In Utah people are allowed to turn right on red lights. But what most people don't seem to understand is, that means AFTER you've come to a stop at the intersection, and made sure it's SAFE to turn right. I've seen so many accidents here because people think if they're turning right, they don't have stop at the light - even though there's traffic coming through the green light side of the intersection. The problem isn't the law, it's that people don't pay attention and think about what they're doing. In every accident I've seen, humans not paying attention is the real cause.
You're missing the point. At a right turn, traffic is coming from the left and pedestrians are coming from the right. You focus left to make sure traffic is clear and then go, meanwhile a pedestrian has entered the intersection from the right and you don't notice them.
You stop. Look left. Then look where you're going then go. If you look left and drive without looking right, you're fucking up.
And at green lights, you don't even stop to look for pedestrians. You look while in motion. I'd figure that would actually be the less safe situation. Are there studies either way?
I can conservatively say that 99% of the time I approach an intersection, I see all potential pedestrian crossers long before I've come to a stop, including those on the other side of the street planning to cross towards me. Pedestrians rarely appear out of nowhere, so looking left but not looking right is a poor excuse.
99% of the time I approach an intersection, I see all potential pedestrian crossers
If you make 50 car trips a month and encounter four intersections, then you don't see two pedestrians a month. That's probably pretty accurate. Most of the time, most drivers and most pedestrians are aware, and behave safely.
Pedestrians and drivers die during that 1%.
Only applies if there aren’t bicyclists and if your view isn’t blocked. I’m sorry but your attitude is why pedestrians are dying.
are bicyclists on the road? you should be able to see them same as a car
poor visibility of sight lanes is a different issue all together and should result on a no right turn on red sign, I have one I drive through daily due to a hill on the left
real cause is larger trucks and suvs mean most people can’t see the road in front of them
Where I live we have a lot of separated bike lanes where most cities have sidewalks. So yes there are bikes on what you incorrectly identified as a sidewalk .
I’ve seen those before, not a fan given how poorly they are marked
In many locations bicyclists ride on the sidewalk, especially in high traffic situations in the USA where right turn on red is going to be deadly.
real cause is…
Yes that is one issue, but sightlines are a major one and a significant factor in why Hoboken has almost entirely eliminated pedestrian deaths while the rest of the nation continues to see them rise. Hoboken didn’t get rid of larger cars.
What people "should" do and what people actually do are two very separate concepts. Most days I ride a large motorcycle with giant panniers on it, covered by reflective shit and wearing high-viz clothing. Drivers look right at me and still don't see me, because their stupid little brains are not trained to process anything smaller than an oncoming SUV.
All competent bikers ride on the road. Children and elderly and beginners ride on the sidewalk. The sidewalk is actually more dangerous because of driveways. I never see cars check before zooming straight into the street. I had commuted by bike for nearly 20 years, been hit by cars 4 times and nearly wiped out countless other times. I don't understand why cars have more rights than pedestrians and bicyclists on the road. Whatever protects pedestrians more should be automatically applied.
Cyclists should not be coming from the right (unless it's a two-way bike lane on one sided but I've only ever seen those on a one-way).
All I hear in your excuses is, "I don't pay attention to my surroundings until I arrive at a crossing". Sorry but I think you're the danger on the road based on this.
The person I responded to literally claimed that they’re infallible and see every person approaching no matter the intersection. If that isn’t the exact definition of what you are saying I’m doing then I don’t know what is. You are clearly the danger if you think that anyone can pay attention to everything happening at all times. There’s a reason that more people die on roads in America than they do in Europe and it sure as hell isn’t because those drivers are somehow better than American drivers, it’s because vigilance doesn’t matter. Road design does.
Me. The person you responded to was me. And I didn't "literally say I was infallible", i truly think you're a moron now, and I hope you pay more attention to the road than you do to this conversation.
You think pedestrians are hiding in bushes waiting to jump out?
In a densely populated city with lots of foot traffic? Sure, ban right on red, too many cars in cities to begin with.
But lots of cities have spent decades expanding and there's hardly anyone walking once you're a couple miles from downtown except for certain areas. Same for small towns.
Making it all legal one way or the other in a state just makes zero sense.
What's wrong with just putting up a sign by the light if it's not allowed?
The problem is it isn't zero pedestrians, it is slightly more than zero so driversquit looking as it seems there never are any and then the exception happens and they didn't look.
I can confirm that approximately 0% of drivers stop before turning right on red in my location in the Northeast, as well. I have actually had other drivers chase me through traffic to catch up with me at the next light and get out of their vehicles to threaten me because they were so angry that I stopped before turning on red, like you are legally required to do. It's absolutely insane.
