I’m not sure how to feel about the level of support shown for Bushnell, when previous self-immolators have been thoroughly ignored.
Part of me is glad that his death is not in vain, and his friends and family can take some solace in that fact.
But part of me is terrified that 20 more people are going to try similar stunts and achieve… less-than-nothing.
There are already too many martyrs. We need agitators. You can’t agitate if you’re dead or otherwise removed.
Please: If you’re considering Aaron Bushnell an inspiration, be inspired by the fact that he did something unusual, not that he did something self-destructive. Go throw some soup on a Van Gogh instead.
You are correct... Bushnell isn't even the first USian to self-immolate as a form of protest this decade - the others barely made the news.
While I can't bring myself to criticise people like Bushnell (for obvious reasons), I also cannot endorse it. I don't want to die for a cause - I want to make the fascists die for theirs.
I don’t want to die for a cause - I want to make the fascists die for theirs.
Honestly this is one of the best quotables I've found on the internet this year. Permission to steal?
It's a paraphrase from a Patton quote. I don't have the exact quote readily available, but the gist is, "The objective of war isn't to die for one's country, but to make some other poor bastard die for his."
Except for that last part. Don't waste food. And don't destroy unique stuff.(Yes, the van Gogh was protected by glass iirc, but most other paintings aren't) Plenty of ways to get attention without doing irreversible damage to art.
(Yes, the van Gogh was protected by glass iirc, but most other paintings aren’t)
The van Gogh was chosen specifically because it was protected by glass.
You apparently have way too much faith in copycats and people without critical-thinking skills...
I worry about this too. I don't like self immolation as a form of protest. Normally I'd say it accomplishes nothing, but in this case it did draw a lot of attention -- that by no means though should be an endorsement for others to do this. We can find better, equally effective ways to organize. There's already enough senseless death going on.
I appreciate his gesture, but I wish he hadn't done it. I wish he was alive.
Always love to see Beau's content linked in the wild. Good stuff.
previous self-immolators have been thoroughly ignored
Arguably a self imolator ended the war in Vietnam. He absolutely got the ball rolling.
That happened in 1963. The war only got worse and went on 10 more years.
Yep. It took quite a few for the reality of the war to kick in for most people.
Arguably a self imolator ended the war in Vietnam.
No, he fucking didn't. The Vietnamese breaking the US military through the use of force ended the war in Vietnam.
No. The Vietnamese did not "break" the US military.
We got tired of being there, though.
I hate to be the one to break it to you... but the Vietnamese broke the US military. Swallow all the cope the propagandists have been spoon-feeding you about this since the 70s - it doesn't change anything.
What do you mean by "broke"?
I'm quite literally in a class on the Vietnam War this semester, writing a paper about how ineffective our policy of bombing an agrarian society that only needed to supply its forces 50 tons of supplies a day.
Please, elaborate.
ineffective our policy of bombing an agrarian society
"Ineffective" at what? The indiscriminate carnage that the US visited on SE Asia from the air was possibly the most effective mass-slaughter campaign ever perpetrated by a colonialist power - it was even more effective than the colonialist slaughter Germany visited on eastern Europe and the Soviet Union during WW2.
So no... as far as the tenets of colonialist warfare is concerned, it was perfectly effective.
At stopping supplies and people from moving south?
So, our goal was genocide? I'm not saying we were the good guys, but clearly we weren't comparable to the fucking Nazis eastern campaign.
You still didn't answer what it meant to break the US military.
but clearly we weren’t comparable to the fucking Nazis
Actually, the US actions in SE Asia is very comparable to what Germany and it's allies did in eastern Europe and Russia... not even the Nazis attempted to use chemical warfare to starve their victim population into submission - the US did.
What the Nazis did was nothing unique - it has been standard fare for colonialist powers long before WW2 happened, and it was stadard fare for the US both before and during the (so-called) "Cold War." The only reason the Nazis became infamous for it was because they literally perpetrated it on the (so-called) "civilized" world's doorstep on people that looked "white."
You still didn’t answer what it meant to break the US military.
TLDR - “Our Army that now remains in Vietnam is in a state approaching collapse, with individual units avoiding or having refused combat, murdering their officers, drug-ridden, and dispirited where not near-mutinous.”
