I know it's a meme, but is anyone actually sad for the fish? I thought we were terrified about what was happening to our food. If someone autopsied a downed cow and a bunch of toxic plastic shit spilled from their stomachs, we aren't thinking "poor cow ate all that plastic and died." We're worried about our food supply.
Lots of people are sad for the fish, but they're usually vegan
I'm sad for the fish because if they're gone I can't eat them, and they can't eat the tasty little fish, and they miss out on all that lovely tasty phytoplankton...
I'm sure a lion is gonna feel really bad for a human if they choke on plastic instead of getting to feed a lion.
Lions also don’t feel bad when they kill or rape each other, they are not a great role model for morals.
I'm sad for the fish. Imaging being forced into a massive pile of others just like you while being crushed by the weight of them and suffocating to death. It's fucked up
That has more to do with farming practices though, not plastic pollution.
The plastic pollution is also sad, but not as sad imo
Global catastrophy will never be as emotionally convincing as individual suffering. Why empathise with more when you can sympathise with less.
The fishing is sadder to me because it's intentionally causing unnecessary harm. I can see why accidental harm might be sadder though, and it is very sad either way. Systemic injustice and global catastrophe both need to be addressed though obviously
Consuming for survival is not unneccesary harm. All complex life takes life to continue living.
The vast majority of humans can thrive/be healthy on a vegan diet, therefore it's not consuming for survival. That's an excuse or ignorance (again, for the vast majority of humans, especially those who are reading this. There are always exceptions tho)
The vast majority of humans can thrive/be healthy on a vegan diet
I don't think so
the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)
Conveniently forgetting that the only reason a healthy nutritionally balanced vegan or vegetarian diet is even remotely possible is due to globalised trade and access to internationally produced and shipped vegetables.
To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally.
Here’s a “fun” fact, first world demand for fruit and grain variety has out priced primary sources of food for local populations in third world countries including things like lentils, quinoa, and avocados.
Or that nutritional deficiencies caused by incorrectly managed vegan diets are why doctors in Italy and Belgium are pushing for it to become illegal to feed children vegan diets, because the number of malnourished and dead children of vegan parents are rising in those nations.
Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn't inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation
To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally
while this doesn't go super in depth, it's a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/
none of those mean that the vast majority of humans can thrive or even be healthy on a vegan diet. and while the food itself may be cheap, it may lack convenience or cultural appropriateness, and therefore come with costs that are hidden at the checkout counter.
sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can't afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn't even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)
we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
I suspect we disagree about the relevant definition of "others"
Our food system hasn’t even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals
do you have a plan to accomplish that? until such a plan is implemented, there is not even a question whether it's moral to eat meat, seafood, dairy, or eggs: most people have no volition in the matter and no one can actually change that.
Vegans just casually creating a class system to value one life above others.
We have a name for the class of animals that eat grass, stay in packs for safety, and lack the individual skills necessary for individal survival. And even they are smart enough to be opportunistic omnivores.
The only species of animal stupid enough to consume against their needs and instincts are humans.
What? That's what you took from vegans saying "stop killing others unnecessarily"?
Carnists are literally putting out an idea that values someones sensory pleasure over the lives of others and then acting accordingly and killing by the billions each year.
The word you're looking for is omnivore, not carnist.
How many house plants have you killed not for the purpose of your own survival? Nobody can disregard life like a militant vegan.
Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷
To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
Disingenuous, ignorant, mentally deficient from years of choline deficiency. You're right. If the shoe fits.
Eating keeps things alive, only a vegan would think taking something out of its natural environment and subjecting it to worse living conditions and a shortened lifespan without the purpose of benefitting another lifeforms ability to survive as being less harmful.
We kill for survival, you kill for pleasure and ego.
Classist vegans only care for sentience, not life.
I don't get why meat eaters have to make cunt responses like this whenever someone expresses concern over the welfare of animals.
And I'm a meat eater
Because I loooooooove the taste of kippers. 🤤
Or... You're a cunt. Gottit
They didn't say anything unusual. Smoked kippers are delicious. We have some of the most amazing meat and fish on this planet and that's something to protect. Our food matters.
It is sad and gross in a way that's hard to pin down. I can find nature both beautiful and delicious at the same time.
I do have some level of sympathy for the fish but also recognize I'm a little more sympathetic to non-human life than most people. I can't bring myself to kill insects without a good reason (except ticks and mosquito) not even ants. Whenever my parents would cut down a tree on their property I grieve for the life of the trees lost just because my dad fell off one as a kid and has a subconscious hatred for them now (yes he even admitted to me this was the case) I even feel some guilt about cutting grass and mulching the occasional bee.
I've worked a seasonal job giving medical care to dairy cows, once you see just how poorly farmers treat them and how horrific their short lives are its hard not to feel bad for them. Farmers make standard animal cruelty cases look like mild neglect by comparison. The only blessing is that modern cows have been selectively bread to become so docile as to be almost braindead.
