Yeah, and he went away not because they voted him out but thanks to Soviet weapons.
Who allied up with the Nazis to invade Poland?
IBM and Standard Oil
Soviets were the only ones who truly supported the Spanish democracy against the fascist. Every other country, including Poland, turned their back to us while the Luffwaffle was bombing our citizens.
Soviets were the only ones who truly supported the Spanish democracy against the fascist.
Curious that their backstabbing the Spanish republicans was instrumental in losing the Spanish Civil War for the republican side. Strange kind of support.
What kind of propaganda are you reading in which sending weapons, planes and officers (while all the other countries did NOTHING) is backstabbing.
Spain democracy lost because the allied powers did not care about us the same way the cared about Poland.
You're on Divide By Zero, you should be fucking familiar with how they fucked the anarchists and the Trots, and that most of their 'aid' was purchased, not given.
I'm friends with everyone leftist, even if they hate each other. I can feel comfortable among anarchist, tankies, socdems, new age leftists, reformist, etc. Because I know what our common objective is and I just can't care about the subtle differences. So I know the anarchist side of the story as well as I know the tankie side.
Being myself an active member of the social movement in my country and actually having watched modern day anarchist working with modern day communists I can say without any doubts that no version is true. Probably both starting arguing about stupid shit, and actual personal problems disguised as political problems, when they should had focused on the real enemy. But anyway I'm thankful for ALL who fought against fascism in Spain, anarchist, communist, republicans... I thank the international brigades, I thank orwell and I thank the soviets and stalinist. They all put their lives on line to stop fascism.
I just despise such an unproductive and harmful division of the left for shit that just does not matter when the true enemy is so big. And sometimes I just see a lust for internal division and eternal losing in such behavior. I don't know how some leftists have energy left to hate each other after they should had used that energy to fight the true enemy, capitalism and fascism. And I say this for any anarchist who hates tankies and any tankie who hates anarchists. You are not enemies, the enemy is in other direction.
Because I know what our common objective is and I just can’t care about the subtle differences.
Even when those 'subtle differences' result in being backstabbed and sold out and the entire cause being lost against a fascist enemy, great. Subtle little differences, like "We need to purge the anarchists and Trots" should be met with "We need complete and total cooperation with the people who want to purge us 😊"
The true meaning of a united front, huh?
As I said I have actually worked a lot in environments with a diverse leftist spectrum.
And in my experience backstabbing usually goes both ways and is a result of the previous hate (and a lot of the time because personal non political issues) not the other way around.
And yes. The only wins I've seen is when there have been total cooperation. Division is always the prelude of defeat.
And be ensure that I would be saying exactly the same words to any tankie who talks about "purging any leftist" no matter what their ridiculous arguments are for such a premise. I've heard it all and it is often just as untrue.
And American weapons. Let's not pretend that the USSR fought alone.
And Brittish weapons
and my axe!
And Fremch razor
Land Lease is just a western conspiracy!
It's Lend-Lease...
Probably more accurate to say American trucks and raw materials, but yes.
They did do 80% of the fighting, though. So lets not give America too much credit.
They did 80% of the dying, the current Ukraine war should be evidence that Russia's force multiplier is fractional
And only stole most of east Germany's infrastructure.
East Germany paid war reparations to the Soviets while rebuilding itself into an industrial powerhouse - the people who "stole most of East Germany's infrastructure" were the West German capitalists after reunification, when the whole region was forcibly de-industrialized and left a shadow of its former self that still hasn't fully recovered over thirty years later.
Source?
I read Stasi State or Socialist Paradise some years ago, I recommend it for anyone interested in a history of East Germany that isn't written by West German propagandists.
As did everyone. There's no study showing that the amount of rapes per soldier by the soviets is higher than that of other nations.
Oh fuuuuck of. There are books based on actual KGB archives that were opened up. Rape of Berlin is well described. There are books about the actual bordelos attached to armies. Western armies. Soviet officers had army wives. Apparently they still do.
There are countless accounts of people prefering Nazi soldiers to soviets.
It is THE reason central and easter Europe hates russia.
No data on rapes my ass. But pleeenty of data that soviets single handedly saved the world from Nazis.
Get a grasp.
