In a 65-foot-deep tunnel in Rafah, hostages found executed by captors
ynetnews.com
Forces had no direct confrontation with Hamas terrorists who killed hostages; 'The IDF and security forces are doing everything possible to bring all hostages home as quickly as possible. This news shakes us all,' says army spokesperson Hagari
Israeli forces discovered the bodies of six hostages in a 65-foot-deep tunnel in Rafah, approximately a kilometer from where hostage Farhan Alkadi was recently freed. The IDF had no precise intelligence on the hostages' location in recent months but knew there were captives in the sector, leading to a gradual and cautious operation in Rafah since the ground offensive began.
These people might have been alive if we had a ceasefire. But no, Netanyahu's political career is more important.
Some Palestinian children and international aid workers are going to pay dearly for this.
They could have had all the hostages back in October. Hamas just wanted back the hostages that Israel holds.
And again, they could have had all the hostages back in May.
Netanyahu seems committed to genocide and the hostages are collateral damage.
It's deranged and I am ashamed our western leaders are cheerleading this.
Hamas didn't just want hostages back in October, but let's not get derailed, yes it's true that the Israelis could have stopped the war at many occasions.
"Civilian" hostages. Israel has compulsory military service. And a reasonable chunk of those taken hostage were active or reservist military members.
So no, not all.
Without a military intervention it is implied Hamas wants to trade the IDF active duty military hostages for Palestinian hostages in a to be decided deal.
A "to be decided deal" isn't an offered deal.
I see you there making an effort to dehumanize the hostages. Shame on you.
I'm not dehumanizing the hostages. Hamas has literally clarified that when it agrees to release Civillian hostages it will not release any active or reservist hostage or military-aged males (even if they're not in the military currently).
During the temporary cease-fire, they were supposed to release all the elderly hostages. But they kept some of the males back who were veterans.
The headline given wasn't an offer by Hamas to return all the hostages as was claimed earlier in the thread. It was an offer to return some of the hostages and to keep the rest indefinitely.
How were they doing that? To me it seemed like their point was a distinction between all hostages and civilian ones being released. I don’t know if they are correct, but I cannot see how it in any way dehumanizes anyone.
And what's the point of bringing up that some of them may have done compulsory service at some point in their life under a story about Hamas killing six hostages?
There is a context to this, and there is a narrative being promoted that justifies Hamas taking hostages (which is a war crime) and justifies the killing of these unarmed hastages (which is also war crime) because they were at one time IDF (aeven if that were the case, it would also be a war crime to summary execution prisoners of war).
It's all about building a permission structure to make the war crimes of Hamas acceptable by attempting to classify the hostages as IDF.
To me it sounded like they were specifically pushing against a claim that Hamas offered to free everyone. They pointed out that they only said civilians and as not all hostages would be considered civilians not all hostages would have been freed as another commenter claimed.
I still see it as them pushing back against an “Hamas was good actually” sentiment, arguing that Hamas was not as good as implied due to a careful reading of the statement and an assessment of the hostages and whether all were civilian or would be considered civilian by Hamas.
There is a greater context, but the thread in which this was written the context was a push back against claims portraying Hamas favorably.
You read it correctly.
There's apparently a very rancorous debate in Israeli politics right now about accepting a ceasefire and a lot of people are angry that they're not making more concessions to get a ceasefire.
It's blatantly clear that Netanyahu has no desire to rescue the hostages.
Citizens often get angry about the policy of not negotiating with terrorists, especially victims families, but it's a sound policy though. Saves lives in the long run.
In the 70s the PLO was labelled terrorist and not negotiated with. Now sane Israelis(*) would dream having the PLO as their adversary.
(*) The right wing (Netanyahu et co) on the other hand funded and supported Hamas.
That was the publicly stated policy. The US did negotiate with the PLO and we did have non-official cover diplomats going in and out of Gaza every week.
Israel funding Hamas is another lie. I can do it, too. The UN funds Hamas because it provides food to Gaza, keeping Hamas in power by preventing the Gazan people from having to live with the consequences of their choices (having no food because they prefer to have terrorists in charge). I mean, that's technically true, but not really funding Hamas.
So you mean... "negotiating with terrorists" is actually necessary?
