Just like fascists, tankies could theoretically hang out here without getting the boot. It's just that genocide denying authoritarians cannot be tolerated in a tolerant, democratic society. The reason tankies and fascists get the boot is because they can't resist trying to bully and intimidate those that find their views abhorrent. They simply can't resist being terrible.
They're cultists with views that can't stand up to scrutiny, so they need use other tactics to spread their shit and gain power. They use the real downsides and weaknesses of democracy to argue we need an even worse system. Then they argue you actually hold the worst views of their enemies, even though they usually support exactly the same things that make those enemies bad. Tankies claim you're a free-market liberal for opposing them, when the countries they support are state capitalists. Fascists claim you're against freedom of speech, while they are always trying to ban ideas they hate. Some of them are misguided and believe their own lies, but others are just awful people.
Tankies traditionally are associated with communists, but today's tankies (even those that call themselves communists) are really after authoritarianism than communism, and given the history of the name (that they supported using tracks on civilians). I don't think they're is much difference between current communists and current fascists, both groups seem to support authoritarianism and feels like term "tankies" fits both of them well.
I learned about a week ago why they are the way they are. See the soviet union was the closest in their mind the world has ever come to communism, so even though it's fallen into fascist oligarchy, they still hold hope that the anticommunist putin is going to rise up and reestablish global communism once more. The only problem with that is that... well Russia doesn't want communism. This is their playbook Yeah, that doesn't look socialist, that looks like "we tried communism it didn't work so lets do fascism this time" so they end up throwing their support towards red flavored fascism since it's the best chance (in their minds) at getting global communism. When the alternative is an american nazi world order, or tiny countries with no power, you don't really have much choice.
But here's something I want every single one of you to realize having read all of that: Even the most fascist redfash still would have killed the nazis. The same cannot be said for the average (in-power) liberal today. Anticommunism is always pro-fascism. Never let your critiques of the left turn into support for the right.
EDIT: Case in point, the person i'm responding to is never going to see this post because they're on a nazi bar instance that banned me.
Even the most fascist redfash still would have killed the nazis.
They'd kill who they define as nazis. I find that tankies' (especially Hexbear) definition of nazism doesn't entirely correspond to mine or that of most other people. So this is not something to be super optimistic about.
It is a bare minimum that the current world order can't even pass. They can't even go a week without funding a mass ethnic genocide.
I really have no idea what people are trying to say or getting at in a lot of these comments, it feels like one of those art experiments where words don't have meaning but are used to express emotion
It doesn't help that I think I ended up replying to the wrong comment :s
Lol redfash killing nazis isn't worth praise. Redfash kill each other the first chance they get. They are so paranoid when they come to power they purge anyone and everyone they can.
The users are a mixed bag but the mods/admins absolutely are in the business of running a nazi bar. They're doing the classic strategy of passively protecting fascists while actively suppressing those calling out the fascists. They also ban people who are open communists.
Meanwhile, .ml keeps banning my accounts for just commenting on c/worldnews these days.
I'm not a troll. You can go look at my contributions. I made some hexbears look like idiots and now they've got me on a leash.
I've learned the fun way not to bother with hexbear users. They're only here to antagonize nazis so best not to get in the way of that.
I muted a couple dozen hexbear accounts when the whole instance was out seemingly trying to antagonize the entire fediverse.
Turns out that got the vast majority of annoying trolls from there.
It feels shitty until you see them do it to an especially crap person, then you can't help but sit back and distribute upvotes.
so even though it’s fallen into fascist oligarchy,
You know any left wing project after being overthrown by the US would also end up a fascist oligarchy right? As was the case with the illegal and undemocratic dissolution of the Soviet Union brought about by the US.
Even the most fascist redfash
A mainstream Jewish holocaust scholar on equating fascism and communism and why it is bad
Yeah I was making a point that even the most "fascist" communist is still a zillion times less fascist than your average liberal. I love that you brought that article because it reinforces my point that anti-communism is always pro-fascism.
I hate it when threads like this make me have to repeatedly post the mainstream Jewish holocaust historian "stop conflating fascism and communism" article
Are you aware how obnoxious it is to spam a 5,000 word article while refusing to provide any summation or distillation of its thesis?
