I love all the comments like "Biden isn't being tough enough on Israel! Biden isn't stopping the genocide!"
Besides the fact that people are asking Biden to do something that directly hurts US foreign policy interests.....
Do they REALLY think that the Republican party is on the side of stopping brown people dying? Biden in office is probably the most gentle response Palestine is going to get for 10/7. Republicans are frothing at the mouth to boost JDAM and Paveway kit sales.
If preventing a genocide is hurting "foreign policy interests", then those interests are shite.
exactly what i was thinking.
if this is the lesser of two evils, you probably have reached evil long ago.
Yep they keep saying lesser of two evils while the options get more and more evil despite claiming "incremental progress". Moderates are completely disconnected from reality or they're just too afraid to actually push for something better.
The problem is with Trump, particularly, there's good reason to be afraid.
"We want to punish the democrats for supporting Israel, so we are going to let Trump win"
GOP proceeds to double down on oppressive wars, no improvement for Gaza. Further, you get a government full of leaders that, in the wake of losing in 2020, openly pondered ways of just rigging the election so they don't have to get votes to win anymore. You had laws proposed in GOP states to declare the legislature could pick whatever electors they wanted ignoring their voters. You had people running for non-partisan election administration positions promising they'll make sure Republicans win, no matter what. They actively tried to send fake electors that particular cycle, even without any legal backing.
So, in at least one scenario, congratulations, you successfully admonished Biden for his misbehavior, and now, we have at least as bad misbehavior, and maybe some unwinding of democracy to make sure we never get to influence foreign policy ever again.
The problem is with Trump, particularly, there’s good reason to be afraid.
I agree. The threat of Trump seems like a bigger risk to me than the risks introduced by stopping the supply of arms to Israel or vowing to veto any attempts to block a rail strike. But apparently moderates and Joe Biden would prefer to avoid those risks and instead gamble they can win the general election anyway. But what do I know? I'm not part of the majority voting bloc so I'm not responsible for what happens.
I’m not part of the majority voting bloc so I’m not responsible for what happens.
I mean, to the extent any voter is "responsible" for what happens, if you abstain from voting or explicitly vote for a candidate you know is going to lose to make a point, then you have some responsibility for the result, and thus it better be a result you reasonably expect to live with. If you think Trump isn't any worse than Biden, then voting for the candidate you like best, their chances be damned makes sense. If you sincerely think Trump is a risk that can't be tolerated, then when general election comes around, you unfortunately should probably vote for Biden.
I personally think Trump is too problematic to risk his victory on principle. Any other presidential contest I can recall, sure, punish the mainstream by voting third party, it's not like any of the presidential candidates were that much worse than the others. If somehow Haley became the republican frontrunner, by all means, I might not prefer her, but I don't have a dire sense of dread about her. She wouldn't be a better choice than Biden on Gaza, but at least your vote was probably clearly seen to be one he forfeited because of his stance. It's just a matter of how important it is to vote against a particular candidate as to whether you have the comfortable option of voting for your favorite versus voting against an unfavored candidate.
I mean, to the extent any voter is “responsible” for what happens, if you abstain from voting or explicitly vote for a candidate you know is going to lose to make a point, then you have some responsibility for the result
The vote of a majority of people in the country will have no impact on the result of the election whatsoever. Most of us don't live in the sliver of electorally competitive states.
If you live in Georgia, you should be deeply pondering the very real consequences of a protest vote, but this idea that every voter is responsible is just not how our system works.
I mean, to the extent any voter is “responsible” for what happens
Sure. But the bulk of the responsibility rests on the moderates as they are the majority voting bloc.
I'll accept my grain of responsibility as someone from an, apparently irrelevant, minority wing.
Quick question, can you explain to me how it wasn't evil to burn babies in their cribs, rape daughters in front of mothers, and behead fathers in front of sons? Cause I really can't see it any other way after 10/7.
the world isnt black and white and one evil can't justify another, even greater evil. its a convenient excuse, but its good to notice oppression has the habit of creating more of the twisted people you speak of.
the world isn't black and white
Evil
Incredible that this amount of cognitive dissonance can fit into one sentence.
motherfucker is tryna justify genocide dude, thats not a hill to die on.