And I said funded and supported. Here is the Times of Israel, a well known antisemitic, anti-israel publication : https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
No negotiating with terrorists isn't necessary. Terrorists don't get to have a country. Real simple.
Letting Qatari cash into Gaza as well as issuing work permits to Gazan's is not "funding and supporting." Reread your article.
Terrorists don't get a country? Must be news to the Irgun crowd.
And sorry, I'm not going to re-litigate Netanyahu's propping up of Hamas here. This is known, Khaleesi.
So why did Israel get one considering those founders were terrorists?
These people might have been alive if they had never been kidnapped by palestinians.
Sure, but how far back do you want to take the causal chain?
I propose we take it as far back as it is possible to avoid future repetitions. So, a ceasefire for now. A just peace with dismantling of occupation and apartheid for next.
Way to victim blame
This is honestly the first time I've seen anyone cast Netanyahu as the victim.
You're taking blame off the people who literally slaughtered these prisoners, and throwing it back at them for being born in Israel. Don't be purposely obtuse to try and play some game.
with how happy the IDF has been with killing the hostage themselves so far, I have a hard time believing it. Could it have happened? Sure. Did it? Since the IDF says it did, it's much more likely that it didn't.
"Hamas could never do something like this. Kidnap and take hostages? Sure. But they would never cross this line. They are the good guys."
Fuck off.
not what I said at all. you fuck off and learn to read first.
Oh, were you not insinuating that a terrorist organization could be capable of murdering hostages?
i wasn't insinuating anything. i openly said that a terrorist organization is capable and happy to kill the hostages.
I also said it is possible that Hamas has done it because they're also terrorists.
but whenever IDF says something happened it's more than likely it hasn't.
So until Hamas confirms the claims, you are just going to not trust that they did this?
yes, that's my general attitude toward liars who lie all the time.
Defending the innocence of a right wing Islamic fundamentalist terrorist organization is absolutely bonkers.
still no luck with the whole reading thing huh
You're saying you have a hard time believing that a terrorist organization that murdered 1200 people in a day in the most brutal ways imaginable would kill hostages.
I think you have your default mode set to "blame Israel for everything". You might want to turn that dial back a little, you're getting a bit disconnected from reality.
funny how you quoted to the point where I explained why I said i have a hard time believing it yet you still ignored all of it at the period.
i don't have a hard time believing terrorists would happily kill the hostages. if they had any problems with the hostages dying they would have stopped the indiscriminate bombing of gaza from the start.
but of course Hamas is also a terrorist organization. the smaller one in this conflict but still. so yeah, i already said "sure" it could have happened. but everything we've heard from israeli hostages so far suggest they've mostly seen harm from the IDF, not Hamas. taking hostages usually has a purpose, and killing them is the least likely way to achieve it.
my default position is that the IDF lies all the time. like constantly. and i wouldn't believe anything they say without third party confirmation just like i don't believe what Nazis would say about Jews. believe it or not I'm not much of a "believe what the genocidal maniacs say" kind of guy myself.
It doesn't really make sense for them to destroy what little leverage they have like that.
The original attack on October 7th didn't really make sense from a strategic standpoint. Hamas hasn't gained anything in the past 11 months, and I don't think the hostages actually give them any leverage against the campaign of genocide the IDF is waging.
Ahh, I see the problem now. You then that Hamas terrorists are sane and not religious extremist nut jobs.
99% chance that it's either a complete fabrication or a distortion of the truth when an IDF spokesperson is the ONLY source. Let's see if anyone even remotely reliable confirms the story.
While I agree with you that independent verification is mandatory in situations like this, I also believe that once you get that verification, your position will not change. You have only given yourself a 1% chance of changing your stance, which means, in my opinion, that the only refuge you are offering yourself is conspiracism if and when you are proven wrong.
I suspect the conspiracy will be "Israel killed the hostages themselves."
False.
No. I have given a very generous 1% chance of something said ONLY by an IDF spokesperson being the unvarnished truth. The concurrence of other sources would of course dramatically increase that chance, especially if any of them are themselves very reliable.
That's a very weird way to guess wrong.
Wouldn't be the first time or the last. That's not a conspiracy theory at this point, though, just what's most likely given the past behavior of all of the factions involved 🤷
I'm reserving final judgment until people of greater reliability than the likes of Donald Trump, Baghdad Bob, or Alex Jones chime in, though.
