Given that Trump is running in the Republican primary, I'm unsure how this would effect anyone voting uncommitted in a Democratic primary?
Well, you’re implying that you might vote for someone other than Biden in the general, and the impact of that is that Trump will become president and the impact of that is Israel will have a free pass from US leadership to completely annihilate Gaza and kill with impunity. So, in terms of actually achieving the goal of stopping the killing of Palestinians, voting uncommitted is not going to work. Additionally, by promoting voting uncommitted and making it a purity test, some people will be influenced by that and ACTUALLY not vote for Biden and this will be the same thing as voting for Trump in that the result of Trump winning will be the same.
This would be a much more productive conversation if you didn't just invent things I didn't say to argue with. I've implied no such thing.
I am explicitly using the Democratic primary as a method to express my displeasure with Biden, which you may recognize as the sole reason primaries exist. I'm increasingly confused by how many people seem to not understand that.
Will voting uncommitted or for the crazy crystal healing lady lead to the Democrats having a component and popular general election candidate come November? No, sadly, but that's a criticism of the state of our decayed democracy not giving voters meaningful avenues to enact change in society, not a criticism of the electoral strategies that have to exist within said decayed democracy.
Will voting uncommitted or for the crazy crystal healing lady lead to Biden making meaningful changes in his stances regarding Palestine? Given his change in messaging from the guy that bypassed Congress to sell Israel munitions two months ago to someone that now doing the bare minimum of at least air dropping (nowhere near sufficient) food supplies to Gaza, the answer to that is seemingly a slight yes. Which has the benefit of aligning the presumptive Democratic Presidential nominee with the majority of voters, making him a stronger general candidate.
You know. The whole point of a primary. So, you're welcome?
I’m increasingly confused by how many people seem to not understand that.
Me too, and I'm Canadian and don't know much about US politics. Are there sources out there (e.g., US news, social media campaigns, messaging from actual Democrats) spreading the idea that an uncommitted vote in the primary means voting for trump in the election?
Gotta lie keep the support for israel high.
Remember Trump isn't on the democratic ballot. You can't vote against him until November. Your only choice in the primaries is to vote for Biden or vote that you are here for the other progressive and democratic choices down ballot but Biden has to earn that commitment by doing something against his own personal desire to be a Zionist and instead help starving children get food.
Uncommitted doesn't mean I'm never going to vote for Biden. It just means he has to earn it through action.
Sure, but how many people are casting uncommitted or seeing how unpopular Biden is and are going to stay home in November because of it? My guess is not zero.
I get the protest and the timing, but it’s unclear if it’s really inoffensive in the general.
You don't get the protest then!
If Biden fears this uncommitted vote movement then he will have to do something to stop it in its tracks.
Using his power to stop the weapons and money transfers to Israel and using the words Ceasefire Now would be a start. If he starts doing concrete actions to stop ten year old children wasting away and dying of starvation then the uncommitted vote movement would be over.
Then it sounds like Biden needs to take a firm anti-genocide stance to get those voters to actually vote, no? Do you think the number of Biden voters would decrease if Biden stopped the genocide?
I think the number of voters in general will decrease if Trump wins, considering he wants to get rid of elections entirely.
Do you disagree with the statement that Biden taking an anti-genocide stance, rather than his current pro-genocide with wrist slaps stance, would increase voter turnout?
An honest answer: It would likely increase the progressive voter turnout, but I am unsure about the net effect. I would certainly hope it increases total overall turnout, but unfortunately a large chunk of the voting populace--including a lot of reliable Democrat voters--are still very much pro-Israel.
That said, I would also like to confirm: Assume for the moment that Biden and Trump wins the nomination, and there is no change in the status quo between now and November (this is unlikely, given Biden's recent shifts in policy signaling a possible change in trend, but I want to check against the worst case scenario). Would you still vote for Biden, or would you stay home? Would you staying home potentially affect the outcome (I.e. are you in a solid red/blue state like Alabama or California, or are you in a swing state like Michigan or Georgia)? What would need to change for you to vote for Biden in November?
I don’t know what you intended to post, but my phone wants to open it in WhatsApp
Then your phone is configured to open webp links as WhatsApp links, which is not the correct extension association.
It's an animated image.