People treat a right turn on red like it's their own personal green light and everyone else just has to get out of their way. They don't look to see what's coming and most of the time they don't even slow down first.
There are intersections where if you're familiar with them you know what is safe. For example at one intersection near me if I just miss the green I know the next signal is to give cross traffic left turn greens, which means no one else can be going into the lanes. I do stop, but only for a brief moment because there can always be inattentive drivers doing the wrong thing.
Of course I'm not one to really get pissed at folks for not conforming to my driving preferences, so that part is weird to me, but I do get annoyed when someone stops for like 20 seconds with no traffic. If you do that, you might get the shortest toot with my horn I can manage to wake you up if you've somehow forgotten you can turn, but that's it.
I don't go anywhere with so tight a time margin that an extra minute or two in traffic is going to matter.
Well that annoys me too, especially when someone has both a green light and green turn arrow - and they don't go, they just sit there. I'm like - what more do you need, an engraved invitiation to go ahead and turn?? Then of course the light changes and we're all stuck waiting for the next signal.
I'm a very cautious driver, I've learned to be defensive in my driving and always keep my eyes peeled. So I do think it's better to err on the side of caution. I try to take into account that someone might be older or having eye problems or needs a few more seconds to complete a turn.
I live in Utah - which is bad enough, but I deal with this punitive driving malarky all the time. People getting angry at me for stopping at a red light before continuing into the turn - as if I'm the one doing something wrong!! And just where are all these people in such a frantic, panicked rush to get to that having to courteously wait for someone to turn is going to ruin their entire g-d day.
You talk about people always thinking they have a personal green light. Here in Utah, NOBODY yields right of way to anyone. In fact, every day we have more people getting hit by our Trax commuter trains because they refuse to stop for the flashing red signals and wait.
And don't think for a minute anyone here will yield right of way even if you're the one who actually has it. They never look to see if someone is coming in front or behind them - they are so oblivious to everyone else and just expect people to jump out of their way. It's really sad to see this anti-intellectual, anti-humanitarian trend in dangerous driving.
If i get a dollar every time I've been honked at for stopping on a red I can live a much comfier life
Someone honks I'm going too slow? Guess we're sitting here until a green light. Turning right on red is a choice.
In Utah people are allowed to turn right on red lights. But what most people don't seem to understand is, that means AFTER you've come to a stop at the intersection, and made sure it's SAFE to turn right. I've seen so many accidents here because people think if they're turning right, they don't have stop at the light - even though there's traffic coming through the green light side of the intersection. The problem isn't the law, it's that people don't pay attention and think about what they're doing. In every accident I've seen, humans not paying attention is the real cause.
You're missing the point. At a right turn, traffic is coming from the left and pedestrians are coming from the right. You focus left to make sure traffic is clear and then go, meanwhile a pedestrian has entered the intersection from the right and you don't notice them.
You stop. Look left. Then look where you're going then go. If you look left and drive without looking right, you're fucking up.
And at green lights, you don't even stop to look for pedestrians. You look while in motion. I'd figure that would actually be the less safe situation. Are there studies either way?
I can conservatively say that 99% of the time I approach an intersection, I see all potential pedestrian crossers long before I've come to a stop, including those on the other side of the street planning to cross towards me. Pedestrians rarely appear out of nowhere, so looking left but not looking right is a poor excuse.
If you make 50 car trips a month and encounter four intersections, then you don't see two pedestrians a month. That's probably pretty accurate. Most of the time, most drivers and most pedestrians are aware, and behave safely.
Pedestrians and drivers die during that 1%.
Only applies if there aren’t bicyclists and if your view isn’t blocked. I’m sorry but your attitude is why pedestrians are dying.
are bicyclists on the road? you should be able to see them same as a car
poor visibility of sight lanes is a different issue all together and should result on a no right turn on red sign, I have one I drive through daily due to a hill on the left
real cause is larger trucks and suvs mean most people can’t see the road in front of them
Where I live we have a lot of separated bike lanes where most cities have sidewalks. So yes there are bikes on what you incorrectly identified as a sidewalk .
I’ve seen those before, not a fan given how poorly they are marked
In many locations bicyclists ride on the sidewalk, especially in high traffic situations in the USA where right turn on red is going to be deadly.