Wow, so the released KGB archives show the tapes. I wonder what would happen if the Americans or the English did that too!
Hatred of Russians by eastern Europeans is due to 30+ years of anti-communist propaganda. The fact that poles hate the USSR which liberated more than the very Nazis who genocided millions of them, shows this. And it wasn't the case 40 years ago.
Polls in France after WW2 showed 70%+ of people saying it was the USSR who saved them from Nazism. Nowadays, it's 70% Americans. That's what Hollywood and propaganda do.
Your link shows nothing. And no. Not at all propaganda. As a Polish citizen, fuck you. The entirety of my family hates the USSR. Including those who were alive for WW2. No propaganda about it.
Their link shows some infographic in french, for me. I have reposted it.
Interesting. Look's like the "old.reddit" plugin breaks that link. Weird that they have to source a reddit thread rather than the actual study. Red flag for sure that they're full of shit. https://www.ifop.com/publication/la-nation-qui-a-le-plus-contribue-a-la-defaite-de-lallemagne/
Now is that graph valid... well looking at the "study report"... It's like 3 pages of content that doesn't actually outline much of anything and conflates with itself. The report says it was 1200 people 18 and older... the website says sample size of 995 people. The study report says 1200 people sample for the 2015 figures, except it was actually taken in may 2014. And no figures about how many people in the previous years. So I would worry about how "valid" this is to begin with. But let's look at the content on the original page.
The study even cites the reason this "perception" could have been a thing... (translated, possibly poorly. Check yourself! But my high school french skills only go so far).
Virginie Sansico, a historian specializing in World War II, sees these results as a certain logic: “Under De Gaulle, who was anti-Atlanticist, one was not quick to maintain the memory of the Landing. Moreover, the Communist Party has long helped to value the Soviets, when it had a strong influence. The first State-backed landing commemorations took place only in 1984, organized by Mitterrand: they mark a break in public opinion.”
“In Western Europe, the Allied Landing was crucial, but in the eastern countries, Stalin’s army still played a great deal behind.”
So actually it looks like Russia propaganda in the 1940s thanks to De Gualle's personal opinions on the matter.
So I'm going to go with, not only does that graph itself mean nothing in this conversation, but the story behind it actually damns the argument they're trying to make, especially since the matter is well known https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01402390.2016.1220367.
No, you see, your grandparents did not encounter both Nazis and soviets. Your parents did not live under communist rule. And most of all you cannot even pin point results of current day ramifications of: 1. Occupation period, 2. Communism.
Totally, propaganda. It is sooo good that they even brainwashed your parents into thinking like they lived in bad communist state. It is so good it feels like there is a rift between generations.
Totally. And would not you know, they also did that in the Baltics and Czech.
Ah yes I forget, my family's lived experience isn't real because some jerkwad on lemmy said so. The source of a removed comment on reddit proved otherwise! You've converted me, the stories, written history, oral stories that I've recorded for my own records/kids/history must all be wrong. Literal hours of first hand accounts and hundreds of pages of documented familial history
must be tainted and not an accurate account of the glorious USSR reign. Fuck... I better delete my grandfathers phone number. It must be getting answered by some deepfake AI voice...
I can see it in my browser and my phone, but sure. It's a poll showing how in 1945, 55% of French people claimed the USSR freed them from Nazism. In 2015 it's 25%. That's exactly propaganda.
When you are ready to spend 10% of the time you spend shitting on communism and the USSR, actually shitting on the Nazism which carried out actual genocide in your country, I'll be ready to talk with you. I'm sorry that the Polish foundational myth is based on Russophobia and anti-communism, it's impossible to have meaningful discussions of 20th century socialism with most polish people.
feel free to actually address it at your leisure. But you've shown that you're crazy anyway. So I don't think anyone has high hopes for you.
I shit on both Nazis and Russia. Both then and now.
I used that link not from a Reddit thread, I just know the graph and the easiest way for me to find it was to google-image-search it, and it's the first link that I could copy-paste, since it's more productive imo to link a graph than an entire study, since it's a comment section and not a scientific article.
So basically, your whole argument is, "the graph is kinda sus and I don't trust the source, probably russian propaganda, I hate Russia and I hate Nazis". Not the strongest rebuttal in my opinion.