What the Nazis did was nothing unique - it has been standard fare for colonialist powers long before WW2 happened, and it was stadard fare for the US both before and during the (so-called) “Cold War.”
Homie, I think you should learn some more about the eastern front.
The United States wasn't on an ethnic cleansing campaign in Indochina. The Nazi's were on an ethnic cleansing campaign.
TLDR - “Our Army that now remains in Vietnam is in a state approaching collapse, with individual units avoiding or having refused combat, murdering their officers, drug-ridden, and dispirited where not near-mutinous.”
Which had had which major defeats associated with it?
Homie,
We are not friends.
You mean like this? Oops, sorry... wrong war. It's not my fault - when you get into the grisly details they all start looking the same.
The United States wasn’t on an ethnic cleansing campaign
Ooooh... you completely got me there. The millions dead in the Congo thanks to Belgium exploitation? Perfectly okay because it wasn't a clear-cut case of "ethnic cleansing." The millions starved to death in Bengal due to British colonialist policies during WW2? Perfectly fine because it wasn't a clear-cut case of "ethnic cleansing."
If only Hitler had you around to handle his PR for him, eh?
Which had had which major defeats associated with it?
I'm just going to go ahead and assume it's also a complete mystery to you why the vaunted US military failed so abysmally in Afghanistan, eh?
It's only a mystery to you and your ilk - why do you think that is?
My Lai was not an ethnic cleansing campaign. It was not directed by the White House or the Pentagon. It was a massacre that had an attempted cover up.
Is it really that hard to understand that something can be illegal, unethical, and immoral, and not be ethnic cleansing?
British colonialist policies during WW2
’m just going to go ahead and assume it’s also a complete mystery to you why the vaunted US military failed so abysmally in Afghanistan, eh?
This discussion is on vietnam, but cool.
My Lai was not an ethnic cleansing
Oh... you didn't get this the first time around. Here... let me help you along and repost it for you because you sure look like this is going to take you a lot of effort to get.
Ooooh… you completely got me there. The millions dead in the Congo thanks to Belgium exploitation? Perfectly okay because it wasn’t a clear-cut case of “ethnic cleansing.” The millions starved to death in Bengal due to British colonialist policies during WW2? Perfectly fine because it wasn’t a clear-cut case of “ethnic cleansing.”
Also, why bring up My Lai? There was nothing unique about My Lai - except for the fact that it ended up being reported in the US media because one chopper crew decided to grow a backbone and put a stop to it (for once). For the US military in Vietnam, My Lai was Tuesday.
This discussion is on vietnam
So do tell... how does a military end up being completely broken by a (supposedly) "inferior" enemy without actually having lost any decisive battles?
I'd hate to think what would have actually happened if the US had lost a clear-cut battle in Vietnam - the entire US may just have imploded in on itself due to shock.
I’m not sure how to feel about the level of support shown for Bushnell, when previous self-immolators have been thoroughly ignored.
Part of me is glad that his death is not in vain, and his friends and family can take some solace in that fact.
But part of me is terrified that 20 more people are going to try similar stunts and achieve… less-than-nothing.
There are already too many martyrs. We need agitators. You can’t agitate if you’re dead or otherwise removed.
Please: If you’re considering Aaron Bushnell an inspiration, be inspired by the fact that he did something unusual, not that he did something self-destructive. Go throw some soup on a Van Gogh instead.
You are correct... Bushnell isn't even the first USian to self-immolate as a form of protest this decade - the others barely made the news.
While I can't bring myself to criticise people like Bushnell (for obvious reasons), I also cannot endorse it. I don't want to die for a cause - I want to make the fascists die for theirs.
Honestly this is one of the best quotables I've found on the internet this year. Permission to steal?
It's a paraphrase from a Patton quote. I don't have the exact quote readily available, but the gist is, "The objective of war isn't to die for one's country, but to make some other poor bastard die for his."
Except for that last part. Don't waste food. And don't destroy unique stuff.(Yes, the van Gogh was protected by glass iirc, but most other paintings aren't) Plenty of ways to get attention without doing irreversible damage to art.
The van Gogh was chosen specifically because it was protected by glass.
You apparently have way too much faith in copycats and people without critical-thinking skills...