Oh I don't doubt that the "uncommited" oppose Trump, too. The problem is the Genocide Joe rhetoric and other similar bullshit. You push that narrative and it may very well have lingering effects in Trump's favor during the general election. Maybe in other elections it didnt matter quite as much, but this is Trump were talking about. Why do you and others like you not get that? Hello, knock, knock. Trump is fully embracing the Hitler playbook and aiming to be president of the Most Powerful Nation on Earth. And you want to bitch about Biden? At this moment...? SMH, it is your sort of fractious indiscipline and short-sightedness that allows fascism to gain power, laughing all the way at your stupidity and inability to mount a coherent defence of democracy. You think you have nothing to lose, but you do. Things can get much, much worse.
Exactly, some people will take this uncommitted thing all the way to the general election. Biden only won by a few hundred thousand votes in swing states. If you weaken enthusiasm in folks to come out for him, all it takes is a few hundred thousand to stay home and Trump will win. Not voting for Biden will elect Trump. You will be helping Trump. You will be electing Trump. And encouraging others to do the same just for fun in the primary is a dangerous game of chicken. You don’t play with loaded guns. Don’t play with the last election the United States may ever have.
Well, you’re implying that you might vote for someone other than Biden in the general, and the impact of that is that Trump will become president and the impact of that is Israel will have a free pass from US leadership to completely annihilate Gaza and kill with impunity. So, in terms of actually achieving the goal of stopping the killing of Palestinians, voting uncommitted is not going to work.
Additionally, and I think this is IMPORTANT, by promoting voting uncommitted and making it a purity test, some people will be influenced by that and ACTUALLY not vote for Biden and this will be the same thing as voting for Trump in that the result of Trump winning will be the same.
A lot of uncommitted voters are going to vote for Biden out of harm reduction. They might vote against AIPAC-endorsed candidates if they only have Democrats in their ballots. I know I would, but if there is a Republican, I'd have to vote for an AIPAC-endorsed democrat.
In the primary? Absolutely. It's the only way I can demand more from Biden as a representative. These are voters who went out of their way to get up and vote for the democratic primary, just not for Biden. This is a huge way to put pressure on Biden and the DNC. These are committed voters protesting within the democratic party. This is the only way democratic voters can put pressure on Biden to change course.
The National is very different, we don't have a choice but to vote for Biden or domestic fascism. I will of course vote for Biden and urge others to as well during the National election. Not a third party or Trump in the National, Biden is the only real option.
This is the reality of our shitty FPTP democracy.
Yep. Voted no preference today and the most progressive candidates down ballot. My conscience is clear.
You're like those dudes who post anonymously things like "I'm totally 100% straight but occasionally I like sucking a dick"
That didn’t factor into my vote because I’m not homophobic.
Perhaps it's because you're too dumb to understand the concept of an analogy.
That analogy makes no logical sense, and I’d like to see you try to explain it without looking dumb yourself. Put up or shut up smart guy.
You delude yourself.
Explanation of analogy?
You don't understand the concept of self-delusion?
Jesus Christ you're stupid
What does my self-delusion have to do with the explanation of the analogy?
Yes lol. If you can't run a candidate that isn't whole heartedly in on genocide, then you shouldn't expect votes from people who don't like said genocide. The dems clearly don't actually give a fuck about democracy, why not actually throw that antipopulism behind a candidate who actually appeals to people. "Still uncommited" haha GTFO. Yell at the people actually choosing the candidate, not the people who don't want to vote for the meat puppet. I mean...Jesus fucking Christ.
Your purity test here makes you equivalent to a Trump supporter in that your actions of not supporting Biden will result in Trump winning the election.
As is clear from this article, Trump will “finish the job” in Gaza. You think it’s bad now? Wait until Israel is encouraged to completely seize Gaza and kill with even more impunity by Trump. So, your purity test for Biden will actually result in a worse outcome than you’re trying to achieve. You’re actually going to be causing a worse situation to unfold — one that is the opposite of what you want. You may say it’s justified because you needed to stand by your morals, but I don’t think that will matter to the Palestinians dying because you chose not to support Biden and by doing so, elected Trump.
I beg you to reconsider your position. Biden won by only a few hundred thousand votes in swing states. Your not supporting Biden and encouraging others not to as well could depress turn out and result in a very unfortunate situation. This may be the last election we ever have in America.
Purity test😂
You'd be better off yelling at the people who are pushing the worst possible candidate against Trump. Let's pretend you convince me to vote, congrats you've convinced 1 person in the interwebs. Write to your reps...ramp up the pressure and forget about me. Biden's losing with or without my vote, it's a good bet. When that happens you can blame people that didn't want to vote , or you can blame the party that's shooting itself in the dick...over...and over again. I know who will get blamed, and I don't give a fuck.
Still uncommitted?