Regardless. Notice how your phrase isn't "I hate Nazis and I hate the USSR and I hate the modern Russian government". You can make the distinction between Germany and Nazis, but you can't make the distinction between the Russian governments at different times and the nation as a whole. This proves further my point that your hatred is more Russophobia than actual historical criticism of the actions of governments.
Suddenly you only go as far back as WW2, not to the German-occupied regions of Poland before and during WW1. We forget about those because they weren't Russian, don't we? Those pesky friendly Germans in western Poland, who cares, nothing happened before Nazism, the important thing are the evil Russians. But of course we remember the Poland under the Russian Empire! Because that actually aligns with the contemporary Polish foundational myth!
Never mind that the Bolsheviks granted Poland the legal right to secede in 1917 immediately after the October revolution, and Poland used that power to immediately proceed to invade the similarly recently independent Ukraine and even some soviet lands because of nationalist conceptions of historical borders. It's somehow all the fault of Russians after all, isn't it? Much better to forbid communist parties in Poland while you have literal Nazis in parliament using fire extinguishers against Jewish symbols!
So basically, your whole argument is, “the graph is kinda sus and I don’t trust the source, probably russian propaganda, I hate Russia and I hate Nazis”. Not the strongest rebuttal in my opinion.
No... and not even close. The graph led me to the study which has obvious flaws... But even IGNORING Those flaws... they themselves put up an argument of why the sentiment could have been this way... and it was because of the French leadership.
but you can’t make the distinction between the Russian governments at different times and the nation as a whole.
Nope, I can make that distinction. The difference here is that both in the past and present they're monsters. During Communism they shit on Poland, and now they threaten Ukraine... our neighbors. I don't NEED to make the distinction because it's both cases. Where as with Gemany I have to make the distinction as they're not currently ruled by the Nazi party.
Suddenly you only go as far back as WW2
No... That's the context of this thread. I kept with the context. The fact that you have to keep shifting goal-posts and cannot continue the discussion under the same pretenses is a huge red flag.
Never mind that the Bolsheviks granted Poland the legal right to secede in 1917 immediately after the October revolution
So in 1945... what happened to Poland... since they legally succeeded from the USSR they were a free country again right?
https://archive.org/details/polandsholocaust00piot/page/88/mode/2up
Or did Russia actually completely fuck Poland (again) by undermining it's legitimacy? Removing all previous influences and pulled them into the Soviet Union. Going so far as to kill thousands for no fucking reason other than they weren't communist.
It’s somehow all the fault of Russians after all, isn’t it?
Nah, that just historic revisionism that pro-Russian people spout all the time. You seem to love changing time-frames all the time. So here... let's end this stupidity.
Which time do you want to talk about how Russia tried to fuck Poland? I've traced my roots back to the 1500s... I can possibly talk about a number of these wars.
But it's a general trend that Russia goes out of it's way to Fuck the Polish people. Yet somehow this is Russophobia! Yeah get out of here.
they're monsters
Great, now you're not talking even of Russia as a country, but of Russians as a people, and calling them universally monsters, whether they're peasants under the Russian Empire, workers in the Soviet Union, or citizens under the Russian Federation. Nice way to show everyone here that yes, your whole point here is Russophobia, not legitimate and credible analysis of history and societies.
Again, as I said, impossible to discuss with most Polish people, you're not arguing from reason but from nationalism and racism. Good night, and good luck
We do know however that the Red Army had the most investigations of and prosecutions of rapists, so it's a bit of a "Swedish rape crisis" problem where they look worse on paper than other countries simply because their record keeping of the crime in question is better.
Oh, boy. Good that soviets took such good care of recording rapes. Unlike bad western nazies. White washing soviet rapes with statistics.
There is also one more reason. soviets had no bordelos for the regular army. Only officers had army wives. It is a known fact. So what would regular grunts would do is rape anything they find.
But probably western propaganda. Because in communism, everyone is equal, and everything belongs to everyone.
Like in current day russia.
I will let you know that you constantly excuse and support ultracapitalist nazi regimes. That makes you a nazi.