I hate genocide, like the genocide that Hamas committed on 10/7.
i'm sure you are sadder for the couple israeli dead by hamas than the ones killed by the idf themselves.
and i'm guessing the tens of thousands dead and many more expelled by us bombs are not people to you.
You sure seem to put a lot of words in my mouth for someone who believes that a genocide wasn't perpetrated on 10/7.
most of the people you killed are children 👉👌
When you crossed the border on 10/7 and murdered Israeli babies in their cribs, did you realize that you were calling down a firestorm on your Hamas brothers?
when you believed such stupid conspiracy theory, did you consider they just wanted to justify genocide?
oh i guess thats the excuse you wanted all along to murder woman and children in gaza.
Supporting Israel's genocide of Palestinians is directly harming the US' foreign policy interests.
The entire point of Israel’s genocide in the end is to perpetuate war and conflict so rightwing nutjobs like Netanyahu can retain power by killing people and claiming they are keeping people safe instead of doing actual leadership work and passing effective policy to save people.
In that sense Israel’s genocide makes the entire world less safe by empowering strongman leaders like this.
The foreign policy of most on the right is basically "Turn it all to glass." Which is terrifying.
You're thinking of ruzzia lmao.
Are you seriously incapable of viewing Biden's actions outside of a lens related to the upcoming election?
It's almost as though some people are incapable of holding two thought in their head at the same time: the RNC is absolutely fascist and pro-genocide, and Biden is doing the wrong thing in this specific situation and should be criticized for it. If all criticism of a president must stop, you live in a dictatorship. This one just happens to be a two party dictatorship where one awful party is kept from criticism by the threat of the other being even worse.
Literally everything every politician does is towards their next re-election. Literally everything. It's ignorant to think otherwise.
Part of representing their constituents is to satisfy the most voters to vote for them in the future. It's not a hard concept.
This is a total non-sequitur, you don't seem to understand the conversation you're involved in and nothing about your other responses suggests there might be an intelligent conversation to be had were it corrected.
Yet you seem unable to debate the point. Hmmm.
How does that even make sense? GOP being worse doesn't mean that Biden is doing a great job. He's bloody well FUNDING and ARMING the genocidal IDF. That there is a worse option doesn't make Biden's actions in any way "good".
I immediately stop listening to anyone that is calling the current situation genocide. No better way to tell me that your opinion is worthless than to use words incorrectly.
Ah so that's why you're a zionists shill, you only listen to israel
The UN Convention on Genocide defines it like this:
b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
So, point for point, the only one Israel hasn't done in Gaza is "e". But to be clear, you don't have to hit all 5 to be a genocide, just one is enough. Russia is hitting all 5 in Ukraine.
Yes exactly, the slaughter on 10/7 WAS genocide.
A repressed people cannot commit genocide against their repressors.
Great, so Israel can't commit genocide against Palestinians due to 80 years of oppression through terrorist attacks?
I'd hardly call what the Palestinians do "oppression", they aren't in a position to oppress anyone.
I'd hardly call what the Israelis do "oppression", they aren't in a position to oppress anyone.
Tell that to the Palestenians they've ghettoized for 30 years.
Tell that to the Israelis they've terrorized for 80 years.
Besides the fact that people are asking Biden to do something that directly hurts US foreign policy interests…
Why would enabling the genocide of Palestinians benefit US foreign policy?
Also, isn't our current beef with Yemen and the 96% drop off in Suez traffic a direct result of Israel's War in Gaza? Isn't keeping the Suez open to traffic pursuant to US foreign policy?
Do they REALLY think that the Republican party is on the side of stopping brown people dying?
I think that America is a Fascist Nation enabling the will of some of the most deranged and brutal regimes in human history. Between the Israelis, the Saudis, the Indian Hinduvistas, and the Duterte/Marcos cartel in the Philippians, we've got - bare minimum - four Fascist regional governments that we are falling over ourselves to help perpetuate atrocities of nightmarish proportions.
