I get a choice what I can and can't do with my body? Sign me up I guess.
The thing is, if you smoke outdoors, you are violating people's right to live in an clean environment and breathe fresh air. I don't care if you fuck yourself up in your own house, but the moment smokers smoke outside of their own homes, they are messing with the liberties of all other citizens.
The ban doesn't apply to people's homes and what they do there?
You must really hate woodstoves and fire pits. Wait till you hear about internal combustion engines!
All of those things serve a purpose. What purpose does smoking tobacco have?
And those are banned in many places, except for engines, but there are changes in that department, too
? Alcohol consumption has been dropping consistently with each new generation...
That’s because of gradual shifts in culture and attitudes, not due to prohibition.
Prohibition has failed to effectively “ban” any drug, and often tends to encourage their usage and harm efforts to alleviate addiction.
Tobacco smoking is also declining in many nations in response to improved public health awareness and again cultural shifts. If those trends continue it could all but fade away naturally. Tobacco prohibition is arguably not necessary and could even become counterproductive.
You call prohibition, I call education and restriction
Raising the legal drinking age has definitely helped. While there’s still all too many teenagers drinking, my experience through my teens is that it’s a lit fewer than when I was a kid and harder to get.
— funny story - as an obviously older adult I got carded a couple years ago at a baseball game. They had a zero tolerance policy so I could not get a beer, despite going to multiple stands. Finally, partly out of amusement, I asked a newly legal intern less than half my age to buy beer for me
I’m not so sure. I’m in the UK, many parts of Europe have more liberal laws and attitudes towards alcohol than us, but it’s the British teens (and the British in general) infamously known for binge drinking.
Yeah I always used to prefer the more liberal policies (when it affected me) and wanted to raise my kids that way but here in the US you just can’t hide from binge drinking issues predominantly in teenagers. And that type of alcohol abuse seems to have decreased with the stricter laws (a later start to problem behavior gives some time to mature)
I don’t know what about those other cultures may cause different behavior patterns but it’s not simply a matter of us loosening up, nor of parents setting an example of moderation
I hate smoking, but where do we stop?
Gamers who sit too long in a chair are an issue for the medical system, too.
People who do no sports.
People who do not sleep enough.
Eating habits...
I mean that's the classic slippery slope fallacy you're employing here. The answer is, sometimes it's a more clear cut situation and other times it isn't.
But just because the next rung down your logical ladder is more of a gray area than smoking does not mean that smoking is now also as much of a gray area. That's not how this works.
This is the same style of argument people make when debating against gay marriage. Well if gay people can get married does that mean people can marry dogs now? Why not? Where do we draw the line?
Slippery slope arguments are usually fallacious, but I don't think this one is. A slippery slope argument is valid when thing A actually does enable thing B. Banning something because it's unhealthy does, in fact, enable further bans on other things by normalizing the notion that something being enticing but unhealthy is a sufficient reason to ban it.
Just look at all the things that have been criminalized at some point on the principle that they're dangerous to the people who use them, or just that they're vaguely bad for you. Cannabis, pornography, sex toys, gambling, even raw milk! And look at the specific things we know are next because they're already being taxed in some jurisdictions. Tobacco is actually a great example because it's going through the transition right now from being heavily taxed to being banned outright.
But this isn't clear cut; I tend to hear that smokers are a net plus for a country's finances because of the taxes on cigarettes and due to dying younger, before costlier chronic disease treatments and social care are required.
So yes, you should be asking where to draw the line.
A lot of the reasoning for banning smoking is second hand smoke. So far we’re drawing the line at when your bad havit affects someone else
Where I live (the US), smoking in most public places is already banned unless you're outdoors and far from the entrance to act building. Any additional ban would apply almost exclusively to people who smoke alone or in the presence of other smokers.
That's not been the argument where I live for a generation ban, because smoking in public is already banned - so the argument is all about the health of the people who can no longer buy cigarettes.
Cool so when do we start banning junk food? This isn't a slippery slope argument. I'm using the same logic you're using against tobacco, except sugar kills more people than tobacco does.
My intake of sugar has no affect on anyone else.
Food is a necessity: smoking is not
Obesity is also more complicated than just sugar. I can only go by personal anecdote here but I struggle with weight issues despite not eating much junk or overly processed food. A sugar tax would affect actual foods but not be sufficient nor even useful toward improving health
Your intake of sugar absolutely impacts other people when you end up with chronic health issues that other people have to help pay for.