I'm cool with eating animals, the cycle of life and all that, but in trade we can at least try to give them decent lives that aren't so fucking awful from birth to death. Like it or not even fish have some level of intelligence and most likely emotional capacity. same with farm animals, trees, mushrooms, insects, and probably even the microorganisms to some degree. To think we are special and the only feeling lifeforms on the planet out o billions just cause the thinky thinky parts of our brain are a little bit bigger than most is just stupid and a very human-centric idea that strokes our own collective ego in a manifest destiny kind of way.
Yes I know I'm wierd but maybe the world needs a few people like me who care a little too much about non-human suffering.
You're not weird bro, you just have empathy. I agree with you
You don't have to feel bad for cutting grass. That's grass its entire evolutionary skitch, albeit naturally with being grazed instead of mechanically cut.
Grass survives cuts extremely well. Most of its mass is below ground. By thriving in areas that are frequently grazed / cut, it outcompetes other plants. Natural meadows without grazers quickly turn into forests. But tree saplings don't survive being eaten, so whenever there are grazers (or human cuts), grass outcompetes trees.
That might just be the weirdest turnaround. You can't hurt a fly, but you're okay with a cow being bolted through the brain because they're a bit tastier than mock meets?
Like, you can't be "sympathetic to animals" if you're paying an industry that mass slaughters them. Especially when you're only paying that out of simple preference. I sure hope you don't find humans tasty, because it sounds like you'll set aside all of your morals for a yummy lunch?
I know it's a meme, but is anyone actually sad for the fish? I thought we were terrified about what was happening to our food. If someone autopsied a downed cow and a bunch of toxic plastic shit spilled from their stomachs, we aren't thinking "poor cow ate all that plastic and died." We're worried about our food supply.
Lots of people are sad for the fish, but they're usually vegan
I'm sad for the fish because if they're gone I can't eat them, and they can't eat the tasty little fish, and they miss out on all that lovely tasty phytoplankton...
I'm sure a lion is gonna feel really bad for a human if they choke on plastic instead of getting to feed a lion.
Lions also don’t feel bad when they kill or rape each other, they are not a great role model for morals.
I'm sad for the fish. Imaging being forced into a massive pile of others just like you while being crushed by the weight of them and suffocating to death. It's fucked up
That has more to do with farming practices though, not plastic pollution.
The plastic pollution is also sad, but not as sad imo
Global catastrophy will never be as emotionally convincing as individual suffering. Why empathise with more when you can sympathise with less.
The fishing is sadder to me because it's intentionally causing unnecessary harm. I can see why accidental harm might be sadder though, and it is very sad either way. Systemic injustice and global catastrophe both need to be addressed though obviously
Consuming for survival is not unneccesary harm. All complex life takes life to continue living.
The vast majority of humans can thrive/be healthy on a vegan diet, therefore it's not consuming for survival. That's an excuse or ignorance (again, for the vast majority of humans, especially those who are reading this. There are always exceptions tho)
I don't think so
the scientific consensus is that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of human life. Plant staple foods are some of the cheapest foods around (rice, beans, grains)
Conveniently forgetting that the only reason a healthy nutritionally balanced vegan or vegetarian diet is even remotely possible is due to globalised trade and access to internationally produced and shipped vegetables.
To maintain a nutritionally complete vegan diet for an individual year round actually requires far more use of fossil fuels and directly released carbon emissions due to limited seasonality and local accessibility than a cow produces for the same nutrient density and complexity locally.
Here’s a “fun” fact, first world demand for fruit and grain variety has out priced primary sources of food for local populations in third world countries including things like lentils, quinoa, and avocados.
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa
Or that nutritional deficiencies caused by incorrectly managed vegan diets are why doctors in Italy and Belgium are pushing for it to become illegal to feed children vegan diets, because the number of malnourished and dead children of vegan parents are rising in those nations.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/
Capacity is not the same as actuality.
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands did you read the editors note at the bottom?
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html the main thrust of the article is buy more locally grown food, grow your own food? I agree with that lol. To go a step further, community gardens are good!
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa yeah I agree eat less quinoa and asparagus. See also the footnote
Those things are failures of our food system, and problems we could and should solve. The cool thing about eating plants is it doesn't inherently require exploiting other sentient beings, but it does still happen unfortunately. That goes for animal ag too tho, and animal agriculture inherently depends on the exploitation
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619 last two paragraphs
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/16/parents-raise-children-vegans-should-prosecuted-say-belgian/ the vegans in that post make good points. Obviously negligent parents are a problem, vegan or no
did I miss the source on this?
