I'm pretty sure it would be impossible to play a game like Spec Ops: The Line or Bioshock and miss the political message
People watch star trek and listen to fortunate son and miss the message in both of those pieces of art so I’m pretty sure someone would miss the political message in just about anything.
...and Starship Troopers, and every song by Rage Against the Machine...
Would you like to know more (examples of people missing the point)?
Does anyone really listen to RATM anymore? Tom Morello is a multimillionaire who hordes money instead of giving charity. Hes a hypocrite and a sell-out.
Well, you're a dumb conservative. Of course no one in your circle listens to Rage Against the Machine.
Music and film don't demand that you engage with them in the same way as video games. There are some games where you literally cannot play them without engaging with their narrative and message. Spec Ops: The Line is a good example of this. It actively pushes back against the player's natural inclination to play it like a modern military shooter and not absorb the message.
Russians had flown out singers to Ukraine singing Gruppa Krovi to the soldiers. This shit goes across cultures.
They might not be missing the message. Its reasonable to think "this is just the writers opinion, it wouldnt work out this way irl"
It's actually very possible to miss the message of Bioshock. Andrew Ryan built the perfect city and Atlas ruined it. Andrew Ryan cast him out, but Atlas brought the player character as his final ultimate weapon. You eventually rebel, saving the capitalist Utopia.
I have seen people who abided by this interpretation. Any art with any level of subtlety can be misinterpreted. It's inherently subjective and depends on the viewer's personal biases.
Capitalist utopia? Isn't the whole point that it's a Libertarian utopia?
Are you unfamiliar with capitalism as a theory? Or Ayn Rand? Yes, capitalist utopia. That's the entire libertarian ethos. Libertarianism is a political framework for governance, pure capitalism is its economic policy.
Don't get me wrong, the only Libertarianism I've ever known is intertwined with Capitalism. But they aren't the same thing, and I always read BioShock as being a take on Libertarianism specifically.
Bioshock is most specifically about Randian objectivism, which promotes a version of extreme laissez-faire capitalism, not libertarianism in general.
And I think that’s the most economic philosophy buzzwords I’ve put in a sentence before.
I think you're severely overestimating the average intelligence of the population.
I dunno how you could miss it in Spec Ops, that game is extremely blatant with messaging. I recently patient gamered it and was rather unimpressed. Bioshock still holds up though.
IMO it was a mistake to patient gamer Spec Ops. The whole point was that it was a pushback against the rhetoric of the US military and simultaneously a critique of Call of Duty: Modern Warfare (and knockoffs thereof), which had just exploded in popularity. By not playing it when the things it was critiquing were in the zeitgeist, you don't really get the same experience. Plus, the marketing for the game deliberately hid the fact that it was intended as a critique; it was marketed as yet another modern military shooter.
I think you can patient gamer it but it only works if you're heavily familiar with that time.
I was really into COD4 and grew up during the Bush administration so I knew exactly what Spec Ops was critiquing. If you don't have that experience though I agree it does not land.
What I didn’t like was the blunt messaging. I was expecting something a little deeper or more subtle than what I got. As a game, the clunky movement/cover system, simple enemy AI, and guns that just didn’t feel great hampered the experience. It’s very linear and there are forced choices (eg white phosphorus) that give you control but no choice
but to be evil. The graphics are lackluster compared to its contemporaries, but I did enjoy the soundtrack at times. I really got into it with a few of those songs. Unfortunately that only happened a few times during the weekend I beat it in. It was okay, but I was expecting a lot more based on what people said about it.
Appropriately for the thread, the WP scene had a choice: walk away. It kept telling Walker to walk away. The player could have shut the game off.
That's the pivot point: if you're just playing a game about Walker, then having a choice doesn't matter, you're just being told a story about a lunatic. But, if Walker is a stand-in for you, and you're playing the game "because you wanted to be something you're not - a hero", then not only is playing on a choice, choosing to play war porn in the first place is a choice.
I was expecting something a little deeper or more subtle than what I got.
That's the problem when these things gain reputations. The reputation builds it up to be more than the piece of art can deliver.
Now imagine playing it when it was new and you weren't "expecting" anything but a military shooter. It would still be just as blunt, but it landed back then far more effectively than when you go in knowing the reputation the game has built in the many years that followed.
Yeah that's fair.
IMO a lot of the subtlety comes from the imagery and symbols around you as you progress through the game. The vibrant tree that you pass that burns up when you look back, etc.
As far as gameplay goes it is very linear. The only "choice" is to stop playing. If I remember correctly the development behind Spec Ops was very rushed so they didn't have time to so any of those branching paths.
I appreciate it like I would a visual novel more than I do an interactive game.
a lot of the subtlety comes from the imagery and symbols around you as you progress through the game
One of the things I did appreciate about the game was seeing how grimy and worn down everyone got as the game progressed. That was an excellent small detail.