You don't see how automatically trusting the captors until proven otherwise is already evidence of how much you have embraced conspiricism?
I'm not saying that I trust Hamas. For the record, I don't.
I'm just saying that I don't trust the IDF either, infamous as they are for being caught lying constantly.
So you trust none of the firsthand sources, but somehow still think you're enlightened to what's going on?
I trust journalists that have proven themselves reliable, even as that puts them directly in the crosshairs of the genocidal apartheid regime.
Never claimed any such thing. Please stow your strawman.
What, Al Jazeera and Guardian? Ha.
Both have proven track record of genocidal tendencies. Both are proven terrorists even if only one of them is a designated terrorist organisation.
So taking any statement made by any of them unverified with a boat load of salt is not only prudent it is necessary.
Right, but you know hamas believes jews should be wiped from this earth, and you know this current war began because of specific steps Hamas chose to take to attempt to make that goal a reality, you know the mistreatment they have displayed towards the hostages.
So for you to say that there is a 99% chance that Hamas is innocent of these killings, that's a specific choice you are making for conspiricism.
That's irrelevant. They're not in a position where doing so is possible, and killing their only leverage against a technologically and numerically superior force is not in their interest.
The Israeli people thinking that they did, on the other hand, is VERY much in the interest of the IDF.
Nope. Atrocious and barbaric beyond description as it was, October 7th was a political act, not a foolhardy attempt to kill all Jewish people.
Just because they're despicable terrorists doesn't mean that Hamas are stupid enough to think that the total eradication of all Israeli Jews, let alone all Jews worldwide, is something that is in any way possible.
And it's not a war. It's one of the biggest, most powerful, and most technologically advanced militaries in the history of humanity eradicating or displacing an entire people, using a tiny minority (that is nowhere near as much a threat as they pretend) as a pretense.
Talking about Hamas or Israel? Because the only significant differences with regards to hostages is that Israel has hundreds if not thousands as many that they abuse just as horribly as Hamas does theirs.
Again ignoring the qualifier, so I'm gonna make it a little more obvious:
As long as an IDF spokesperson is the ONLY source
Nope, that's a statement of how unreliable the IDF and their spokespeople have proven themselves to be. Repeatedly leaving out that part, though? THAT'S a specific choice.
Islam prophet died and the only possession he had was a shield owned by his jew neighbour.
Any person of faith, including hamas, dont believe in “Jewish genocide” it goes against the religion.
No, Hamas, beliefs and actions are not irrelevant to the situation we are currently in. That is foolish.
Describing terrorists committing a terrorist act as a "political" action is incredibly forgiving of the behavior of terrorists.
An elected government invading and attacking a different country is an act of war, regardless of whether the nation they attacked is militarily superior. Hamas made a decision to go to war, and claiming they didn't is factually wrong.
I don't personally feel any need to justify the behavior of any right wing religious fundamentalist organization against their hostages. The fact that we are in a situation where two organizations fitting that description are behaving badly and you have chosen a side says something about you that it doesn't me.
Watching you go above and beyond the things you're accusing somebody else of has been entertaining.
We get it, you're down with genocide and whatever justifies it. Feel like just saying that would have been easier. 🤷♂️
I'm sure it emotionally feels better for you to pretend I am down with genocide than it is to actually confront and respond to anything I said.
Kind of seems like fox News level intellectual cowardice on your part though.
Your attempt to goad me into a conversation I've ALREADY WATCHED YOU HAVE is precisely the level of troll bullshit I expect from you right wing shit nuggets.
"OhhhHHhHHh I'm a centrist I don't trust either side (but I'm only going to attack one side and accuse one side of wrongdoing, except when I spend precisely 4 words out of 3,000 to say 'I don't trust IDF' to prove how centrist I am.)"
Every conservative accusation is a confession. Anyway, fuck you and everybody like you. Blocking you now because I don't owe troll "teehee you can't prove anything about me unless you have a signed confession in triplicate" faschies my time.
Palestine is not a country. They're basically part of Israel. Israel controls their money, imports, exports, travel into and out of it, they're water spaces, air spaces, energy, trash, water, etc. It's not a war if a military starts killing huge amounts of civilians, which so what's happening here. It's a genocide. It was terrorism to get hostages to extract concessions on Israel's horrible policies towards Palestine, where they've been slowly eradicating people and taking territory for decades without any sign of help from the outside world in slowing their slow rolling ethnic cleansing.