Republicans and Democrats seem to be in alignment in supporting all of these horrifying campaigns of mass slaughter. If this is the future of American politics, our government deserves to fail and I pray that our failed state is wiped from the face of the Earth.
The US does not negotiate with terrorists. The US is not going to abandon it's interests just because some anti-semitic people don't like the US supporting Israel. It is directly contrary to the US foreign policy interests because it signals that the US is willing to abandon allies in the face of attack. Imagine if the US had withdrawn support from Israel after 9/11, an attack which was specifically in retaliation for US support of Israel.
There is no evidence that hard-line policies reduce terrorism or even discourage political extremists. It is a given that negotiation with both types of political extremist should be undertaken, with terrorists requiring very special handling. Examples of two scenarios of airplane hijackings are given with the advice that the terrorist will be a catalyst for tragedy if a misstep is made in negotiations. This article does not present solutions, but raises awareness of the difficulties involved and the need for help, even in the realm of the exotic, along with qualified special consultants being sought to offer advice.
This is the worst case scenario for Gazans and people who know them. They don't care about Biden's infrastructure record or Trump's position on NATO.
No, worst case scenario involves nukes.
To you. For them they've already lost entire branches of their extended families. A figurative nuke already went off for them.
Oh dear, have they done anything to stop 20 years of build-up of tunnels and weapons underneath them?
Have you done anything to stop your government from building military bases?
Why would I try to stop something that I fully support? Last time I checked, the US doesn't have a policy of slaughtering civilians.
Lol you should check what we consider to be acceptable "collateral" casualties.
It's the exact same definition in the Geneva convention: proportional military casualties.
But feel free to simp for dictatorships that literally execute people for thought crime.
I'm not defending any government. I'm drawing a line between you and the Gazans. They couldn't stop Hamas from building a military base anymore than you can stop the US Government from doing so. Putting that burden on their shoulders and the shoulders of their American relatives is insane at the least.
You're right, no one has responsibility for anything. We should do away with all government. It just holds back the anarchy of the masses. Let's get rid of government and shitty things they invent like the Geneva conventions and the UN and NATO. Who needs all that bs. No one should be able to stand up to the mighty HAMAS.
I love all the comments like "Biden isn't being tough enough on Israel! Biden isn't stopping the genocide!"
Besides the fact that people are asking Biden to do something that directly hurts US foreign policy interests.....
Do they REALLY think that the Republican party is on the side of stopping brown people dying? Biden in office is probably the most gentle response Palestine is going to get for 10/7. Republicans are frothing at the mouth to boost JDAM and Paveway kit sales.
If preventing a genocide is hurting "foreign policy interests", then those interests are shite.
exactly what i was thinking.
if this is the lesser of two evils, you probably have reached evil long ago.
Yep they keep saying lesser of two evils while the options get more and more evil despite claiming "incremental progress". Moderates are completely disconnected from reality or they're just too afraid to actually push for something better.
The problem is with Trump, particularly, there's good reason to be afraid.
"We want to punish the democrats for supporting Israel, so we are going to let Trump win"
GOP proceeds to double down on oppressive wars, no improvement for Gaza. Further, you get a government full of leaders that, in the wake of losing in 2020, openly pondered ways of just rigging the election so they don't have to get votes to win anymore. You had laws proposed in GOP states to declare the legislature could pick whatever electors they wanted ignoring their voters. You had people running for non-partisan election administration positions promising they'll make sure Republicans win, no matter what. They actively tried to send fake electors that particular cycle, even without any legal backing.
So, in at least one scenario, congratulations, you successfully admonished Biden for his misbehavior, and now, we have at least as bad misbehavior, and maybe some unwinding of democracy to make sure we never get to influence foreign policy ever again.