Paste it into ChatGPT if you're having reading challenges
I'd like to respond, but I'm going to need you to read 5,000 words on my personal philosophy towards online commenting before I do.
im sorry you have a problem reading
I'm sorry you have a problem summarizing
Wait but I'm a communist. As in communes first, no state, no hierarchy, collective ownership, and all that jazz. I'm not super well read on the theory. Its really easy to see the difference, we're not splitting hairs here.
That is why I use anarchist instead. It means all of that while also making it clear that authoritarianism is not ok.
That's called collective anarchism. Anarchism is what the name implies... and most lemmy users wouldn't last especially long lmao
More specifically, yes. It is collective anarchism, but in this context I think it is obvious enough that I don't need to clarify it further.
Also I think that any type of anarchism allows for collective anarchism, and by extension could be used to mean collective anarchism.
I mean if your definition of collectivism is men with guns taking what they want then yeah that sounds likely. I'm also a collective anarchist, but it's important to note how far we must come as a species before we can actually engage meaningfully in such a philosophy, otherwise it will just regress on progress made in other spheres. Bolstering of education is a good step in this process, but also moral and philosophical teachings.
Collective anarchism, along with all utopias, is unachievable, but a system incorporating its tenets is certainly possible, I just question whether it would devolve into men with guns taking what they want.
I most certainly do not mean men with guns taking whatever they want. That is authoritarian. The revolution is an ongoing process to redefine society as a non-hierarchical. I see it as non-violent: only defending against violence, never inciting it.
We as a species are far enough for anarchism to work, people just have to stop believing in authority, and we have to help them.
I also do not think anarchism is a utopia. There is nothing about it that couldn't work. Non-hierarchical societies have existed, and their dissolution just means people aren't ready yet.
Yes, but in the anarchic society, what stops men with guns from taking what they want?
You understand that you can still have anarchy without collectivism right? It's just called lawlessness, and when that happens, men with guns take what they want. Literally just look at any period of political instability in pretty much any country for just about all of history. What stops our current society from devolving into that if anarchic revolution were to occur?
Also, I'm not reading the book you linked. If there's relevant information, feel free to point out which paragraph/section.
I think it is best to clarify my terms. Anarchy to me is a structured society built entirely out of free associations.
It isn't lawless. Anarchy has rules. A lawless society will naturally take the shape of the people in that society. If all the people are anarchists, they will create an anarchist society, if they are statists, they will create a state. Society is a collection of people living together there is no reason it has to be hierarchical. The people are the ones who make it like that.
What stops our current society from devolving into that if anarchic revolution were to occur?
An anarchist revolution is the complete transformation of society to use non-hierarchical power structures.
If after the revolution the society falls back into hierarchy then that means the people were not willing to let go their addiction to authority.
The link is for an FAQ, technically not a book, since most books are shorter than 3077 pages. However it does contain every question one might have about anarchy and answers it pretty neatly.
After it happens, and there are no hierarchies or authorities, what stops men with guns from taking what they want?
I don't appreciate your pedantics about my use of hyperbolic verbiage in order to bring an element of humor to my argument.
Also good job dodging the question.
I apologize you couldn't find the answer to your question from my comment, and thus thought I was dodging it.
I tried to explain it in the way that I see it. In my eyes I answered your question clearly, but I will try to be even clearer on my second try.
(hopefully this doesn't come off as patronizing)
I would also like to know what were the pedantics that you identified in my comment. If it was the final statement then that was my attempt to bring humor into the argument and wasn't in any way meant seriously. Perhaps I should have used /j
To get to your question (and hopefully answer it more clearly). An anarchist society forms when anarchists come together to create a society. If someone with guns came to destroy that society the anarchists would defend themselves. If one of the anarchists turns their gun against their comrades the others would respond in kind. If they don't the person takes power and the system stops being anarchistic.
Or to put it even more simply: In an anarchist society everyone is policing and protecting everyone else.
The lack of organizational structure for such militias formed by the anarchists and lack of authority mean though that a conspiracy to destroy the anarchist society will always be infinitely many steps ahead of the response of said society.