I worry about this too. I don't like self immolation as a form of protest. Normally I'd say it accomplishes nothing, but in this case it did draw a lot of attention -- that by no means though should be an endorsement for others to do this. We can find better, equally effective ways to organize. There's already enough senseless death going on.
I appreciate his gesture, but I wish he hadn't done it. I wish he was alive.
Always love to see Beau's content linked in the wild. Good stuff.
Arguably a self imolator ended the war in Vietnam. He absolutely got the ball rolling.
That happened in 1963. The war only got worse and went on 10 more years.
Yep. It took quite a few for the reality of the war to kick in for most people.
No, he fucking didn't. The Vietnamese breaking the US military through the use of force ended the war in Vietnam.
No. The Vietnamese did not "break" the US military. We got tired of being there, though.
I hate to be the one to break it to you... but the Vietnamese broke the US military. Swallow all the cope the propagandists have been spoon-feeding you about this since the 70s - it doesn't change anything.
What do you mean by "broke"? I'm quite literally in a class on the Vietnam War this semester, writing a paper about how ineffective our policy of bombing an agrarian society that only needed to supply its forces 50 tons of supplies a day.
Please, elaborate.
"Ineffective" at what? The indiscriminate carnage that the US visited on SE Asia from the air was possibly the most effective mass-slaughter campaign ever perpetrated by a colonialist power - it was even more effective than the colonialist slaughter Germany visited on eastern Europe and the Soviet Union during WW2.
So no... as far as the tenets of colonialist warfare is concerned, it was perfectly effective.
At stopping supplies and people from moving south?
So, our goal was genocide? I'm not saying we were the good guys, but clearly we weren't comparable to the fucking Nazis eastern campaign.
You still didn't answer what it meant to break the US military.
Actually, the US actions in SE Asia is very comparable to what Germany and it's allies did in eastern Europe and Russia... not even the Nazis attempted to use chemical warfare to starve their victim population into submission - the US did.
What the Nazis did was nothing unique - it has been standard fare for colonialist powers long before WW2 happened, and it was stadard fare for the US both before and during the (so-called) "Cold War." The only reason the Nazis became infamous for it was because they literally perpetrated it on the (so-called) "civilized" world's doorstep on people that looked "white."
That's because I won't - there is no need. Col. Robert D. Heinl answered this all the way back in 1971.
TLDR - “Our Army that now remains in Vietnam is in a state approaching collapse, with individual units avoiding or having refused combat, murdering their officers, drug-ridden, and dispirited where not near-mutinous.”
Homie, I think you should learn some more about the eastern front. The United States wasn't on an ethnic cleansing campaign in Indochina. The Nazi's were on an ethnic cleansing campaign.
Which had had which major defeats associated with it?
We are not friends.
You mean like this? Oops, sorry... wrong war. It's not my fault - when you get into the grisly details they all start looking the same.
Ooooh... you completely got me there. The millions dead in the Congo thanks to Belgium exploitation? Perfectly okay because it wasn't a clear-cut case of "ethnic cleansing." The millions starved to death in Bengal due to British colonialist policies during WW2? Perfectly fine because it wasn't a clear-cut case of "ethnic cleansing."
If only Hitler had you around to handle his PR for him, eh?
I'm just going to go ahead and assume it's also a complete mystery to you why the vaunted US military failed so abysmally in Afghanistan, eh?
It's only a mystery to you and your ilk - why do you think that is?
My Lai was not an ethnic cleansing campaign. It was not directed by the White House or the Pentagon. It was a massacre that had an attempted cover up.
Is it really that hard to understand that something can be illegal, unethical, and immoral, and not be ethnic cleansing?
This discussion is on vietnam, but cool.
Oh... you didn't get this the first time around. Here... let me help you along and repost it for you because you sure look like this is going to take you a lot of effort to get.
Also, why bring up My Lai? There was nothing unique about My Lai - except for the fact that it ended up being reported in the US media because one chopper crew decided to grow a backbone and put a stop to it (for once). For the US military in Vietnam, My Lai was Tuesday.
So do tell... how does a military end up being completely broken by a (supposedly) "inferior" enemy without actually having lost any decisive battles?
I'd hate to think what would have actually happened if the US had lost a clear-cut battle in Vietnam - the entire US may just have imploded in on itself due to shock.