In a 65-foot-deep tunnel in Rafah, hostages found executed by captors
ynetnews.com
Forces had no direct confrontation with Hamas terrorists who killed hostages; 'The IDF and security forces are doing everything possible to bring all hostages home as quickly as possible. This news shakes us all,' says army spokesperson Hagari
Israeli forces discovered the bodies of six hostages in a 65-foot-deep tunnel in Rafah, approximately a kilometer from where hostage Farhan Alkadi was recently freed. The IDF had no precise intelligence on the hostages' location in recent months but knew there were captives in the sector, leading to a gradual and cautious operation in Rafah since the ground offensive began.
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The hostages seem like the only bargaining chip they have (not that it's much of a bargaining chip), so I'm surprised they're doing it. Maybe they've decided that it isn't worth it.
I put as much faith in this as I do the hospital tunnel story.
Anything the IDF says is to be treated as bunk without at least 2 corroborating sources. The IDF lies like they breathe, so I'm more willing to assume they killed the hostages to make Hamas look bad than anything they actually say.
It's entirely possible this is total nonsense, but I could also see them realizing that keeping them alive was an exercise in futility and, as I suggested in another comment, a waste of precious resources like food.
Oh, don't get me wrong, it could maybe possibly be true. We're just getting it from a serial liar, so the message is untrustworthy on its face.
I'll be extremely saddened if I'm wrong here, because those people didn't deserve this. But given Israel's long history of blatant lies in the name of PR against anything Palestinian, I'm not going to believe it until a credible source backs up their statement.
It's been confirmed multiple times from multiple sources that Gaza's largest hospitals are connected to Hamas' tunnel network. The UNWRA, various doctor groups and various media outlets had reported it prior to this most recent conflict.
For someone moderately or more paying attention there should have been no reason to doubt those claims from the IDF; not just because they cane with nominally verifiable audio and video evidence. But also because Hamas has never refuted claims about its use of its tunnel network in and around hospitals, schools and other civilian infrastructure.
No one doubts the existence of the tunnels, because Israel made them. What is unconfirmed, and frankly bullshit, is how much those are utilized and whether the propaganda put out by Israel about the headquarters is true. (Hint: it's propaganda to make useful idiots support the terror that the Israeli state is imposing in the Palestinian people). Also, let's not forget the hilariously bad video they put out as """proof""" from months before.
So yeah, try harder to push your propaganda, because you kinda suck at it.
"They" in this case was a random Twitter account chasing clout.
The IDF invited NBC and other news organizations to tour the tunnels they found. Along with a bunch of other proof of their usage.
Maybe the problem is that you look at random Twitter accounts chasing clout as legitimate sources. There's a ton of these clout fiends talking shit on both sides sharing false or doctored video.
Oh yeah, the Other debunked tunnel propaganda . My bad, it's so hard to keep all of this propaganda straight.
And lol, NBC was one of the many cheerleaders for the Iraq war, maybe don't use argument to authority fallacies when you're using a source that's perpetuated state propaganda before.
That article doesn't debunk it. It simultaneously says the proof of the tunnels under the hospital is unconvincing and then says "but Israel build basement rooms in the 1980s so it doesn't count."
Israeli history isn't even a necessary consideration. The messaging of any warfighting party should always be taken with appropriate caution.
If someone is willing to wage war to achieve their goals, some propaganda efforts are certainly not out of the question. Factuality cannot really be confirmed until after the war is over, and the area becomes safe for neutral parties to visit. Active warzones are just not fountains of factual and verifiable reporting though.
Hamas is trying to keep as many alive as they can.
But (a) 2000 pound bunker busters don't discriminate between Palestinians and Israelis and (b) if the IDF comes too close to the hostages, their guards have to decide whether to let them go alive or to kill them.
In the case of the Druze guy, I can definitely see Hamas choosing not to kill him. But in cases of Israelis who also served in the IDF, the rational choice is to kill them instead of giving the IDF a propaganda win.
And finally, sometimes the IDF probably accidentally kills them and tries to blame Hamas if they can get away with it.
This is a war crime. You can't execute POWs just because the enemy is getting close to the POW camp.
They aren't combatants or PoW, taking them hostage was a human rights violation from the beginning.
But Israel can't really expect Hamas to follow Geneva conventions when they themselves violate it a hundreds times as often.
This is a massively false statement. And it's one that should make you reconsider your viewpoint from the ground up.
I don't know if a more incorrect statement could be made about this conflict.
Is Hamas even that disciplined to act as a unified front? Management or soldiers on the site could've decided themselves to take a revenge on hostages. Especially if they knew they are cornered and there were no use of keeping them alive if they are deadmen too.
Based on accounts from hostages who have been freed, Hamas is at least more disciplined than the IDF
Ha. If Hamas had IDF weapons and tactics, they would use it to eradicate every Jew in the middle east. They don't have such weapons because they aren't disciplined at all. They are so undisciplined, they can't plan for their own futures unless it involves killing Jews. That's why there is no investment in the future of Gaza or its people except for terror tunnels, rockets, and rocket launchers, oh and mass shootings.
Such discipline from Hamas that Gaza can't be trusted with a runway, let alone aircrafts and parts, or other nice things that normal countries get to have when they don't keep putting terrorists in charge.