Furthermore, what stops the ~30% of people (whether nazi Germany or DJT, that's usually the percentage of votes recieved for right wing radicals) that will almost definitely not be interested in keeping the anarchist society functioning from attaining weapons and having their way? Even ignoring the historic context, tribalism seems baked into the human existence, how is that nullified?
Further, people will always be fearful, so it's great to say "their fellow anarchists would take up arms" but how many are truly willing to do that? Revolutions would be much more common if they were.
That's why I think there's significant cultural/educational changes needed before such a society (or something similar) could be attained.
I think it works great on a local level in small communities, but we have a globalized world, for better or worse, and have greatly outgrown the small communities in which such a philosophy would be most effective imo.
@GiveMemes that's what current society is. You just happen to be on the side of the men with guns
It really isn't. There's reasons that we've created laws and it's because the vast majority can't be expected to do the right thing just because it's the right thing and this isn't a one time thing, this is the entirety of history. I'm not "on the side of the men with guns" just for pointing out the obvious issue with the utopia, just as I'm not a neo-liberal capitalist for pointing out the inherent issues with the communist utopia or a dirty commie for pointing out the obvious issued with a capitalist utopia.
As it turns out, when you just talk about something and don't actually encounter the hardships of reality, all the ideas are amazing and fantastic lol. In an anarchic society you would be killed, enslaved, or raped. Human society hasn't come to the point yet where we could transition to such an idea without those problems.
@GiveMemes you're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying you're on the side of the men with guns because you're asking questions about anarchy. I'm saying that because you literally live in a world whose status quo is enforced by violence, and you are advocating for the institutions which enforce that status quo as necessary.
Every status quo is enforced by violence. That's kinda why we pursue utopian ideals is to minimize said violence. Shoot for the moon, land among the stars kinda thing.
An actual anarchist revolution would just lead to more violence tho without significant changes to our culture. Hatred, tribalism, and fear are all innate to humans. The question is how we overcome those base feelings in order to form a better society.
Anybody can give you a better society than the one that exists. It's exceedingly easy. The trick is to make it actually work.
Wanting all of that but without the authoritarian bit should be called something else. I'm from a country which was occupied by communists (collective ownership was a thing) and it sucked big time.
Ouch. Thats really disappointing to hear and like I think more important for me as a western leftist is probably not reading theory but how these things go wrong and lead to bad outcomes.
There is no perfect system, textbook wonderland communism has lots of flaws too. In my ideal world it should be a mix of everything.
Communal gardens or hobby workshops are great, communal workplaces not so much. I mean, people should be allowed to get rich if they can do it without abusing others. You should be able to start and grow your company, and get paid for it accordingly.
That could make a fine compromise. If we can remove that capital barrier to starting your own business, we can remove the profit incentive to pay rent or loans. Working for an enterprising person would be really nice.
Yes, when it comes to the axis from authoritarian to anarchist. Things all tend to narrow in to a single point at either end. In regards to authoritarians, it's all about the hierarchy and holding power for themselves. They don't give a shit what form of government sits under that. When it comes to anarchists and libertarians, no government other than a largely flat form of socialism is acceptable. Simply because they are focused on freedoms both individual and social. And large monolithic hierarchies tend to get in the way of that.
And when I use the term libertarian I of course mean actual libertarians. Not temporarily embarrassed Republicans, or teenage capitalists. The easiest test to find out whether someone might accidentally be a libertarian or not. Is to find out if they belong to the Libertarian party, or ever plan to vote for their candidates. No one who would ever do that could ever be a libertarian lol
those "libertarians" are just anarcho-capitalists who think the issue isn't the system itself but they couldn't get access to the pie soon enough and get a bigger piece than everyone else so they think we should do a reset do this time they can come out on top
it's enough to look at how Crypto works with it's deflationary system where first buyers are much stronger than late comers or the MOAS /ape crowd
Just like fascists, tankies could theoretically hang out here without getting the boot. It's just that genocide denying authoritarians cannot be tolerated in a tolerant, democratic society. The reason tankies and fascists get the boot is because they can't resist trying to bully and intimidate those that find their views abhorrent. They simply can't resist being terrible.