Tell me one I'm defending
I also only rape within the average of my demographic
What's your point? Every rape is to be condemned and prosecuted. What isn't fair is making up claims about the amount of rapes by a certain demographic and not backing that up with extensive evidence. That exactly what racist people do against immigrants, and that's what Nazis did against soviets.
Prosecuted ? Yes, war, famously rule-of-law kind of situation...
Yeah, and he went away not because they voted him out but thanks to Soviet weapons.
Who allied up with the Nazis to invade Poland?
IBM and Standard Oil
Soviets were the only ones who truly supported the Spanish democracy against the fascist. Every other country, including Poland, turned their back to us while the Luffwaffle was bombing our citizens.
Curious that their backstabbing the Spanish republicans was instrumental in losing the Spanish Civil War for the republican side. Strange kind of support.
What kind of propaganda are you reading in which sending weapons, planes and officers (while all the other countries did NOTHING) is backstabbing.
Spain democracy lost because the allied powers did not care about us the same way the cared about Poland.
You're on Divide By Zero, you should be fucking familiar with how they fucked the anarchists and the Trots, and that most of their 'aid' was purchased, not given.
I'm friends with everyone leftist, even if they hate each other. I can feel comfortable among anarchist, tankies, socdems, new age leftists, reformist, etc. Because I know what our common objective is and I just can't care about the subtle differences. So I know the anarchist side of the story as well as I know the tankie side.
Being myself an active member of the social movement in my country and actually having watched modern day anarchist working with modern day communists I can say without any doubts that no version is true. Probably both starting arguing about stupid shit, and actual personal problems disguised as political problems, when they should had focused on the real enemy. But anyway I'm thankful for ALL who fought against fascism in Spain, anarchist, communist, republicans... I thank the international brigades, I thank orwell and I thank the soviets and stalinist. They all put their lives on line to stop fascism.
I just despise such an unproductive and harmful division of the left for shit that just does not matter when the true enemy is so big. And sometimes I just see a lust for internal division and eternal losing in such behavior. I don't know how some leftists have energy left to hate each other after they should had used that energy to fight the true enemy, capitalism and fascism. And I say this for any anarchist who hates tankies and any tankie who hates anarchists. You are not enemies, the enemy is in other direction.
Even when those 'subtle differences' result in being backstabbed and sold out and the entire cause being lost against a fascist enemy, great. Subtle little differences, like "We need to purge the anarchists and Trots" should be met with "We need complete and total cooperation with the people who want to purge us 😊"
The true meaning of a united front, huh?
As I said I have actually worked a lot in environments with a diverse leftist spectrum.
And in my experience backstabbing usually goes both ways and is a result of the previous hate (and a lot of the time because personal non political issues) not the other way around.
And yes. The only wins I've seen is when there have been total cooperation. Division is always the prelude of defeat.
And be ensure that I would be saying exactly the same words to any tankie who talks about "purging any leftist" no matter what their ridiculous arguments are for such a premise. I've heard it all and it is often just as untrue.
And American weapons. Let's not pretend that the USSR fought alone.
And Brittish weapons
and my axe!
And Fremch razor
Land Lease is just a western conspiracy!
It's Lend-Lease...
Probably more accurate to say American trucks and raw materials, but yes.
They did do 80% of the fighting, though. So lets not give America too much credit.
They did 80% of the dying, the current Ukraine war should be evidence that Russia's force multiplier is fractional
They did some rapes too !
And only stole most of east Germany's infrastructure.
East Germany paid war reparations to the Soviets while rebuilding itself into an industrial powerhouse - the people who "stole most of East Germany's infrastructure" were the West German capitalists after reunification, when the whole region was forcibly de-industrialized and left a shadow of its former self that still hasn't fully recovered over thirty years later.
Source?
I read Stasi State or Socialist Paradise some years ago, I recommend it for anyone interested in a history of East Germany that isn't written by West German propagandists.
As did everyone. There's no study showing that the amount of rapes per soldier by the soviets is higher than that of other nations.
Oh fuuuuck of. There are books based on actual KGB archives that were opened up. Rape of Berlin is well described. There are books about the actual bordelos attached to armies. Western armies. Soviet officers had army wives. Apparently they still do.