If you automatically believe the IDF after their long history of blatant lies, then you've take a side whether you believe yourself superior and neutral, or not.
Hamas is the elected government of Gaza. GAZA AND west Bank are officially recognized as "the state of Palestine."
We have to be factual here.
Israel supported Hamas' rise to power, despite the objections of the Palestinians. Israel is responsible for the Hamas' power over Gazans. It gives their ethnic cleansing plausible deniability.
The Palestinians elected Hamas, did they not?
While this is all very entertaining, the very definition of terrorism is using terror to achieve political or ideological goals. Otherwise it's just mass murder, genocide, or whatever.
So if the political goals of the Palestinian government are to kill as many Palestinians as possible, why are the anti-Israel protests not a joint protest of both Israel and Palestine?
Why is the role of Hamas minimized?
You may not know the answer or be willing to say it, but I certainly know the answer and am under no obligation to not say it.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The actions of Hamas are terrible, and inevitable due to the equally reprehensible actions of Israel. That still has no bearing on the definition of the word terrorism.
No, the actions of Hamas were not inevitable. That is absolving them of moral culpability.
But thank you for proving my point that this is not a pro-Palestine movement, but rather an anti-Israeli movement.
There are way more far fetched conspiracies out there.
So your evidence of the conspiracy that Israel's policy is to murder hostages themselves to frame Hamas is that 9 months ago an Israeli unit killed 3 hostages while not realizing they were hostages?
That's pretty weak justification to align yourself on the side of Hamas here. I think you know that though.
It's more about their inability to respect the most recognizable sign of surrender. The problem is you think any criticism of the IDF is alignment with Hamas. These are people being murdered, pull your head out of your ass.
...I'm not a supporter of the IDF.
Di you want to understand the argument being made before choosing to argue against it?
After reading through your post history, all I can say is "Bullshit."
So says the IDF, anyway. I'll believe it when someone independent confirms it.
It's no mental stretch to believe idf would kill their own to further the genocide agenda.
Considering they already have, multiple times, I guess I could agree with you
Yeah, it seems more the IDF is just shooting literally anything human-shaped. Aid workers, friendlies, journalists, civilians, in addition to the odd actual "guy actually shooting at us".
I did read an article though that the most current attack on aid had been taken over or ambushed by people with weapons. Not defending IDF for their genocide and terrorism, but the aid group said so apparently for this most recent attack on aid conveys, although there have been dozens.
Also, condemning genocide and apartheid occupation does not mean support for a terrorist organization like Hamas, but it can be argued they treat their prisoners and hostages better than Israel.
It takes a terrorist like Netanyahu to fund another terrorist organization like Hamas.
After all, if the hostages are already dead no need for a ceasefire.
I don't think they intentionally would, but indiscriminate bombing has the tendency to create unintentional deaths for everyone involved.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive#2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
What the actual fuck are you talking about. Hamas murders people all the fucking time, posting videos of their brutal murders etc. proudly online. IDF has no interest in killing hostages, it does not help them, it can only backfire.
I mean I also don't think they're killing hostages (intentionally, anyway), but to say it's not in their interest is wrong.
They have already killed 3 hostages waving white flags.
"They" being the IDF, to be clear.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-hostages-killed-mistakenly-gaza-were-holding-white-flag-official-says-2023-12-16/
Yes, sorry I should have been less ambiguous. Thanks for posting a link.
I know but that was more of a fucking mess than anything resembling a policy to my knowledge.
Netanyahu and the Likud? Right-wing party of Israel weren't they found to have funneled money and funds and weapons and all kinds of shit to support Hamas activities just to maintain their control over the state of Israel?
Either way, the Region is FSCKed beyond belief. And the CCPPCC and Russia have more fingers in more of the Mid-East Asia pie just as much as Europe/America.
No foreseeable workable solution for next 10 years.
Hasbara
It's baffling that you're being downvoted for this.
Antisemitic leftists run this shithole
Lemmy in a nutshell. Mostly a very specific group of people.