Yes that is one issue, but sightlines are a major one and a significant factor in why Hoboken has almost entirely eliminated pedestrian deaths while the rest of the nation continues to see them rise. Hoboken didn’t get rid of larger cars.
https://youtu.be/Fh4H9qZ-_6Y
https://youtu.be/fEj-pyjA2oo
What people "should" do and what people actually do are two very separate concepts. Most days I ride a large motorcycle with giant panniers on it, covered by reflective shit and wearing high-viz clothing. Drivers look right at me and still don't see me, because their stupid little brains are not trained to process anything smaller than an oncoming SUV.
All competent bikers ride on the road. Children and elderly and beginners ride on the sidewalk. The sidewalk is actually more dangerous because of driveways. I never see cars check before zooming straight into the street. I had commuted by bike for nearly 20 years, been hit by cars 4 times and nearly wiped out countless other times. I don't understand why cars have more rights than pedestrians and bicyclists on the road. Whatever protects pedestrians more should be automatically applied.
Cyclists should not be coming from the right (unless it's a two-way bike lane on one sided but I've only ever seen those on a one-way).
All I hear in your excuses is, "I don't pay attention to my surroundings until I arrive at a crossing". Sorry but I think you're the danger on the road based on this.
The person I responded to literally claimed that they’re infallible and see every person approaching no matter the intersection. If that isn’t the exact definition of what you are saying I’m doing then I don’t know what is. You are clearly the danger if you think that anyone can pay attention to everything happening at all times. There’s a reason that more people die on roads in America than they do in Europe and it sure as hell isn’t because those drivers are somehow better than American drivers, it’s because vigilance doesn’t matter. Road design does.
Me. The person you responded to was me. And I didn't "literally say I was infallible", i truly think you're a moron now, and I hope you pay more attention to the road than you do to this conversation.
You think pedestrians are hiding in bushes waiting to jump out?
In a densely populated city with lots of foot traffic? Sure, ban right on red, too many cars in cities to begin with.
But lots of cities have spent decades expanding and there's hardly anyone walking once you're a couple miles from downtown except for certain areas. Same for small towns.
Making it all legal one way or the other in a state just makes zero sense.
What's wrong with just putting up a sign by the light if it's not allowed?
The problem is it isn't zero pedestrians, it is slightly more than zero so driversquit looking as it seems there never are any and then the exception happens and they didn't look.
I can confirm that approximately 0% of drivers stop before turning right on red in my location in the Northeast, as well. I have actually had other drivers chase me through traffic to catch up with me at the next light and get out of their vehicles to threaten me because they were so angry that I stopped before turning on red, like you are legally required to do. It's absolutely insane.
People treat a right turn on red like it's their own personal green light and everyone else just has to get out of their way. They don't look to see what's coming and most of the time they don't even slow down first.
There are intersections where if you're familiar with them you know what is safe. For example at one intersection near me if I just miss the green I know the next signal is to give cross traffic left turn greens, which means no one else can be going into the lanes. I do stop, but only for a brief moment because there can always be inattentive drivers doing the wrong thing.
Of course I'm not one to really get pissed at folks for not conforming to my driving preferences, so that part is weird to me, but I do get annoyed when someone stops for like 20 seconds with no traffic. If you do that, you might get the shortest toot with my horn I can manage to wake you up if you've somehow forgotten you can turn, but that's it.
I don't go anywhere with so tight a time margin that an extra minute or two in traffic is going to matter.
Well that annoys me too, especially when someone has both a green light and green turn arrow - and they don't go, they just sit there. I'm like - what more do you need, an engraved invitiation to go ahead and turn?? Then of course the light changes and we're all stuck waiting for the next signal.
I'm a very cautious driver, I've learned to be defensive in my driving and always keep my eyes peeled. So I do think it's better to err on the side of caution. I try to take into account that someone might be older or having eye problems or needs a few more seconds to complete a turn.
I live in Utah - which is bad enough, but I deal with this punitive driving malarky all the time. People getting angry at me for stopping at a red light before continuing into the turn - as if I'm the one doing something wrong!! And just where are all these people in such a frantic, panicked rush to get to that having to courteously wait for someone to turn is going to ruin their entire g-d day.
You talk about people always thinking they have a personal green light. Here in Utah, NOBODY yields right of way to anyone. In fact, every day we have more people getting hit by our Trax commuter trains because they refuse to stop for the flashing red signals and wait.
And don't think for a minute anyone here will yield right of way even if you're the one who actually has it. They never look to see if someone is coming in front or behind them - they are so oblivious to everyone else and just expect people to jump out of their way. It's really sad to see this anti-intellectual, anti-humanitarian trend in dangerous driving.
If i get a dollar every time I've been honked at for stopping on a red I can live a much comfier life
Someone honks I'm going too slow? Guess we're sitting here until a green light. Turning right on red is a choice.