There are countless accounts of people prefering Nazi soldiers to soviets. It is THE reason central and easter Europe hates russia.
No data on rapes my ass. But pleeenty of data that soviets single handedly saved the world from Nazis.
Get a grasp.
Wow, so the released KGB archives show the tapes. I wonder what would happen if the Americans or the English did that too!
Hatred of Russians by eastern Europeans is due to 30+ years of anti-communist propaganda. The fact that poles hate the USSR which liberated more than the very Nazis who genocided millions of them, shows this. And it wasn't the case 40 years ago.
Polls in France after WW2 showed 70%+ of people saying it was the USSR who saved them from Nazism. Nowadays, it's 70% Americans. That's what Hollywood and propaganda do.
Yup, propaganda. Sure.
Yes. Propaganda.
https://external-preview.redd.it/AhO5ZQ677V5Y9TmxXkvG9PfdoBCeDKR7gFKy84JiGTc.jpg?auto=webp&s=e727011a95ea3bbe987cc313ffdda0e38fae8c64
Your link shows nothing. And no. Not at all propaganda. As a Polish citizen, fuck you. The entirety of my family hates the USSR. Including those who were alive for WW2. No propaganda about it.
Their link shows some infographic in french, for me. I have reposted it.
Interesting. Look's like the "old.reddit" plugin breaks that link. Weird that they have to source a reddit thread rather than the actual study. Red flag for sure that they're full of shit. https://www.ifop.com/publication/la-nation-qui-a-le-plus-contribue-a-la-defaite-de-lallemagne/ Now is that graph valid... well looking at the "study report"... It's like 3 pages of content that doesn't actually outline much of anything and conflates with itself. The report says it was 1200 people 18 and older... the website says sample size of 995 people. The study report says 1200 people sample for the 2015 figures, except it was actually taken in may 2014. And no figures about how many people in the previous years. So I would worry about how "valid" this is to begin with. But let's look at the content on the original page.
The study even cites the reason this "perception" could have been a thing... (translated, possibly poorly. Check yourself! But my high school french skills only go so far).
So actually it looks like Russia propaganda in the 1940s thanks to De Gualle's personal opinions on the matter.
So I'm going to go with, not only does that graph itself mean nothing in this conversation, but the story behind it actually damns the argument they're trying to make, especially since the matter is well known https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01402390.2016.1220367.
No, you see, your grandparents did not encounter both Nazis and soviets. Your parents did not live under communist rule. And most of all you cannot even pin point results of current day ramifications of: 1. Occupation period, 2. Communism.
Totally, propaganda. It is sooo good that they even brainwashed your parents into thinking like they lived in bad communist state. It is so good it feels like there is a rift between generations.
Totally. And would not you know, they also did that in the Baltics and Czech.
Ah yes I forget, my family's lived experience isn't real because some jerkwad on lemmy said so. The source of a removed comment on reddit proved otherwise! You've converted me, the stories, written history, oral stories that I've recorded for my own records/kids/history must all be wrong. Literal hours of first hand accounts and hundreds of pages of documented familial history must be tainted and not an accurate account of the glorious USSR reign. Fuck... I better delete my grandfathers phone number. It must be getting answered by some deepfake AI voice...
I can see it in my browser and my phone, but sure. It's a poll showing how in 1945, 55% of French people claimed the USSR freed them from Nazism. In 2015 it's 25%. That's exactly propaganda.
When you are ready to spend 10% of the time you spend shitting on communism and the USSR, actually shitting on the Nazism which carried out actual genocide in your country, I'll be ready to talk with you. I'm sorry that the Polish foundational myth is based on Russophobia and anti-communism, it's impossible to have meaningful discussions of 20th century socialism with most polish people.
https://lemmy.saik0.com/post/911795/3275325
feel free to actually address it at your leisure. But you've shown that you're crazy anyway. So I don't think anyone has high hopes for you.
I shit on both Nazis and Russia. Both then and now.
I used that link not from a Reddit thread, I just know the graph and the easiest way for me to find it was to google-image-search it, and it's the first link that I could copy-paste, since it's more productive imo to link a graph than an entire study, since it's a comment section and not a scientific article.