I agree. The threat of Trump seems like a bigger risk to me than the risks introduced by stopping the supply of arms to Israel or vowing to veto any attempts to block a rail strike. But apparently moderates and Joe Biden would prefer to avoid those risks and instead gamble they can win the general election anyway. But what do I know? I'm not part of the majority voting bloc so I'm not responsible for what happens.
I mean, to the extent any voter is "responsible" for what happens, if you abstain from voting or explicitly vote for a candidate you know is going to lose to make a point, then you have some responsibility for the result, and thus it better be a result you reasonably expect to live with. If you think Trump isn't any worse than Biden, then voting for the candidate you like best, their chances be damned makes sense. If you sincerely think Trump is a risk that can't be tolerated, then when general election comes around, you unfortunately should probably vote for Biden.
I personally think Trump is too problematic to risk his victory on principle. Any other presidential contest I can recall, sure, punish the mainstream by voting third party, it's not like any of the presidential candidates were that much worse than the others. If somehow Haley became the republican frontrunner, by all means, I might not prefer her, but I don't have a dire sense of dread about her. She wouldn't be a better choice than Biden on Gaza, but at least your vote was probably clearly seen to be one he forfeited because of his stance. It's just a matter of how important it is to vote against a particular candidate as to whether you have the comfortable option of voting for your favorite versus voting against an unfavored candidate.
The vote of a majority of people in the country will have no impact on the result of the election whatsoever. Most of us don't live in the sliver of electorally competitive states.
If you live in Georgia, you should be deeply pondering the very real consequences of a protest vote, but this idea that every voter is responsible is just not how our system works.
Sure. But the bulk of the responsibility rests on the moderates as they are the majority voting bloc.
I'll accept my grain of responsibility as someone from an, apparently irrelevant, minority wing.
Quick question, can you explain to me how it wasn't evil to burn babies in their cribs, rape daughters in front of mothers, and behead fathers in front of sons? Cause I really can't see it any other way after 10/7.
the world isnt black and white and one evil can't justify another, even greater evil. its a convenient excuse, but its good to notice oppression has the habit of creating more of the twisted people you speak of.
Incredible that this amount of cognitive dissonance can fit into one sentence.
motherfucker is tryna justify genocide dude, thats not a hill to die on.
I hate genocide, like the genocide that Hamas committed on 10/7.
i'm sure you are sadder for the couple israeli dead by hamas than the ones killed by the idf themselves.
and i'm guessing the tens of thousands dead and many more expelled by us bombs are not people to you.
You sure seem to put a lot of words in my mouth for someone who believes that a genocide wasn't perpetrated on 10/7.
most of the people you killed are children 👉👌
When you crossed the border on 10/7 and murdered Israeli babies in their cribs, did you realize that you were calling down a firestorm on your Hamas brothers?
when you believed such stupid conspiracy theory, did you consider they just wanted to justify genocide?
oh i guess thats the excuse you wanted all along to murder woman and children in gaza.
Supporting Israel's genocide of Palestinians is directly harming the US' foreign policy interests.
The entire point of Israel’s genocide in the end is to perpetuate war and conflict so rightwing nutjobs like Netanyahu can retain power by killing people and claiming they are keeping people safe instead of doing actual leadership work and passing effective policy to save people.
In that sense Israel’s genocide makes the entire world less safe by empowering strongman leaders like this.
The foreign policy of most on the right is basically "Turn it all to glass." Which is terrifying.
You're thinking of ruzzia lmao.
Are you seriously incapable of viewing Biden's actions outside of a lens related to the upcoming election?
It's almost as though some people are incapable of holding two thought in their head at the same time: the RNC is absolutely fascist and pro-genocide, and Biden is doing the wrong thing in this specific situation and should be criticized for it. If all criticism of a president must stop, you live in a dictatorship. This one just happens to be a two party dictatorship where one awful party is kept from criticism by the threat of the other being even worse.
Literally everything every politician does is towards their next re-election. Literally everything. It's ignorant to think otherwise.
Part of representing their constituents is to satisfy the most voters to vote for them in the future. It's not a hard concept.
