People will do anything to avoid installing "linux"...
I'm amazed there are people out there putting windows on a Steam Deck. It's like buying a Monet and then bringing it home and doodling on it in finger paint
The anti piracy bullshit that goes along with a lot of the online games. Or in rare cases, wanting to use windows for work related stuff.
If doing certain things under proton was less of a pain in the ass, I’d agree with you. But proton still isn’t simple for some usecases.
EDIT: the people downvoting me very likely have only surface level experience with Proton. Sorry, it isn’t perfect. It’s based on WINE, which also isn’t perfect. It’s making a lot of progress and is damn close but it isn’t perfect.
The usecase being discussed is Steam Deck though. And it works perfectly on there.
I guess they are referring to playing some specific games or software which don't work well on Linux even with proton.
That's the great thing about the deck; You can use it for whatever you want.
I personally would rather not play those games than worsen the general experience by installing Windows. Other people feel differently and that's okay.
Yeah, Mod Organizer 2 beta is still broken due to a qt6 dependency issue with WINE. Vortex Mod Manager still has issues and is a pain to even install. Certain mods for games require manually renaming DLL files and figuring out which ones to rename and what the name should be. You can’t simply treat it like Windows, which means for some usecases it’ll be far more complex to handle.
Mod Organizer 2 beta for Starfield still doesn’t work properly because of a qt6 error in WINE
You’ve got to rename .dlls nonstandard because the way they’re made breaks the WINE layer
But tell me again how it works perfectly? I’ve been using these tools since before the Steam Deck existed lol
Edit: Three weeks ago you were complaining about an issue with steamOS and external display resolution.
Tell me again how it’s all perfect?
If doing certain things under proton was less of a pain in the ass, I’d agree with you. But proton still isn’t simple for some usecases.
While true for those "some usecases", Proton is the simplest solution for most use cases, though. Not because Proton is perfect but because it works best for what the Deck is designed as.
Proton is literally just the windows compatibility layer and doesn’t “work best for what the Deck is designed as”. Feel free to say that about SteamOS, sure. But Proton is literally just a side effect of most software not targeting Linux.
Proton is literally just the windows compatibility layer and doesn’t “work best for what the Deck is designed as”.
It's not possible to make a Steam Deck equivalent product with Windows, therefore there is no alternative to Proton for making a equally compelling product.
Feel free to say that about SteamOS, sure.
SteamOS is part of the product that is Steam Deck.
Your first statement is essentially factually incorrect, and your second statement is true but I’m not really sure exactly what you mean by it.
Look, all I was getting at with my point is some things don’t work right within Proton, and the solutions to make it do so are really annoying. I still like Proton, I still use Proton, I still prefer Linux (and steamOS).
That doesn’t change the fact that certain specific gaming usecases (like using a version of Mod Organizer 2 with Starfield support that isn’t outdated) are just simpler overall under Windows right now, and relatively painful to get working under Proton.
Your first statement is essentially factually incorrect
Factually? Oh, I see. I beg your forgiveness for thinking that was subjective.
How is “you can’t make an equivalent product using Windows” subjective? My bad on that, I took it as a factual claim because that’s how I read that.
And don’t get me wrong, I’m really no Windows fangirl. I prefer Linux. (OpenSUSE Tumbleweed KDE always felt like home to me) I just think as an enthusiast and user of these products being honest about where they stand is important. And at least for a world where games and their associated tools are made for Windows first, there are still some valid edge cases where installing Windows on a Deck or any other handheld PC makes sense.
So, if we’re sharing opinions, let me get yours perhaps instead of just going at each other with snark? Why couldn’t Windows be used as the base for a handheld gaming device? I could definitely see an argument about the poor UI for handheld usage, but you can set it to boot right into the new gamepad UI which is essentially just steamOS’s game mode environment, which mostly solves that.
It’s definitely not as polished, and there are still some things that aren’t great (the software for using the gamepad itself, for example. It just isn’t as automatic as over in steamOS, which is one of my primary complaints. But that could be addressed by any OEM or Microsoft directly, if they chose to do it. Whether they would, or they’d get it done as well as what’s going on in steamOS is obviously another question.