Given that Trump is running in the Republican primary, I'm unsure how this would effect anyone voting uncommitted in a Democratic primary?
Well, you’re implying that you might vote for someone other than Biden in the general, and the impact of that is that Trump will become president and the impact of that is Israel will have a free pass from US leadership to completely annihilate Gaza and kill with impunity. So, in terms of actually achieving the goal of stopping the killing of Palestinians, voting uncommitted is not going to work. Additionally, by promoting voting uncommitted and making it a purity test, some people will be influenced by that and ACTUALLY not vote for Biden and this will be the same thing as voting for Trump in that the result of Trump winning will be the same.
This would be a much more productive conversation if you didn't just invent things I didn't say to argue with. I've implied no such thing.
I am explicitly using the Democratic primary as a method to express my displeasure with Biden, which you may recognize as the sole reason primaries exist. I'm increasingly confused by how many people seem to not understand that.
Will voting uncommitted or for the crazy crystal healing lady lead to the Democrats having a component and popular general election candidate come November? No, sadly, but that's a criticism of the state of our decayed democracy not giving voters meaningful avenues to enact change in society, not a criticism of the electoral strategies that have to exist within said decayed democracy.
Will voting uncommitted or for the crazy crystal healing lady lead to Biden making meaningful changes in his stances regarding Palestine? Given his change in messaging from the guy that bypassed Congress to sell Israel munitions two months ago to someone that now doing the bare minimum of at least air dropping (nowhere near sufficient) food supplies to Gaza, the answer to that is seemingly a slight yes. Which has the benefit of aligning the presumptive Democratic Presidential nominee with the majority of voters, making him a stronger general candidate.
You know. The whole point of a primary. So, you're welcome?
Me too, and I'm Canadian and don't know much about US politics. Are there sources out there (e.g., US news, social media campaigns, messaging from actual Democrats) spreading the idea that an uncommitted vote in the primary means voting for trump in the election?
Gotta lie keep the support for israel high.
Remember Trump isn't on the democratic ballot. You can't vote against him until November. Your only choice in the primaries is to vote for Biden or vote that you are here for the other progressive and democratic choices down ballot but Biden has to earn that commitment by doing something against his own personal desire to be a Zionist and instead help starving children get food.
Uncommitted doesn't mean I'm never going to vote for Biden. It just means he has to earn it through action.
Sure, but how many people are casting uncommitted or seeing how unpopular Biden is and are going to stay home in November because of it? My guess is not zero.
I get the protest and the timing, but it’s unclear if it’s really inoffensive in the general.
You don't get the protest then!
If Biden fears this uncommitted vote movement then he will have to do something to stop it in its tracks.
Using his power to stop the weapons and money transfers to Israel and using the words Ceasefire Now would be a start. If he starts doing concrete actions to stop ten year old children wasting away and dying of starvation then the uncommitted vote movement would be over.
Then it sounds like Biden needs to take a firm anti-genocide stance to get those voters to actually vote, no? Do you think the number of Biden voters would decrease if Biden stopped the genocide?
I think the number of voters in general will decrease if Trump wins, considering he wants to get rid of elections entirely.
Do you disagree with the statement that Biden taking an anti-genocide stance, rather than his current pro-genocide with wrist slaps stance, would increase voter turnout?
An honest answer: It would likely increase the progressive voter turnout, but I am unsure about the net effect. I would certainly hope it increases total overall turnout, but unfortunately a large chunk of the voting populace--including a lot of reliable Democrat voters--are still very much pro-Israel.
That said, I would also like to confirm: Assume for the moment that Biden and Trump wins the nomination, and there is no change in the status quo between now and November (this is unlikely, given Biden's recent shifts in policy signaling a possible change in trend, but I want to check against the worst case scenario). Would you still vote for Biden, or would you stay home? Would you staying home potentially affect the outcome (I.e. are you in a solid red/blue state like Alabama or California, or are you in a swing state like Michigan or Georgia)? What would need to change for you to vote for Biden in November?
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/90b37eb7-c720-4569-aee2-6315c3ad4c4e.webm
I don’t know what you intended to post, but my phone wants to open it in WhatsApp
Then your phone is configured to open webp links as WhatsApp links, which is not the correct extension association.
It's an animated image.