I'm pretty sure it would be impossible to play a game like Spec Ops: The Line or Bioshock and miss the political message
People watch star trek and listen to fortunate son and miss the message in both of those pieces of art so I’m pretty sure someone would miss the political message in just about anything.
...and Starship Troopers, and every song by Rage Against the Machine...
Would you like to know more (examples of people missing the point)?
Does anyone really listen to RATM anymore? Tom Morello is a multimillionaire who hordes money instead of giving charity. Hes a hypocrite and a sell-out.
Well, you're a dumb conservative. Of course no one in your circle listens to Rage Against the Machine.
Music and film don't demand that you engage with them in the same way as video games. There are some games where you literally cannot play them without engaging with their narrative and message. Spec Ops: The Line is a good example of this. It actively pushes back against the player's natural inclination to play it like a modern military shooter and not absorb the message.
Russians had flown out singers to Ukraine singing Gruppa Krovi to the soldiers. This shit goes across cultures.
They might not be missing the message. Its reasonable to think "this is just the writers opinion, it wouldnt work out this way irl"
It's actually very possible to miss the message of Bioshock. Andrew Ryan built the perfect city and Atlas ruined it. Andrew Ryan cast him out, but Atlas brought the player character as his final ultimate weapon. You eventually rebel, saving the capitalist Utopia.
I have seen people who abided by this interpretation. Any art with any level of subtlety can be misinterpreted. It's inherently subjective and depends on the viewer's personal biases.
Capitalist utopia? Isn't the whole point that it's a Libertarian utopia?
Are you unfamiliar with capitalism as a theory? Or Ayn Rand? Yes, capitalist utopia. That's the entire libertarian ethos. Libertarianism is a political framework for governance, pure capitalism is its economic policy.
Don't get me wrong, the only Libertarianism I've ever known is intertwined with Capitalism. But they aren't the same thing, and I always read BioShock as being a take on Libertarianism specifically.
Bioshock is most specifically about Randian objectivism, which promotes a version of extreme laissez-faire capitalism, not libertarianism in general.
And I think that’s the most economic philosophy buzzwords I’ve put in a sentence before.
I think you're severely overestimating the average intelligence of the population.
I dunno how you could miss it in Spec Ops, that game is extremely blatant with messaging. I recently patient gamered it and was rather unimpressed. Bioshock still holds up though.
IMO it was a mistake to patient gamer Spec Ops. The whole point was that it was a pushback against the rhetoric of the US military and simultaneously a critique of Call of Duty: Modern Warfare (and knockoffs thereof), which had just exploded in popularity. By not playing it when the things it was critiquing were in the zeitgeist, you don't really get the same experience. Plus, the marketing for the game deliberately hid the fact that it was intended as a critique; it was marketed as yet another modern military shooter.
I think you can patient gamer it but it only works if you're heavily familiar with that time.
I was really into COD4 and grew up during the Bush administration so I knew exactly what Spec Ops was critiquing. If you don't have that experience though I agree it does not land.
What I didn’t like was the blunt messaging. I was expecting something a little deeper or more subtle than what I got. As a game, the clunky movement/cover system, simple enemy AI, and guns that just didn’t feel great hampered the experience. It’s very linear and there are forced choices (eg white phosphorus) that give you control but no choice but to be evil. The graphics are lackluster compared to its contemporaries, but I did enjoy the soundtrack at times. I really got into it with a few of those songs. Unfortunately that only happened a few times during the weekend I beat it in. It was okay, but I was expecting a lot more based on what people said about it.
Appropriately for the thread, the WP scene had a choice: walk away. It kept telling Walker to walk away. The player could have shut the game off.
That's the pivot point: if you're just playing a game about Walker, then having a choice doesn't matter, you're just being told a story about a lunatic. But, if Walker is a stand-in for you, and you're playing the game "because you wanted to be something you're not - a hero", then not only is playing on a choice, choosing to play war porn in the first place is a choice.
That's the problem when these things gain reputations. The reputation builds it up to be more than the piece of art can deliver.
Now imagine playing it when it was new and you weren't "expecting" anything but a military shooter. It would still be just as blunt, but it landed back then far more effectively than when you go in knowing the reputation the game has built in the many years that followed.
Yeah that's fair.
IMO a lot of the subtlety comes from the imagery and symbols around you as you progress through the game. The vibrant tree that you pass that burns up when you look back, etc.
As far as gameplay goes it is very linear. The only "choice" is to stop playing. If I remember correctly the development behind Spec Ops was very rushed so they didn't have time to so any of those branching paths.
I appreciate it like I would a visual novel more than I do an interactive game.
One of the things I did appreciate about the game was seeing how grimy and worn down everyone got as the game progressed. That was an excellent small detail.