These people are all kinds of dumb fucking idiots living in a fairy tale where Hamas are the poor oppressed good guys
I'm telling you that if, say, Canada came and occupied my home town, forced everyone out, and killed my family, that I'd definitely be an anti Canadian terrorist.
Addition: How is this being downvoted. Violence begets terrorists. Have we learned nothing from historical US intervention in the middle east? This is Israel's "War on Terror" and its going to end the same way. Tons of dead brown people and many many more terrorists.
Hey Buddy, there'd no need to go there, pal. We're not going to do that unless there's a Tim's in your town friend.
PS, please don't read up about our history in WWI, we're just the funny folks with goofy red uniforms and horses...
PPS, please don't read up about the actual RCMP.
You'll be disappointed. Tim's is no good any more.
Oh yeah, the coffee and donuts are absolute shit - the scones are kinda alright though.
That isn't Hamas though. Their leadership lives it up in Bahrain I think and has a dictatorship over Gaza. Before the pandemic there was a protest by the Palestinians and it was brutally oppressed. Hamas hasn't held elections in a long time.
Don't confuse Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians seeking revenge with Hamas.
I'm saying when you have no outlet for justice, you will side with whatever is the next best option. It's what all these harm reductionists say here in the states about voting.
You side with the best of two options, and hamas, even if just slightly, is better for Palestinians than Israel.
I'd be a lot easier to just objectively say "fuck Hamas", if Israel wasn't being their #1 recruitment officer by making life in Palestine and the West Bank hell.
Oh I don't disagree there. I agree with pretty much everything you've said here actually. I was just saying that Hamas isn't some pure hearted rebellion group. But I do think they are the lesser evil.
Yeah I wish more people could have that level of nuance. Hamas suck, agreed, Israel really is fueling them. Imagine how different this would look of Israel stood with the world after October 7th and were peaceful. Suddenly Hamas would have been public enemy #1.
But Israel jumped the shark and used it instead as a pretext for ethnic cleansing.
They have leadership in and out of Gaza. Which is so obvious I don't understand why Westerners like to use it as a point against Hamas. The political leadership of Hamas needs to be able to negotiate with Israel and third parties, and when was the last time Netanyahu went to Gaza to negotiate?
Exactly.
Also Hamas is both a dictatorship and a group of freedom fighters. Fighting oppression is a good act on its own, but it doesn't need to be done by good people.
Well said. I just like to differentiate between Hamas itself and the Palestinians freedom fighters, because there is a difference. At the end of the day though, maybe it isn't a distinction that matters a whole lot right now.
You would be a freedom fighter going for liberation though.
Hampshire is not attempting to liberate the Palestinian people.
That's what you are failing to realize.
A person with no options is going to choose the better of two evils. Hamas wants to rule over them. Israel wants to wipe them off the map.
Its always the same people that advocate for harm reduction with our votes that say stuff like this.
The only option here is for one of the two side to be better, and I feel it's incumbent on Israel as long as they are recieving our weapons.
That's the only reason any of us care over here in the US, frankly, is that we are suddenly all morally culpable. In the hypothetical Candian invasion circumstance, I would absolutely side with "Not Canada" if given an option.
Can you name a single policy or decision over the last 20 years that Hamas has had that makes you believe they aren't themselves attempting to get Palestine wiped off the map?
In my mind, if Hamas were themselves trying to rule, they would be making decisions for themselves and not doing what Iran tells them to.
Surely you have put two and two together already.
You want me to prove a negative?
"Prove that they don't want to kill themselves"
Hardly a cogent argument you are making. Absolute insanity. Let's assume for a moment that their intention is to get themselves all killed, which again is ludicrous. How does that excuse Israel's actions?
How does Israel actions, to my point, not strengthen Hamas recruitment and power?
So you can't name a single decision made by the Palestinian government that has improved their life over the last 20 years rather making things worse for them?
That's irrelevant. Because, as I said, the choices are absolute shit rulers or complete destruction. You are seeming to think I'm arguing Hamas are the good guys here.
When presented with the choice of destruction by Israel or a horrific theocratic regime, they are making the only choice available.
Harm Reduction. If Israels goal was to help the Palestinian people, they would be using the carrot rather than the genocidal stick.
Except complete destruction wasn't a card on the table before Hamas.
Israel is also not the ones who suspended all future Palestinian elections.