How is “you can’t make an equivalent product using Windows” subjective?
You said first statement which I thought was the Proton one. It's absolutely not possible to make a Steam Deck equivalent using Windows. It's like using Steam Deck exclusively in Desktop Mode with at best another launcher on top.
SteamOS is just Linux with the desktop environment replaced.
You can boot Windows into an alternative shell.
Do you have any firsthand experience using windows that way? Because I’ve been setting up big screen controller focused HTPC frontends on Windows using that exact method for years.
You can boot Windows into an alternative shell.
On a regular version of Windows its impossible replace all functions with a launcher.
Microsoft would need to release the Xbox version of Windows to 3rd parties.
Do you have any firsthand experience using windows that way?
Of course, probably longer than you, dating back to Windows 98 running LiteStep. At some point something from Windows itself will nag. Be it the Windows Firewall displaying its Vista-era confirmation prompt, something in the old Control Panel needing attention (for a handheld gaming system Power Options come to mind), etc. And there are 3rd party things needed for gaming that are not required for your home theater like those monstrosities that are the auxiliary tools for hardware. I'm not aware of a single ROG Ally review that says that Amory Crate is absolutely seamless and that's from one of the biggest brands in PC gaming.
That's why they called it "SteamOS", not "Steam Linux"
Fact of the matter is the most successful Linux devices are the ones that you don’t need to know Linux to use. Chromebooks and steam decks are popular because they don’t need tinkered with. You can if you want, but the average person can just use it.
The Steam Deck is the first Linux machine that hasn't killed itself on me or given me hiccups during basic installations of things.
The only thing the Steam Deck hasn't "just worked" for me for is Rocksmith.
Again, the Steam Deck is the only Linux machine that I've had that just works and does not make me want to tear my hair out.
When Linux accomplishes that it will be more popular. Until then, it feels like trying to play whackamole with fixes and solutions to things that should just work in the first place.
Yeah, the fact that it just works and comes with the hardware is good.
However I think the article is suggesting a world where gamers go and install SteamOS as a regular distro. I think that's going to be a lot harder and more error prone than just installing Mint and putting Steam on it.
The thing is valve is doing a ton of extra stuff. Game mode by default, for example.
Mint won’t do that, or at least not to the same extend/speed. If your primary use is gaming, there’s value in a gaming focused distro. You can still do many other things with it anyway.
I'd argue it hasn't imploded on you because it's immutable. You'd have a similar rock solid experience on any of the immutable Fedora releases (Silverblue, Kinoite etc) or some of the other immutable distros
That's fair, although it could go further with how an immutable distro isn't as effective for some of the desired uses - in the case of the Steam Deck it's designed to do what it does and it does it. Other Linux installs are retroactively configured by the user, where whether it's a regular computer for grandma or a server for a homelab will net you wildly different results of what distro you choose.
While it's nice having options, it doesn't make things easier for new users when searching. Having a hundred ways to solve a problem just makes the problem more annoying to solve (inb4 rtfm)
Also, I just remembered I lied. There's one other Linux install I've never had issues with which was Tails, though to your point can be operated as immutable, though I think at the time mine was not set up to be RO
Yeah as much as I love Linux, it's much more tuned for tinkerers, developers, and techies because everything is rtfm and troubleshooting yourself. After the initial setup process though, you would have gained enough knowledge to fix a lot of things if it ever is broken.
I agree to an extent regarding the last sentence, things like networking make that a whole can of worms to itself!
I just spent 2 hours trying and failing to get a Hello, World! in Eclipse, I'm not brave enough for Linux
Your first mistake was using Eclipse...
Which programming language do you want to use?
Depending on what you want to do the one does not imply the other.
(And some times coding actually is easier on Linux, I had a way better experience compiling my c++ projects there then my friend had on windows)
It's easy to compile things in Windows! First, set up WSL ...
It’s easy to compile things in Windows! First, set up WSL …
Yep, echo "Hello World!" works just as well in WSL as under native Linux.
Are you bashing bash?
Are you bashing bash?
No, I'm making fun of anybody who claims that outputting Hello World on Linux is somehow complicated.
People will do anything to avoid installing "linux"...