Funding is not disclipine. I believe your head is in your ass. I’m willing to help with that, even though I’m against genocide and the more than half century occupation and Israel’s current g̶o̶v̶e̶r̶n̶m̶e̶n̶t̶ terrorist regime.
Does any credible, multilateral international body designate Israel as terrorists, or just edgelord know nothings on the internet?
I guess only the UN. Your daddy Netanyahu is a terrorist and you are a shameful person for supporting him.
How dare you support genocide you disgrace of the Israeli people.
Probably frustration and despair. If your bargaining chip can't get you a bargain, all they're worth is 'revenge' against your opponent.
What a fucked situation.
Thinking on it, it was probably also costing them what are now valuable resources to keep them alive. When it's near impossible to get in and out of Gaza, food, medicine, etc. are worth their weight in gold.
So instead of letting them free they murder them?
Why would they let them free when they consider them the enemy?
Because now they'll be pursued for the rest of their life. Free a hostage and you have essentially a get out of jail free card.
Do you really believe that any member of hamas would be safe just because they let some hostages go? How would that work? Should they surrender themselves to the IDF while delivering the hostages, just notify them of where they are so they won’t be bombed or how would that all work?
Israel has tip lines set up for Hamas members and members of the Gazan public to call. You call and say, "me and my boys will have an unspecified number of hostages at x location at y time and are looking to surrender. Then you show up at that time with those resources and surrender.
There's a genocide on buddy. They already were.
There wasn't a "genocide" on Oct 6th.
Just cause you weren't paying attention yet doesn't mean it wasn't happening.
Ahh so are you one of those "genocide is what I feel it is" folk or one of those "genocide is when the Jews are still alive" sort of folk?
Did you know there are Jewish palastinians? On top of that, Palestinians are semitic. You can't call racist when the group I'm defending is in the same racial group and contains religious Jewish folk. It ain't about being Jewish, it's about the fact I have seen palastinians getting shot in the street for literally my whole life. My whole life I'm hearing news every now and then how Israel overstepped again and ethnically cleanse an area of palastinians. How they kicked palastinians out of their home. I've seen videos of Israeli settlers kicking palastinians out of their home at gunpoint saying that the state sold them the house. It's a state doing a genocide. It isn't "the Jews" you fucking moron. It's the state of Israel. Interesting how you see Israel as being an ethnostate but don't see their removal of natives as genocide. But that's what happens when you don't think about your ideas longer than 5 seconds.
About 50% of Israeli Jews are descendants Arabs, Persians and North Africans who were forcibly relocated to Israel by the leaders of the Arab world or native to the region. Israel is a reservation, agreed to and established by Arabs as part of the agreement between their leaders and European leaders to overthrow the Ottoman Empire.
In the West Bank or the Gaza strip? Because there are no and have been no settlements in the Gaza Strip in a generation.
So again, is it a genocide because you feel like it or because they're Jews?
I ain't arguing. You are an evil motherfucker willing to justify a genocide. Ain't no convincing you. Ain't no convincing me. Your wrong and I hope one day your heart opens and sees it. Or at the very least I hope for your sake the afterlife contains no hell.
If you don't have the resources to provide for your POWs, the correct solution is parole, not execution.
Hamas are terrorists. They work through terror.
How would you propose safely paroling them? There's already examples of released hostages then being killed by the IDF.
Historically you've shipped them to a neutral nation (like Switzerland) who negotiated their return to their home country on the condition that they not be allowed to rejoin the war effort either for the duration of the war or for a specific time.
None of these things are solutions that haven't been seen before.
Any type of parole has to be at least marginally less dangerous for the hostage than execution.
If they die either way, no it isn't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Alon_Shamriz,_Yotam_Haim,_and_Samer_Talalka
Sounds equally dangerous to me.
Execution has a kill rate of 100%.
Even if paroling is stupidly risky, the ods of death are still <100%.
It would also be seen positively by everyone and one propaganda piece less for Israel to use.
Let’s argue with reason and not pretend that because it has happened before it will happen every single time. Cock-ups happen everywhere.
They did what you suggested with those specific hostages. It was not seen positively by everyone.
They also did it with other hostages that the IDF didn't kill. It was not seen positively by everyone.
So you're right, let's argue with reason. We can reason that what you're suggesting doesn't work based on what they've already done.
My friend, you are literally arguing that executing hostages is the same as attempting to release them under extremely risky conditions because it has failed in the past.
If that is truly your opinion, then I honestly have no more to say. I can’t reasonably argue with that type of opinion.
I still wish you a great day though and hope the fighting ends soon.
No, I am literally arguing that this claim of yours has already been tried and failed:
And the reason I am arguing it is that it has already been tried and failed.
Yeah no mate, you don’t get to hide behind the argument that because it doesn’t have a 100% success rate, we might as well execute them. Murder is always unnacceptable
Depending on how recently they were executed, it makes perfect sense. As the one holding hostages, you want to set the precedent that the only way to get them out alive is via negotiation.
They died recently enough for the bodies to be quickly identifiable. No DNA tests necessary or anything apparently.
Sounds like they were retreating from the area, and didn't want to bring the hostages with them. In this case, executing the hostages makes strategic sense, as it reinforces the threat that you are willing to do so.
They also have dead Palestinian kids that they've intentionally placed in harms way, entire cities they use as human shields, you know, for sympathy.
"Martyrdom" they call it.