you're so undecided which is which, i'd thought you're talking about Israel.
Israel parades dead people, let alone innocent ones, through town with a cheering crowd?
She is still alive.
The girl paraded on a truck lying motionless, her face down, with her legs completely mangled up, while kids were spitting on her?
https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/german-woman-paraded-naked-hamas-terrorists-alive-mother-claims-israel-hama-war-2447302-2023-10-11
From her mother. But it won:t be long because, as we all know, Gaza is being bombed indiscriminately.
Thatβs a relief, despite her current state. I really hope she gets sent back home asap
Hey, she wanβt alive after allβ¦
https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-770787
Yeah π’