I'm amazed there are people out there putting windows on a Steam Deck. It's like buying a Monet and then bringing it home and doodling on it in finger paint
The anti piracy bullshit that goes along with a lot of the online games. Or in rare cases, wanting to use windows for work related stuff.
@bionicjoey @savvywolf
I love GNU, but windows 11 works very well and the software
just works, and fast. stable etc..
I tested it for 4 months.
I put steam back on yesterday because it was made for it. so it runs better.
I can also use KDE 😅💕
so it works for me.
If it had no desktop
I would have no
choice but would
be ok having to
use windows.
PS: I know there are those hurting
for a windows key. You can buy OEM keys online for 30 bucks and its legal.
https://www.kinguin.net/category/19429/windows-10-professional-oem-key
If doing certain things under proton was less of a pain in the ass, I’d agree with you. But proton still isn’t simple for some usecases.
EDIT: the people downvoting me very likely have only surface level experience with Proton. Sorry, it isn’t perfect. It’s based on WINE, which also isn’t perfect. It’s making a lot of progress and is damn close but it isn’t perfect.
The usecase being discussed is Steam Deck though. And it works perfectly on there.
I guess they are referring to playing some specific games or software which don't work well on Linux even with proton.
That's the great thing about the deck; You can use it for whatever you want.
I personally would rather not play those games than worsen the general experience by installing Windows. Other people feel differently and that's okay.
Yeah, Mod Organizer 2 beta is still broken due to a qt6 dependency issue with WINE. Vortex Mod Manager still has issues and is a pain to even install. Certain mods for games require manually renaming DLL files and figuring out which ones to rename and what the name should be. You can’t simply treat it like Windows, which means for some usecases it’ll be far more complex to handle.
Mod Organizer 2 beta for Starfield still doesn’t work properly because of a qt6 error in WINE
You’ve got to rename .dlls nonstandard because the way they’re made breaks the WINE layer
But tell me again how it works perfectly? I’ve been using these tools since before the Steam Deck existed lol
Edit: Three weeks ago you were complaining about an issue with steamOS and external display resolution.
Tell me again how it’s all perfect?
While true for those "some usecases", Proton is the simplest solution for most use cases, though. Not because Proton is perfect but because it works best for what the Deck is designed as.
Proton is literally just the windows compatibility layer and doesn’t “work best for what the Deck is designed as”. Feel free to say that about SteamOS, sure. But Proton is literally just a side effect of most software not targeting Linux.
It's not possible to make a Steam Deck equivalent product with Windows, therefore there is no alternative to Proton for making a equally compelling product.
SteamOS is part of the product that is Steam Deck.
Your first statement is essentially factually incorrect, and your second statement is true but I’m not really sure exactly what you mean by it.
Look, all I was getting at with my point is some things don’t work right within Proton, and the solutions to make it do so are really annoying. I still like Proton, I still use Proton, I still prefer Linux (and steamOS).
That doesn’t change the fact that certain specific gaming usecases (like using a version of Mod Organizer 2 with Starfield support that isn’t outdated) are just simpler overall under Windows right now, and relatively painful to get working under Proton.
Edit: It’s a lot of little stuff, like this, that makes various tools crash, that are the most frustrating. I still really admire and regularly use the WINE/Proton projects, it’s just that certain workflows are really complicated or broken in that environment.
Factually? Oh, I see. I beg your forgiveness for thinking that was subjective.
How is “you can’t make an equivalent product using Windows” subjective? My bad on that, I took it as a factual claim because that’s how I read that.
And don’t get me wrong, I’m really no Windows fangirl. I prefer Linux. (OpenSUSE Tumbleweed KDE always felt like home to me) I just think as an enthusiast and user of these products being honest about where they stand is important. And at least for a world where games and their associated tools are made for Windows first, there are still some valid edge cases where installing Windows on a Deck or any other handheld PC makes sense.
So, if we’re sharing opinions, let me get yours perhaps instead of just going at each other with snark? Why couldn’t Windows be used as the base for a handheld gaming device? I could definitely see an argument about the poor UI for handheld usage, but you can set it to boot right into the new gamepad UI which is essentially just steamOS’s game mode environment, which mostly solves that.