Israel isn't grooming Palestinian children i to working as Hamas terrorists by producing children's cartoons blaming Jews for homosexuality, etc.
Israel can be wrong in their response, 100%. But we need to be clear: Hamas is only capable of getting Palestinians murdered. They serve no other purpose.
They got Israel to leave Gaza so there we go. That's one. They help Palestinians who have lost everything to get revenge on their oppressors. There's another one. And they're helping push a two-state solution and elevated this issue of the Palestinian plight more than it's ever been raised before.
What if you did it first for like a thousand years and wanted to do it again?
Walking around in your home town on top of artifacts, the earliest recorded human history of the region, written in the language of the people you're saying pushed you out. Sounds delusional to say the land was yours first. Just dig a hole and look for yourself. Hamas knows this, with all their digging.
Land provenance isn't a good argument for Gaza. The historical record of who was there first is irrefutable
Modern Ashkenazi Jews are not ancient Israelis.
They looked a lot more like the Palestinians. IMO religion as a race is stupid anyways
What I'm saying is that the Palestinians were actively displaced, in recent history. I'm not arguing who has right to land, just that up and deciding a handful of decades ago that people need to move is not the right call.
Maybe not the right call but it was the call and now that's what we've got. Saying it's not the right call is a useless platitude, same as saying Palestinians were there first. Israel is there. Israel a flawed democracy, which is infinitely better than the far right, theocratic dictatorships, including Gaza, which surround it, and for that reason alone is worth the western defense.
We aren't talking about 1000s of years ago, or even weeks ago. They are still creating illegal settlements and displacing everyone else. They haven't even kept to their own stolen borders.
Israel is literally an apartheid state committing genocide. Their democracy isn't worth shit.
Not really but okay.
Uh... The Israelites who were there first are, for the most part, the ancestors of modern Palestinians. Your point simply doesn't stand when you look at history.
What a terrible article. What is the source or evidence the hostages were executed? People are saying it’s a claim by the IDF but it’s not even attributed to them. From reading the article I have no idea who is making this claim or how it is supported. That’s not how journalism works.
So much angst about unreliable sources here, but we’re letting this fly?
Edit: Here is a better summary of the available source information. It is coming from the IDF, but they haven’t really said much other than it was obvious to them Hamas was the culprit. We’ll have to see what further information they release.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-hostages-hersh-netanyahu-29496f50a9b1740bd3905035ffd23052
They released an autopsy. What the frack do people want?
A link to it? Lol
Let's be real, if you had a link to the autopsy you wouldn't change your mind. You haven't decided your beliefs based upon evidence; why would you change them based on it?
Reuters
We can't trust them Jews to do anything properly!
They were 65 feet down in a Hamas tunnel. What other evidence could you possibly need to know Hamas killed these hostages?
There are a lot of ways people can die in a tunnel in war. Friendly fire, suffocation, starvation, disease, tunnel collapse… the list goes on. Execution is a very specific way to die, and it’s extremely convenient to IDF’s narrative about the conflict, and it seems counter to Hamas’s interests to throw away their main bargaining chip. It’s not that I don’t believe that’s what happened, but the minimal details presented here don’t tell a complete story and weren’t even traceable back to a specific source. I’m just looking for a little more detail to fully understand what happened.
And this is assuming the bodies were found where they died. It’s also possible they died elsewhere and were being stored here for use in negotiations. We just don’t know much and unfortunately, will need to depend on untrustworthy sources to find out more.
Do we have any source aside from the IDF?
Because already where they were supposedly found is based on what the IDF says. And we know that the IDF has been lying repeatedly throughout this war. We know that IDF soldiers have killed Israeli hostages before. We know about the Hannibal doctrin that dictates the IDF killing their own soldiers to prevent them from being captured alive. And the current political situation in Israel has become extremely critical of the IDFs failures to secure the hostages. So the IDF has an even greater incentive to downplay any possible responsibility.
Until we have the results of a comprehensive investigation by a non IDF party, there is a lot more evidence we need to know before forming a judgement.
We know Hamas and regular Gazans lie even more than the IDF.
Greater incentive? Hamas are terrorists. They follow zero international laws. Hamas has no incentive whatsoever to be honest. We know about their constantz irrefutable war crimes, every time they go out without uniforms (always), hiding among civilians (the more the better!), as if that's not a bigger war crime than anything the IDF has been accused of, using entire cities as human shields.