They're cultists with views that can't stand up to scrutiny, so they need use other tactics to spread their shit and gain power. They use the real downsides and weaknesses of democracy to argue we need an even worse system. Then they argue you actually hold the worst views of their enemies, even though they usually support exactly the same things that make those enemies bad. Tankies claim you're a free-market liberal for opposing them, when the countries they support are state capitalists. Fascists claim you're against freedom of speech, while they are always trying to ban ideas they hate. Some of them are misguided and believe their own lies, but others are just awful people.
Tankies traditionally are associated with communists, but today's tankies (even those that call themselves communists) are really after authoritarianism than communism, and given the history of the name (that they supported using tracks on civilians). I don't think they're is much difference between current communists and current fascists, both groups seem to support authoritarianism and feels like term "tankies" fits both of them well.
I learned about a week ago why they are the way they are. See the soviet union was the closest in their mind the world has ever come to communism, so even though it's fallen into fascist oligarchy, they still hold hope that the anticommunist putin is going to rise up and reestablish global communism once more. The only problem with that is that... well Russia doesn't want communism. This is their playbook Yeah, that doesn't look socialist, that looks like "we tried communism it didn't work so lets do fascism this time" so they end up throwing their support towards red flavored fascism since it's the best chance (in their minds) at getting global communism. When the alternative is an american nazi world order, or tiny countries with no power, you don't really have much choice.
But here's something I want every single one of you to realize having read all of that: Even the most fascist redfash still would have killed the nazis. The same cannot be said for the average (in-power) liberal today. Anticommunism is always pro-fascism. Never let your critiques of the left turn into support for the right.
EDIT: Case in point, the person i'm responding to is never going to see this post because they're on a nazi bar instance that banned me.
They'd kill who they define as nazis. I find that tankies' (especially Hexbear) definition of nazism doesn't entirely correspond to mine or that of most other people. So this is not something to be super optimistic about.
It is a bare minimum that the current world order can't even pass. They can't even go a week without funding a mass ethnic genocide.
I really have no idea what people are trying to say or getting at in a lot of these comments, it feels like one of those art experiments where words don't have meaning but are used to express emotion
It doesn't help that I think I ended up replying to the wrong comment :s
Ah yeah that makes a lot of sense 🗜️
Lol redfash killing nazis isn't worth praise. Redfash kill each other the first chance they get. They are so paranoid when they come to power they purge anyone and everyone they can.
Lemmy world are nazis?
The users are a mixed bag but the mods/admins absolutely are in the business of running a nazi bar. They're doing the classic strategy of passively protecting fascists while actively suppressing those calling out the fascists. They also ban people who are open communists.
Meanwhile, .ml keeps banning my accounts for just commenting on c/worldnews these days.
I'm not a troll. You can go look at my contributions. I made some hexbears look like idiots and now they've got me on a leash.
I've learned the fun way not to bother with hexbear users. They're only here to antagonize nazis so best not to get in the way of that.
I muted a couple dozen hexbear accounts when the whole instance was out seemingly trying to antagonize the entire fediverse.
Turns out that got the vast majority of annoying trolls from there.
It feels shitty until you see them do it to an especially crap person, then you can't help but sit back and distribute upvotes.
You know any left wing project after being overthrown by the US would also end up a fascist oligarchy right? As was the case with the illegal and undemocratic dissolution of the Soviet Union brought about by the US.
A mainstream Jewish holocaust scholar on equating fascism and communism and why it is bad
https://jewishcurrents.org/the-double-genocide-theory
Yeah I was making a point that even the most "fascist" communist is still a zillion times less fascist than your average liberal. I love that you brought that article because it reinforces my point that anti-communism is always pro-fascism.
Slaps Table Thank You!
I hate it when threads like this make me have to repeatedly post the mainstream Jewish holocaust historian "stop conflating fascism and communism" article
https://jewishcurrents.org/the-double-genocide-theory
Are you aware how obnoxious it is to spam a 5,000 word article while refusing to provide any summation or distillation of its thesis?