So basically, your whole argument is, "the graph is kinda sus and I don't trust the source, probably russian propaganda, I hate Russia and I hate Nazis". Not the strongest rebuttal in my opinion.
Regardless. Notice how your phrase isn't "I hate Nazis and I hate the USSR and I hate the modern Russian government". You can make the distinction between Germany and Nazis, but you can't make the distinction between the Russian governments at different times and the nation as a whole. This proves further my point that your hatred is more Russophobia than actual historical criticism of the actions of governments.
Suddenly you only go as far back as WW2, not to the German-occupied regions of Poland before and during WW1. We forget about those because they weren't Russian, don't we? Those pesky friendly Germans in western Poland, who cares, nothing happened before Nazism, the important thing are the evil Russians. But of course we remember the Poland under the Russian Empire! Because that actually aligns with the contemporary Polish foundational myth!
Never mind that the Bolsheviks granted Poland the legal right to secede in 1917 immediately after the October revolution, and Poland used that power to immediately proceed to invade the similarly recently independent Ukraine and even some soviet lands because of nationalist conceptions of historical borders. It's somehow all the fault of Russians after all, isn't it? Much better to forbid communist parties in Poland while you have literal Nazis in parliament using fire extinguishers against Jewish symbols!
No... and not even close. The graph led me to the study which has obvious flaws... But even IGNORING Those flaws... they themselves put up an argument of why the sentiment could have been this way... and it was because of the French leadership.
Nope, I can make that distinction. The difference here is that both in the past and present they're monsters. During Communism they shit on Poland, and now they threaten Ukraine... our neighbors. I don't NEED to make the distinction because it's both cases. Where as with Gemany I have to make the distinction as they're not currently ruled by the Nazi party.
No... That's the context of this thread. I kept with the context. The fact that you have to keep shifting goal-posts and cannot continue the discussion under the same pretenses is a huge red flag.
So in 1945... what happened to Poland... since they legally succeeded from the USSR they were a free country again right? https://archive.org/details/polandsholocaust00piot/page/88/mode/2up Or did Russia actually completely fuck Poland (again) by undermining it's legitimacy? Removing all previous influences and pulled them into the Soviet Union. Going so far as to kill thousands for no fucking reason other than they weren't communist.
Nah, that just historic revisionism that pro-Russian people spout all the time. You seem to love changing time-frames all the time. So here... let's end this stupidity.
Which time do you want to talk about how Russia tried to fuck Poland? I've traced my roots back to the 1500s... I can possibly talk about a number of these wars.
But it's a general trend that Russia goes out of it's way to Fuck the Polish people. Yet somehow this is Russophobia! Yeah get out of here.
Great, now you're not talking even of Russia as a country, but of Russians as a people, and calling them universally monsters, whether they're peasants under the Russian Empire, workers in the Soviet Union, or citizens under the Russian Federation. Nice way to show everyone here that yes, your whole point here is Russophobia, not legitimate and credible analysis of history and societies.
Again, as I said, impossible to discuss with most Polish people, you're not arguing from reason but from nationalism and racism. Good night, and good luck
We do know however that the Red Army had the most investigations of and prosecutions of rapists, so it's a bit of a "Swedish rape crisis" problem where they look worse on paper than other countries simply because their record keeping of the crime in question is better.
Oh, boy. Good that soviets took such good care of recording rapes. Unlike bad western nazies. White washing soviet rapes with statistics.
There is also one more reason. soviets had no bordelos for the regular army. Only officers had army wives. It is a known fact. So what would regular grunts would do is rape anything they find.
But probably western propaganda. Because in communism, everyone is equal, and everything belongs to everyone.
Like in current day russia.
I will let you know that you constantly excuse and support ultracapitalist nazi regimes. That makes you a nazi.
Tell me one I'm defending
I also only rape within the average of my demographic
What's your point? Every rape is to be condemned and prosecuted. What isn't fair is making up claims about the amount of rapes by a certain demographic and not backing that up with extensive evidence. That exactly what racist people do against immigrants, and that's what Nazis did against soviets.
Prosecuted ? Yes, war, famously rule-of-law kind of situation...
My point is it should be
Imagine thinking the Russian cowards were the main factor in Hitler’s loss 😂😂😂