You will get by just fine without sugar in your diet. I didn't say we should ban food, I said we should ban sugar. You're struggling to show me why it's so different from tobacco.
The only real differences are 1) everyone loves sugar, so they'll make up a reason for the double standard and 2) public consumption doesn't immediately hurt other people. But then I never said I was opposed to banning smoking in public so that's actually irrelevant.
Your intake of sugarparticipation in extreme sports absolutely impacts other people when you end up with chronic health issues that other people have to help pay for.
It's not as if there's some natural law obligating you to pay for anyone else's health issues. Your government is responsible for externalizing that private cost onto you and others, effectively subsidizing risk-taking and irresponsibility. If you don't like it, insist that people pay for their own health care and insurance at market rates, without subsidies.
No, I’m clearly stating that taxing sugar is neither clear cut nor is it sufficient to be in any way useful.
-- plenty of beneficial foods have sugar, and plenty of harmful foods do not
-- there’s lots of food with negative nutritional value but it’s not just sugar nor can it be clearly distinguished from other foods
— obesity is more a matter of habits and quantity than one ingredient .
Yeah it’s satisfying to demonize the hypothetical person who drinks two liter bottles of soda every day but that’s like cutting social programs because “welfare queens” or building a wall because “anchor babies”, or police needing military gear because “gangs”, or election results needing to be overturned because “fraud”. What they all have in common is they’re a target for outrage but not real or not significant.
I’d be all for a sugar tax if I thought it could be well defined or make a difference, especially if it could make a difference for me. However of all the people I know or have met struggling with weight issues, I don’t recall any being that hypothetical sugar queen, any with any significant sweets habit that would be affected, any that could in any way be changed with this approach
Depends statistically they die earlier and of relatively quick diseases. Combined with a life time of paying steep taxes to ingest poison, usually they tend to be a net positive for the state (coldly put).
Obesity is the number one drain on the medical system by 10 fold over smokers. It's the number one cause of death western nations now. Increased cancers/disease and chronic illness, plus a whole host of other things. Smokers are already disappearing because it's been a taboo in society for a long time now. The next generation isn't smoking anymore.
Also alcohol is on the rise as well.
I think vice taxes are a great tool to discourage behavior that affects public health but we need to increase them.
However it’s a lot harder to create a vice tax on food. It would be great to make poor food choices more expensive than better choices but I don’t see how you can draw clear lines, nor be effective. For example this obese person doesn’t eat much junk or overly processed food so even if you could clearly define junk food, a vice tax wouldn’t help
Ok, but what about those of us who enjoy pipe tobacco or cigars or any other form of smoking? It's not killing us like the 6 pack a day guy...so why are we included in the ban? 99% of obese people aren't eating healthy... they're drinking a 2 liter of coke a day and eating fast food non stop. They're the pack of day smokers...so you're logic would apply to them as well...
As someone who enjoys a good microbrew once in a while, or a smooth single malt, I would be affected by a higher alcohol tax but still think it’s a good idea. I like to think I’m responsibly enjoying my vice and I spend more on it to reach higher quality, but I still recognize it’s a vice. Realistically I’d grumble but not change my habits because I don’t use it very often
You would be the exception to the rule. People would be pissed if it cut further into their purchasing power because of a high tax on alcohol. So while I applaud your willingness to take on a higher tax because you don't drink often, many others would not be so willing.
Smokers pay more in taxes and insurance premiums.
Not enough. I support discouraging use by greatly increasing taxes and insurance.
And yes, as someone who sometimes enjoys alcohol, that goes for all vice taxes. They need to be raised regularly with inflation or they need to be a percentage
Not enough, according to who? Smokers already pay more in taxes and everything I've read suggests they pay for more care than they actually receive, so how is it not enough?
Punitive actions like raising taxes and insurance aren't going to help addicted people get off of tobacco. That's just a tax on poor and middle class people.
Not enough because they’re not deterring people from smoking. While I understand it only punishes those already addicted, they’re kind of a lost cause. The priority needs to be preventing new victims. Someone who is not yet addicted is less likely to take it up if it’s more expensive
I get a choice what I can and can't do with my body? Sign me up I guess.
The thing is, if you smoke outdoors, you are violating people's right to live in an clean environment and breathe fresh air. I don't care if you fuck yourself up in your own house, but the moment smokers smoke outside of their own homes, they are messing with the liberties of all other citizens.
The ban doesn't apply to people's homes and what they do there?