This is a total non-sequitur, you don't seem to understand the conversation you're involved in and nothing about your other responses suggests there might be an intelligent conversation to be had were it corrected.
Yet you seem unable to debate the point. Hmmm.
How does that even make sense? GOP being worse doesn't mean that Biden is doing a great job. He's bloody well FUNDING and ARMING the genocidal IDF. That there is a worse option doesn't make Biden's actions in any way "good".
I immediately stop listening to anyone that is calling the current situation genocide. No better way to tell me that your opinion is worthless than to use words incorrectly.
Ah so that's why you're a zionists shill, you only listen to israel
The UN Convention on Genocide defines it like this:
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml
"a) Killing members of the group;
b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
So, point for point, the only one Israel hasn't done in Gaza is "e". But to be clear, you don't have to hit all 5 to be a genocide, just one is enough. Russia is hitting all 5 in Ukraine.
Yes exactly, the slaughter on 10/7 WAS genocide.
A repressed people cannot commit genocide against their repressors.
See:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nat_Turner's_slave_rebellion
Great, so Israel can't commit genocide against Palestinians due to 80 years of oppression through terrorist attacks?
I'd hardly call what the Palestinians do "oppression", they aren't in a position to oppress anyone.
I'd hardly call what the Israelis do "oppression", they aren't in a position to oppress anyone.
Tell that to the Palestenians they've ghettoized for 30 years.
Tell that to the Israelis they've terrorized for 80 years.
Why would enabling the genocide of Palestinians benefit US foreign policy?
Also, isn't our current beef with Yemen and the 96% drop off in Suez traffic a direct result of Israel's War in Gaza? Isn't keeping the Suez open to traffic pursuant to US foreign policy?
I think that America is a Fascist Nation enabling the will of some of the most deranged and brutal regimes in human history. Between the Israelis, the Saudis, the Indian Hinduvistas, and the Duterte/Marcos cartel in the Philippians, we've got - bare minimum - four Fascist regional governments that we are falling over ourselves to help perpetuate atrocities of nightmarish proportions.
Republicans and Democrats seem to be in alignment in supporting all of these horrifying campaigns of mass slaughter. If this is the future of American politics, our government deserves to fail and I pray that our failed state is wiped from the face of the Earth.
The US does not negotiate with terrorists. The US is not going to abandon it's interests just because some anti-semitic people don't like the US supporting Israel. It is directly contrary to the US foreign policy interests because it signals that the US is willing to abandon allies in the face of attack. Imagine if the US had withdrawn support from Israel after 9/11, an attack which was specifically in retaliation for US support of Israel.
Government Negotiations with Terrorists: US Edition
Also:
Negotiating with Terrorists, from the Journal of Police Negotiation, 2001
This is the worst case scenario for Gazans and people who know them. They don't care about Biden's infrastructure record or Trump's position on NATO.
No, worst case scenario involves nukes.
To you. For them they've already lost entire branches of their extended families. A figurative nuke already went off for them.
Oh dear, have they done anything to stop 20 years of build-up of tunnels and weapons underneath them?
Have you done anything to stop your government from building military bases?
Why would I try to stop something that I fully support? Last time I checked, the US doesn't have a policy of slaughtering civilians.
Lol you should check what we consider to be acceptable "collateral" casualties.
It's the exact same definition in the Geneva convention: proportional military casualties.
But feel free to simp for dictatorships that literally execute people for thought crime.
I'm not defending any government. I'm drawing a line between you and the Gazans. They couldn't stop Hamas from building a military base anymore than you can stop the US Government from doing so. Putting that burden on their shoulders and the shoulders of their American relatives is insane at the least.
You're right, no one has responsibility for anything. We should do away with all government. It just holds back the anarchy of the masses. Let's get rid of government and shitty things they invent like the Geneva conventions and the UN and NATO. Who needs all that bs. No one should be able to stand up to the mighty HAMAS.
Wow you killed that straw man good.
Does it ever get tiring defending terrorism?
The irony of those hicktards...