Here's a source for you to read, I read the ones you linked https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-023-00795-w
while this doesn't go super in depth, it's a counterpoint to the idea that veganism (And definitely vegetarianism) is only possible with global trade. https://www.iamgoingvegan.com/vegan-cultures/
Tell that to the 12.8% of Americans that have food insecurity without the struggle of attempting veganism. https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/ag-and-food-statistics-charting-the-essentials/food-security-and-nutrition-assistance/
none of those mean that the vast majority of humans can thrive or even be healthy on a vegan diet. and while the food itself may be cheap, it may lack convenience or cultural appropriateness, and therefore come with costs that are hidden at the checkout counter.
sure, there are a lot of factors that would make it difficult. If most people can't afford to be vegan (for monetary or other cost reasons especially) that reflects a failure of our food system. Our food system hasn't even gotten to the point of ensuring nobody goes hungry, we should be using our cropland to feed humans not other animals (look up how much of our crops go to livestock)
we should end the biggest problems first, and start with ending factory farms, but we should also remember that culture is not a good reason to hurt others
I suspect we disagree about the relevant definition of "others"
do you have a plan to accomplish that? until such a plan is implemented, there is not even a question whether it's moral to eat meat, seafood, dairy, or eggs: most people have no volition in the matter and no one can actually change that.
it's not clear either that this is "the biggest problem" or, if it is, that the best method of solving our ecological woes is to attack it first.
Vegans just casually creating a class system to value one life above others.
We have a name for the class of animals that eat grass, stay in packs for safety, and lack the individual skills necessary for individal survival. And even they are smart enough to be opportunistic omnivores.
The only species of animal stupid enough to consume against their needs and instincts are humans.
What? That's what you took from vegans saying "stop killing others unnecessarily"?
Carnists are literally putting out an idea that values someones sensory pleasure over the lives of others and then acting accordingly and killing by the billions each year.
The word you're looking for is omnivore, not carnist.
How many house plants have you killed not for the purpose of your own survival? Nobody can disregard life like a militant vegan.
Carnist, omnivore, speciesist. If the shoe fits 🤷
To the best of my knowledge plants are not sentient. If they were I would take much better care of houseplants and still be vegan because eating other animals still kills way more plants (google trophic levels)
Disingenuous, ignorant, mentally deficient from years of choline deficiency. You're right. If the shoe fits.
Eating keeps things alive, only a vegan would think taking something out of its natural environment and subjecting it to worse living conditions and a shortened lifespan without the purpose of benefitting another lifeforms ability to survive as being less harmful.
We kill for survival, you kill for pleasure and ego.
Classist vegans only care for sentience, not life.
this cannot be proven, but even if it's true, it doesn't matter. sentience is an arbitrary charcteristic on which to base your diet.
Mmmmm smoked kippers. 🤤
I don't get why meat eaters have to make cunt responses like this whenever someone expresses concern over the welfare of animals. And I'm a meat eater
Because I loooooooove the taste of kippers. 🤤
Or... You're a cunt. Gottit
They didn't say anything unusual. Smoked kippers are delicious. We have some of the most amazing meat and fish on this planet and that's something to protect. Our food matters.
Lol OK.
It is sad and gross in a way that's hard to pin down. I can find nature both beautiful and delicious at the same time.
I do have some level of sympathy for the fish but also recognize I'm a little more sympathetic to non-human life than most people. I can't bring myself to kill insects without a good reason (except ticks and mosquito) not even ants. Whenever my parents would cut down a tree on their property I grieve for the life of the trees lost just because my dad fell off one as a kid and has a subconscious hatred for them now (yes he even admitted to me this was the case) I even feel some guilt about cutting grass and mulching the occasional bee.
I've worked a seasonal job giving medical care to dairy cows, once you see just how poorly farmers treat them and how horrific their short lives are its hard not to feel bad for them. Farmers make standard animal cruelty cases look like mild neglect by comparison. The only blessing is that modern cows have been selectively bread to become so docile as to be almost braindead.
I'm cool with eating animals, the cycle of life and all that, but in trade we can at least try to give them decent lives that aren't so fucking awful from birth to death. Like it or not even fish have some level of intelligence and most likely emotional capacity. same with farm animals, trees, mushrooms, insects, and probably even the microorganisms to some degree. To think we are special and the only feeling lifeforms on the planet out o billions just cause the thinky thinky parts of our brain are a little bit bigger than most is just stupid and a very human-centric idea that strokes our own collective ego in a manifest destiny kind of way.
Yes I know I'm wierd but maybe the world needs a few people like me who care a little too much about non-human suffering.
You're not weird bro, you just have empathy. I agree with you
You don't have to feel bad for cutting grass. That's grass its entire evolutionary skitch, albeit naturally with being grazed instead of mechanically cut.
Grass survives cuts extremely well. Most of its mass is below ground. By thriving in areas that are frequently grazed / cut, it outcompetes other plants. Natural meadows without grazers quickly turn into forests. But tree saplings don't survive being eaten, so whenever there are grazers (or human cuts), grass outcompetes trees.
That might just be the weirdest turnaround. You can't hurt a fly, but you're okay with a cow being bolted through the brain because they're a bit tastier than mock meets?
Like, you can't be "sympathetic to animals" if you're paying an industry that mass slaughters them. Especially when you're only paying that out of simple preference. I sure hope you don't find humans tasty, because it sounds like you'll set aside all of your morals for a yummy lunch?