Oh I don't doubt that the "uncommited" oppose Trump, too. The problem is the Genocide Joe rhetoric and other similar bullshit. You push that narrative and it may very well have lingering effects in Trump's favor during the general election. Maybe in other elections it didnt matter quite as much, but this is Trump were talking about. Why do you and others like you not get that? Hello, knock, knock. Trump is fully embracing the Hitler playbook and aiming to be president of the Most Powerful Nation on Earth. And you want to bitch about Biden? At this moment...? SMH, it is your sort of fractious indiscipline and short-sightedness that allows fascism to gain power, laughing all the way at your stupidity and inability to mount a coherent defence of democracy. You think you have nothing to lose, but you do. Things can get much, much worse.
Exactly, some people will take this uncommitted thing all the way to the general election. Biden only won by a few hundred thousand votes in swing states. If you weaken enthusiasm in folks to come out for him, all it takes is a few hundred thousand to stay home and Trump will win. Not voting for Biden will elect Trump. You will be helping Trump. You will be electing Trump. And encouraging others to do the same just for fun in the primary is a dangerous game of chicken. You don’t play with loaded guns. Don’t play with the last election the United States may ever have.
Well, you’re implying that you might vote for someone other than Biden in the general, and the impact of that is that Trump will become president and the impact of that is Israel will have a free pass from US leadership to completely annihilate Gaza and kill with impunity. So, in terms of actually achieving the goal of stopping the killing of Palestinians, voting uncommitted is not going to work.
Additionally, and I think this is IMPORTANT, by promoting voting uncommitted and making it a purity test, some people will be influenced by that and ACTUALLY not vote for Biden and this will be the same thing as voting for Trump in that the result of Trump winning will be the same.
A lot of uncommitted voters are going to vote for Biden out of harm reduction. They might vote against AIPAC-endorsed candidates if they only have Democrats in their ballots. I know I would, but if there is a Republican, I'd have to vote for an AIPAC-endorsed democrat.
In the primary? Absolutely. It's the only way I can demand more from Biden as a representative. These are voters who went out of their way to get up and vote for the democratic primary, just not for Biden. This is a huge way to put pressure on Biden and the DNC. These are committed voters protesting within the democratic party. This is the only way democratic voters can put pressure on Biden to change course.
The National is very different, we don't have a choice but to vote for Biden or domestic fascism. I will of course vote for Biden and urge others to as well during the National election. Not a third party or Trump in the National, Biden is the only real option.
This is the reality of our shitty FPTP democracy.
Yep. Voted no preference today and the most progressive candidates down ballot. My conscience is clear.
You're like those dudes who post anonymously things like "I'm totally 100% straight but occasionally I like sucking a dick"
That didn’t factor into my vote because I’m not homophobic.
Perhaps it's because you're too dumb to understand the concept of an analogy.
That analogy makes no logical sense, and I’d like to see you try to explain it without looking dumb yourself. Put up or shut up smart guy.
You delude yourself.
Explanation of analogy?
You don't understand the concept of self-delusion?
Jesus Christ you're stupid
What does my self-delusion have to do with the explanation of the analogy?
Yes lol. If you can't run a candidate that isn't whole heartedly in on genocide, then you shouldn't expect votes from people who don't like said genocide. The dems clearly don't actually give a fuck about democracy, why not actually throw that antipopulism behind a candidate who actually appeals to people. "Still uncommited" haha GTFO. Yell at the people actually choosing the candidate, not the people who don't want to vote for the meat puppet. I mean...Jesus fucking Christ.
Your purity test here makes you equivalent to a Trump supporter in that your actions of not supporting Biden will result in Trump winning the election.
As is clear from this article, Trump will “finish the job” in Gaza. You think it’s bad now? Wait until Israel is encouraged to completely seize Gaza and kill with even more impunity by Trump. So, your purity test for Biden will actually result in a worse outcome than you’re trying to achieve. You’re actually going to be causing a worse situation to unfold — one that is the opposite of what you want. You may say it’s justified because you needed to stand by your morals, but I don’t think that will matter to the Palestinians dying because you chose not to support Biden and by doing so, elected Trump.
I beg you to reconsider your position. Biden won by only a few hundred thousand votes in swing states. Your not supporting Biden and encouraging others not to as well could depress turn out and result in a very unfortunate situation. This may be the last election we ever have in America.
Purity test😂
You'd be better off yelling at the people who are pushing the worst possible candidate against Trump. Let's pretend you convince me to vote, congrats you've convinced 1 person in the interwebs. Write to your reps...ramp up the pressure and forget about me. Biden's losing with or without my vote, it's a good bet. When that happens you can blame people that didn't want to vote , or you can blame the party that's shooting itself in the dick...over...and over again. I know who will get blamed, and I don't give a fuck.