You must really hate woodstoves and fire pits. Wait till you hear about internal combustion engines!
All of those things serve a purpose. What purpose does smoking tobacco have?
And those are banned in many places, except for engines, but there are changes in that department, too
Edit: I was wrong about the ban
Citation needed.
Good point, I found out to be wrong: https://emoffgrid.com/woodstove-ban/
They do try to minimize the air pollution by allowing only specific stoves and fuel, but there is no ban. Sorry for misinformation
Bruh, they're trying to make sure the next generation who never smoke, don't start smoking.
The same way they ensured our generation didn't have to deal with asbestos or lead pipes.
what about banning crimes? wouldn't making crimes illegal solve all our problems?
Definitely worked with drugs and alcohol.
? Alcohol consumption has been dropping consistently with each new generation...
That’s because of gradual shifts in culture and attitudes, not due to prohibition.
Prohibition has failed to effectively “ban” any drug, and often tends to encourage their usage and harm efforts to alleviate addiction.
Tobacco smoking is also declining in many nations in response to improved public health awareness and again cultural shifts. If those trends continue it could all but fade away naturally. Tobacco prohibition is arguably not necessary and could even become counterproductive.
You call prohibition, I call education and restriction
Raising the legal drinking age has definitely helped. While there’s still all too many teenagers drinking, my experience through my teens is that it’s a lit fewer than when I was a kid and harder to get.
— funny story - as an obviously older adult I got carded a couple years ago at a baseball game. They had a zero tolerance policy so I could not get a beer, despite going to multiple stands. Finally, partly out of amusement, I asked a newly legal intern less than half my age to buy beer for me
I’m not so sure. I’m in the UK, many parts of Europe have more liberal laws and attitudes towards alcohol than us, but it’s the British teens (and the British in general) infamously known for binge drinking.
Yeah I always used to prefer the more liberal policies (when it affected me) and wanted to raise my kids that way but here in the US you just can’t hide from binge drinking issues predominantly in teenagers. And that type of alcohol abuse seems to have decreased with the stricter laws (a later start to problem behavior gives some time to mature)
I don’t know what about those other cultures may cause different behavior patterns but it’s not simply a matter of us loosening up, nor of parents setting an example of moderation
Smokers are a drain on the medical system
I hate smoking, but where do we stop? Gamers who sit too long in a chair are an issue for the medical system, too. People who do no sports. People who do not sleep enough. Eating habits...
I mean that's the classic slippery slope fallacy you're employing here. The answer is, sometimes it's a more clear cut situation and other times it isn't.
But just because the next rung down your logical ladder is more of a gray area than smoking does not mean that smoking is now also as much of a gray area. That's not how this works.
This is the same style of argument people make when debating against gay marriage. Well if gay people can get married does that mean people can marry dogs now? Why not? Where do we draw the line?
Slippery slope arguments are usually fallacious, but I don't think this one is. A slippery slope argument is valid when thing A actually does enable thing B. Banning something because it's unhealthy does, in fact, enable further bans on other things by normalizing the notion that something being enticing but unhealthy is a sufficient reason to ban it.
Just look at all the things that have been criminalized at some point on the principle that they're dangerous to the people who use them, or just that they're vaguely bad for you. Cannabis, pornography, sex toys, gambling, even raw milk! And look at the specific things we know are next because they're already being taxed in some jurisdictions. Tobacco is actually a great example because it's going through the transition right now from being heavily taxed to being banned outright.
But this isn't clear cut; I tend to hear that smokers are a net plus for a country's finances because of the taxes on cigarettes and due to dying younger, before costlier chronic disease treatments and social care are required.
So yes, you should be asking where to draw the line.
A lot of the reasoning for banning smoking is second hand smoke. So far we’re drawing the line at when your bad havit affects someone else
Where I live (the US), smoking in most public places is already banned unless you're outdoors and far from the entrance to act building. Any additional ban would apply almost exclusively to people who smoke alone or in the presence of other smokers.
That's not been the argument where I live for a generation ban, because smoking in public is already banned - so the argument is all about the health of the people who can no longer buy cigarettes.
Cool so when do we start banning junk food? This isn't a slippery slope argument. I'm using the same logic you're using against tobacco, except sugar kills more people than tobacco does.
My intake of sugar has no affect on anyone else.
Food is a necessity: smoking is not
Obesity is also more complicated than just sugar. I can only go by personal anecdote here but I struggle with weight issues despite not eating much junk or overly processed food. A sugar tax would affect actual foods but not be sufficient nor even useful toward improving health
Your intake of sugar absolutely impacts other people when you end up with chronic health issues that other people have to help pay for.