Paste it into ChatGPT if you're having reading challenges
I'd like to respond, but I'm going to need you to read 5,000 words on my personal philosophy towards online commenting before I do.
im sorry you have a problem reading
I'm sorry you have a problem summarizing
Wait but I'm a communist. As in communes first, no state, no hierarchy, collective ownership, and all that jazz. I'm not super well read on the theory. Its really easy to see the difference, we're not splitting hairs here.
That is why I use anarchist instead. It means all of that while also making it clear that authoritarianism is not ok.
That's called collective anarchism. Anarchism is what the name implies... and most lemmy users wouldn't last especially long lmao
More specifically, yes. It is collective anarchism, but in this context I think it is obvious enough that I don't need to clarify it further.
Also I think that any type of anarchism allows for collective anarchism, and by extension could be used to mean collective anarchism.
I mean if your definition of collectivism is men with guns taking what they want then yeah that sounds likely. I'm also a collective anarchist, but it's important to note how far we must come as a species before we can actually engage meaningfully in such a philosophy, otherwise it will just regress on progress made in other spheres. Bolstering of education is a good step in this process, but also moral and philosophical teachings.
Collective anarchism, along with all utopias, is unachievable, but a system incorporating its tenets is certainly possible, I just question whether it would devolve into men with guns taking what they want.
I most certainly do not mean men with guns taking whatever they want. That is authoritarian. The revolution is an ongoing process to redefine society as a non-hierarchical. I see it as non-violent: only defending against violence, never inciting it.
Between writing that comment I read through the anarchist FAQ on revolution.
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/the-anarchist-faq-editorial-collective-an-anarchist-faq-full#text-amuse-label-secj7
And I agree with it wholeheartedly.
We as a species are far enough for anarchism to work, people just have to stop believing in authority, and we have to help them.
I also do not think anarchism is a utopia. There is nothing about it that couldn't work. Non-hierarchical societies have existed, and their dissolution just means people aren't ready yet.
Yes, but in the anarchic society, what stops men with guns from taking what they want?
You understand that you can still have anarchy without collectivism right? It's just called lawlessness, and when that happens, men with guns take what they want. Literally just look at any period of political instability in pretty much any country for just about all of history. What stops our current society from devolving into that if anarchic revolution were to occur?
Also, I'm not reading the book you linked. If there's relevant information, feel free to point out which paragraph/section.
I think it is best to clarify my terms. Anarchy to me is a structured society built entirely out of free associations. It isn't lawless. Anarchy has rules. A lawless society will naturally take the shape of the people in that society. If all the people are anarchists, they will create an anarchist society, if they are statists, they will create a state. Society is a collection of people living together there is no reason it has to be hierarchical. The people are the ones who make it like that.
An anarchist revolution is the complete transformation of society to use non-hierarchical power structures. If after the revolution the society falls back into hierarchy then that means the people were not willing to let go their addiction to authority.
The link is for an FAQ, technically not a book, since most books are shorter than 3077 pages. However it does contain every question one might have about anarchy and answers it pretty neatly.
After it happens, and there are no hierarchies or authorities, what stops men with guns from taking what they want?
I don't appreciate your pedantics about my use of hyperbolic verbiage in order to bring an element of humor to my argument.
Also good job dodging the question.
I apologize you couldn't find the answer to your question from my comment, and thus thought I was dodging it. I tried to explain it in the way that I see it. In my eyes I answered your question clearly, but I will try to be even clearer on my second try.
(hopefully this doesn't come off as patronizing)
I would also like to know what were the pedantics that you identified in my comment. If it was the final statement then that was my attempt to bring humor into the argument and wasn't in any way meant seriously. Perhaps I should have used /j
To get to your question (and hopefully answer it more clearly). An anarchist society forms when anarchists come together to create a society. If someone with guns came to destroy that society the anarchists would defend themselves. If one of the anarchists turns their gun against their comrades the others would respond in kind. If they don't the person takes power and the system stops being anarchistic.
Or to put it even more simply: In an anarchist society everyone is policing and protecting everyone else.
The lack of organizational structure for such militias formed by the anarchists and lack of authority mean though that a conspiracy to destroy the anarchist society will always be infinitely many steps ahead of the response of said society.