Not sure about that. The Hamas health system seems to have been pretty accurate about casualty numbers so far and in the past (including when belatedly confirmed by the IDF). Whereas the IDF has been shown to lie quite a lot
Also: International Law? What does the ICJ have to say about that issue?
They're simply no way to reasonably say that the IDF lies more than Hamas, or that Hamas is more credible than the IDF. The IDF is the professional military apparatus for whom every Israeli citizens serves, building roads, stopping suicide bombers from entering the country, and all sorts of useful things. It has government oversight by democratically elected civilians.
Hamas literally lies about everything and encourages a culture where hurling false accusations at the infidels is a fanatical duty, the more sensational the better. Qatari media will run the stories. Guardian will repeat them without scrutiny, and internet know nothings will do the rest. World's respectable media: silent, as they won't run stories based on TikTok memes.
Yeah, the Palestinian medical system keeps a pretty good account of dead bodies. That's about the only thing it's good for. They are accomplices to constant lies about how those bodies piled up and who they are. All of them are kids. None of them are fighters. All of them were sniped in the head or blown up by Israel bombs. None of them were stoned to death by fellow Gazans for implying that Gaza should hold an election. Not one!
The ICJ hasn't ordered Israel to do anything Israel was not already doing. Read the orders yourself. At some point South Africa is going to have to prove up their reductive and self-cited claims in a courtroom and since their entire complaint is essentially based on Al Jazeera and Guardian articles that lack names, dates, or on the record sourcing, that's going to be a heavy lift! Israel is going to bring receipts. And when they find they did fuck up, they will have a reciept for the court marshals and indictments. When is the last time a Gazan fighter faced a court marshal, never? How many Gazans in jail (in Gaza) for war crimes, none? Because they give you money in exchange for doing war crimes, in Gaza. Israel at least has some people in prison. The ICJ cited Israel's continuing efforts to prosecute war criminals in its initial orders denying South Africa's request for affirmative relief. Gaza has followed how many provisos of the ICJs orders? Zero.
Keep drinking that koolaid, brother
Stop drinking whatever it is you're drinking dude...
You asked, what more evidence would be needed. I laid it out. In regards to "hiding among civillians" i would like to ask you, whether you will apply that same condemnation to IDF, whose Headquarters are in the center of TelAviv https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HaKirya
Are they hiding the IDF headquarters among civilians? No. Did they sneak in at night and build it under colleges and apartment buildings? No. Everyone knows right where it is. The people going in and out are uniformed soldiers, under color of a legitamate country.
This is a stunningly idiotic comparison. You weren't serious, forgot the /s, right?
If you were Hamas, would you situate yourself in a building out in the middle of nowhere (where is that in Gaza?) With a sign on it saying Hamas lives here, please don't bomb.?
So you acknowledge the fact that hamas uses human shields to protect its military assets?
I wouldn't be Hamas.
No one would be occupied, if they could help it. That's rather the point
Has Gaza made any effort to reject international terrorism and work towards a future with justice and basic human rights for its own people? No.
Every time they choose terrorism. They would rather be fed by the charity of gullible westerners than by their own hands, those are occupied with killing Jews. Don't invest in food infrastructure, spend all the Qatari money on rockets! Solid leadership from Hamas, popularly elected before Hamas (popularly) cancelled all future elections. Suggest otherwise and they'll (popularly) kill you! That's your freedom fighters.
That's why it was blockaded. It was occupied because of October 7. It is still occupied because of Hamas and it's ideological supporters and allies. Maybe we could have a few Gazan's step forward and point out the tunnels, point out the Hamas members, if they aren't happy with where Hamas has led Gaza and don't want martial law.
You could say the same about the IRA. And people did. It was tedious and irrelevant then, too Look, you're entitled to your opinion. Let's agree to disagree
Fair enough. History will judge.
E: Actually no it's not fair enough. Did the IRA not have a specter of legitimacy? I'm judging them both by how they treated their own people, and innocent people. I would likely give Palestine a pass for killing their oppressors if I thought that's what they were doing. Again, go over there and talk about women's rights for democratic values, and see if you don't get stoned to death for being an infidel. The IRA were at least decent people, morally defensible.