It’s definitely not as polished, and there are still some things that aren’t great (the software for using the gamepad itself, for example. It just isn’t as automatic as over in steamOS, which is one of my primary complaints. But that could be addressed by any OEM or Microsoft directly, if they chose to do it. Whether they would, or they’d get it done as well as what’s going on in steamOS is obviously another question.
You said first statement which I thought was the Proton one. It's absolutely not possible to make a Steam Deck equivalent using Windows. It's like using Steam Deck exclusively in Desktop Mode with at best another launcher on top.
SteamOS is just Linux with the desktop environment replaced.
You can boot Windows into an alternative shell.
Do you have any firsthand experience using windows that way? Because I’ve been setting up big screen controller focused HTPC frontends on Windows using that exact method for years.
On a regular version of Windows its impossible replace all functions with a launcher.
Microsoft would need to release the Xbox version of Windows to 3rd parties.
Of course, probably longer than you, dating back to Windows 98 running LiteStep. At some point something from Windows itself will nag. Be it the Windows Firewall displaying its Vista-era confirmation prompt, something in the old Control Panel needing attention (for a handheld gaming system Power Options come to mind), etc. And there are 3rd party things needed for gaming that are not required for your home theater like those monstrosities that are the auxiliary tools for hardware. I'm not aware of a single ROG Ally review that says that Amory Crate is absolutely seamless and that's from one of the biggest brands in PC gaming.
That's why they called it "SteamOS", not "Steam Linux"
Fact of the matter is the most successful Linux devices are the ones that you don’t need to know Linux to use. Chromebooks and steam decks are popular because they don’t need tinkered with. You can if you want, but the average person can just use it.
The Steam Deck is the first Linux machine that hasn't killed itself on me or given me hiccups during basic installations of things.
The only thing the Steam Deck hasn't "just worked" for me for is Rocksmith.
Again, the Steam Deck is the only Linux machine that I've had that just works and does not make me want to tear my hair out.
When Linux accomplishes that it will be more popular. Until then, it feels like trying to play whackamole with fixes and solutions to things that should just work in the first place.
Yeah, the fact that it just works and comes with the hardware is good.
However I think the article is suggesting a world where gamers go and install SteamOS as a regular distro. I think that's going to be a lot harder and more error prone than just installing Mint and putting Steam on it.
The thing is valve is doing a ton of extra stuff. Game mode by default, for example. Mint won’t do that, or at least not to the same extend/speed. If your primary use is gaming, there’s value in a gaming focused distro. You can still do many other things with it anyway.
I'd argue it hasn't imploded on you because it's immutable. You'd have a similar rock solid experience on any of the immutable Fedora releases (Silverblue, Kinoite etc) or some of the other immutable distros
That's fair, although it could go further with how an immutable distro isn't as effective for some of the desired uses - in the case of the Steam Deck it's designed to do what it does and it does it. Other Linux installs are retroactively configured by the user, where whether it's a regular computer for grandma or a server for a homelab will net you wildly different results of what distro you choose.
While it's nice having options, it doesn't make things easier for new users when searching. Having a hundred ways to solve a problem just makes the problem more annoying to solve (inb4 rtfm)
Also, I just remembered I lied. There's one other Linux install I've never had issues with which was Tails, though to your point can be operated as immutable, though I think at the time mine was not set up to be RO
Yeah as much as I love Linux, it's much more tuned for tinkerers, developers, and techies because everything is rtfm and troubleshooting yourself. After the initial setup process though, you would have gained enough knowledge to fix a lot of things if it ever is broken.
I agree to an extent regarding the last sentence, things like networking make that a whole can of worms to itself!
I just spent 2 hours trying and failing to get a Hello, World! in Eclipse, I'm not brave enough for Linux
Your first mistake was using Eclipse...
Which programming language do you want to use?
Depending on what you want to do the one does not imply the other. (And some times coding actually is easier on Linux, I had a way better experience compiling my c++ projects there then my friend had on windows)
It's easy to compile things in Windows! First, set up WSL ...
Yep,
echo "Hello World!"works just as well in WSL as under native Linux.Are you bashing bash?
No, I'm making fun of anybody who claims that outputting Hello World on Linux is somehow complicated.