Furthermore, what stops the ~30% of people (whether nazi Germany or DJT, that's usually the percentage of votes recieved for right wing radicals) that will almost definitely not be interested in keeping the anarchist society functioning from attaining weapons and having their way? Even ignoring the historic context, tribalism seems baked into the human existence, how is that nullified?
Further, people will always be fearful, so it's great to say "their fellow anarchists would take up arms" but how many are truly willing to do that? Revolutions would be much more common if they were.
That's why I think there's significant cultural/educational changes needed before such a society (or something similar) could be attained.
I think it works great on a local level in small communities, but we have a globalized world, for better or worse, and have greatly outgrown the small communities in which such a philosophy would be most effective imo.
Also I totally misinterpreted your joke
@GiveMemes that's what current society is. You just happen to be on the side of the men with guns
It really isn't. There's reasons that we've created laws and it's because the vast majority can't be expected to do the right thing just because it's the right thing and this isn't a one time thing, this is the entirety of history. I'm not "on the side of the men with guns" just for pointing out the obvious issue with the utopia, just as I'm not a neo-liberal capitalist for pointing out the inherent issues with the communist utopia or a dirty commie for pointing out the obvious issued with a capitalist utopia.
As it turns out, when you just talk about something and don't actually encounter the hardships of reality, all the ideas are amazing and fantastic lol. In an anarchic society you would be killed, enslaved, or raped. Human society hasn't come to the point yet where we could transition to such an idea without those problems.
@GiveMemes you're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying you're on the side of the men with guns because you're asking questions about anarchy. I'm saying that because you literally live in a world whose status quo is enforced by violence, and you are advocating for the institutions which enforce that status quo as necessary.
Every status quo is enforced by violence. That's kinda why we pursue utopian ideals is to minimize said violence. Shoot for the moon, land among the stars kinda thing.
An actual anarchist revolution would just lead to more violence tho without significant changes to our culture. Hatred, tribalism, and fear are all innate to humans. The question is how we overcome those base feelings in order to form a better society.
Anybody can give you a better society than the one that exists. It's exceedingly easy. The trick is to make it actually work.
Wanting all of that but without the authoritarian bit should be called something else. I'm from a country which was occupied by communists (collective ownership was a thing) and it sucked big time.
Ouch. Thats really disappointing to hear and like I think more important for me as a western leftist is probably not reading theory but how these things go wrong and lead to bad outcomes.
There is no perfect system, textbook wonderland communism has lots of flaws too. In my ideal world it should be a mix of everything. Communal gardens or hobby workshops are great, communal workplaces not so much. I mean, people should be allowed to get rich if they can do it without abusing others. You should be able to start and grow your company, and get paid for it accordingly.
That could make a fine compromise. If we can remove that capital barrier to starting your own business, we can remove the profit incentive to pay rent or loans. Working for an enterprising person would be really nice.
It's called campism and it's dumb teenager stuff.
Yes, when it comes to the axis from authoritarian to anarchist. Things all tend to narrow in to a single point at either end. In regards to authoritarians, it's all about the hierarchy and holding power for themselves. They don't give a shit what form of government sits under that. When it comes to anarchists and libertarians, no government other than a largely flat form of socialism is acceptable. Simply because they are focused on freedoms both individual and social. And large monolithic hierarchies tend to get in the way of that.
And when I use the term libertarian I of course mean actual libertarians. Not temporarily embarrassed Republicans, or teenage capitalists. The easiest test to find out whether someone might accidentally be a libertarian or not. Is to find out if they belong to the Libertarian party, or ever plan to vote for their candidates. No one who would ever do that could ever be a libertarian lol
those "libertarians" are just anarcho-capitalists who think the issue isn't the system itself but they couldn't get access to the pie soon enough and get a bigger piece than everyone else so they think we should do a reset do this time they can come out on top
it's enough to look at how Crypto works with it's deflationary system where first buyers are much stronger than late comers or the MOAS /ape crowd
🤔 There should be a fediverse-wide rule against genocidal rhetoric. Who cares what side it's from?
In that case i'm fucked, because I called for the genocide of mosquitoes about a month ago.
Genocide against mosquitoes is an acceptable genocide, as are those against cockroaches and bedbugs.
As are those against fascists and landlords, but I would get in trouble if I was vocal about those ones.