Sugar doesn't just cause obesity, it also causes all kinds of cancer. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9775518/
And sugar is not a necessity. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/added-sugar-in-the-diet/
You will get by just fine without sugar in your diet. I didn't say we should ban food, I said we should ban sugar. You're struggling to show me why it's so different from tobacco.
The only real differences are 1) everyone loves sugar, so they'll make up a reason for the double standard and 2) public consumption doesn't immediately hurt other people. But then I never said I was opposed to banning smoking in public so that's actually irrelevant.
It's not as if there's some natural law obligating you to pay for anyone else's health issues. Your government is responsible for externalizing that private cost onto you and others, effectively subsidizing risk-taking and irresponsibility. If you don't like it, insist that people pay for their own health care and insurance at market rates, without subsidies.
No, I’m clearly stating that taxing sugar is neither clear cut nor is it sufficient to be in any way useful.
-- plenty of beneficial foods have sugar, and plenty of harmful foods do not
-- there’s lots of food with negative nutritional value but it’s not just sugar nor can it be clearly distinguished from other foods
— obesity is more a matter of habits and quantity than one ingredient .
Yeah it’s satisfying to demonize the hypothetical person who drinks two liter bottles of soda every day but that’s like cutting social programs because “welfare queens” or building a wall because “anchor babies”, or police needing military gear because “gangs”, or election results needing to be overturned because “fraud”. What they all have in common is they’re a target for outrage but not real or not significant.
I’d be all for a sugar tax if I thought it could be well defined or make a difference, especially if it could make a difference for me. However of all the people I know or have met struggling with weight issues, I don’t recall any being that hypothetical sugar queen, any with any significant sweets habit that would be affected, any that could in any way be changed with this approach
Depends statistically they die earlier and of relatively quick diseases. Combined with a life time of paying steep taxes to ingest poison, usually they tend to be a net positive for the state (coldly put).
Obesity is the number one drain on the medical system by 10 fold over smokers. It's the number one cause of death western nations now. Increased cancers/disease and chronic illness, plus a whole host of other things. Smokers are already disappearing because it's been a taboo in society for a long time now. The next generation isn't smoking anymore.
Also alcohol is on the rise as well.
I think vice taxes are a great tool to discourage behavior that affects public health but we need to increase them.
However it’s a lot harder to create a vice tax on food. It would be great to make poor food choices more expensive than better choices but I don’t see how you can draw clear lines, nor be effective. For example this obese person doesn’t eat much junk or overly processed food so even if you could clearly define junk food, a vice tax wouldn’t help
Ok, but what about those of us who enjoy pipe tobacco or cigars or any other form of smoking? It's not killing us like the 6 pack a day guy...so why are we included in the ban? 99% of obese people aren't eating healthy... they're drinking a 2 liter of coke a day and eating fast food non stop. They're the pack of day smokers...so you're logic would apply to them as well...
As someone who enjoys a good microbrew once in a while, or a smooth single malt, I would be affected by a higher alcohol tax but still think it’s a good idea. I like to think I’m responsibly enjoying my vice and I spend more on it to reach higher quality, but I still recognize it’s a vice. Realistically I’d grumble but not change my habits because I don’t use it very often
You would be the exception to the rule. People would be pissed if it cut further into their purchasing power because of a high tax on alcohol. So while I applaud your willingness to take on a higher tax because you don't drink often, many others would not be so willing.
Smokers pay more in taxes and insurance premiums.
Not enough. I support discouraging use by greatly increasing taxes and insurance.
And yes, as someone who sometimes enjoys alcohol, that goes for all vice taxes. They need to be raised regularly with inflation or they need to be a percentage
Not enough, according to who? Smokers already pay more in taxes and everything I've read suggests they pay for more care than they actually receive, so how is it not enough?
Punitive actions like raising taxes and insurance aren't going to help addicted people get off of tobacco. That's just a tax on poor and middle class people.
Not enough because they’re not deterring people from smoking. While I understand it only punishes those already addicted, they’re kind of a lost cause. The priority needs to be preventing new victims. Someone who is not yet addicted is less likely to take it up if it’s more expensive
Lol except women right? Oh and trans people.
Barking up the wrong tree with that one 🤣
It's amazing how you've imagined an entire political perspective from one comment. My goodness you have an imagination!