Well, Hamas claimed it was the IDF.
Of course they did. Hamas are liars. They kill people all the time and blame Israel. Pretty much their only strategy.
IDF claims one thing, Hamas claims another. Doesn't seem like there's a good reason to believe one account over another although given your posts it doesn't sound like you require any validation of IDF claims. That's fine for you but other people will want more objective proof than that
Then apparently a ceasefire isn’t “possible”. STFU, Hagari.
'Quick, bomb more civilian choke points!'
Sure it is. Hamas will release the hostages and surrender and there will be a ceasefire, otherwise Hamas will be killed to the man.
"Hostages found bludgeoned to death with rubble in tunnel that was liberated by IDF bombs."
Israeli spokesperson had this to say "When we forced people to live in slums and ghetto's we thought they would act like our ancestors, and we could just slaughter them. I guess that's not how genocide always works. But we with will keep trying no matter how many innocent children die! Because when the victims stands up for themselves, we lose, and the Zionism cult doesn't allow for that."
Source?
When the IDF rescued the only 4 hostages they did, they killed 300+ mostly women and kids including some more of their own hostages.
So that's why probably it was a no brainer for Hamas to indeed just execute them as soon as they figured they would be found, to save the lives of hundrends of innocents
Why would the IDF's response be weaker if the hostages are dead?
We need clear good guys and bad guys, so if the IDF is the bad guys (which they certainly are) well that means Hamas must be the good guys (which they certainly are not) and thus this has to be some noble effort.
No, they killed the hostages and left. If they tried to hold up, and maybe go for a prisoner swap, there'd be more people at risk.
Not claiming Hamas is good but if there's no resistance, they don't kill as many people while finding the bodies.
They're not trying to protect the 'innocent', they didn't want the IDF gunning them down. When they saw the news about the IDF laying waste to everyone, they said "Fuck that," killed the hostages and left.
Warfighting 101, that's why you don't go scorched earth for your hostages. If you make it a smart move to just kill them, they'll just get killed...
Granted if you're not looking for the hostages but looking to make your opponent look more inhuman, well, in that case great idea.
Dave Mason
French people committed all sorts of terrorist acts against the nazis in the early days of WWII, were those french terrorists not the good guys in the conflict? If so, why wouldnt Hamas also be the good guys?
Not necessarily. Crimes against the innocent are pretty fucking hard to justify.
The French "terrorists" weren't trying to provoke Germany into killing as many French as possible to win a propaganda in the US, for starters.
These are not even vaguely the same situations.
The terror attacks against jews in the levant started in the 1850s, as a protest against the tanzimat reforms which granted jews equal rights in the ottoman empire. Before the tanzimat reforms jews were legally second class citizens.
Ever hear the saying "Equality feels like oppression to the privileged?" The founding father and first president of palestine, Raj Amin Al-Husani, the person who signed the palestinian declaration of independence and the declaration of war against israel in 1948, was a member of the richest land owning family in plaestine and next in line to inherit the throne of jersulem, which was given to his family as a wedding gift by the profit Muhammid when the family's head married the profit Muhammid's daughter Fatima after the islamic conquest of jersulem.
"Raj" is a title. It means "prince".
The tanzimat reforms were a direct result of the patriarch of the Al-Husani clan getting offended and killing a group of christian pilgrims for displaying non-islamic holy symbols in public in jerusalem, which angered the Pope so much he threatened the ottomens with a trade embargo from christian nations unless equal rights were granted to people of other faiths.
No need to go in after hostages that aren't there
I would have thought returning them would be the no brainer.
The hostages seem like the only bargaining chip they have (not that it's much of a bargaining chip), so I'm surprised they're doing it. Maybe they've decided that it isn't worth it.
I put as much faith in this as I do the hospital tunnel story.
Anything the IDF says is to be treated as bunk without at least 2 corroborating sources. The IDF lies like they breathe, so I'm more willing to assume they killed the hostages to make Hamas look bad than anything they actually say.
It's entirely possible this is total nonsense, but I could also see them realizing that keeping them alive was an exercise in futility and, as I suggested in another comment, a waste of precious resources like food.
Oh, don't get me wrong, it could maybe possibly be true. We're just getting it from a serial liar, so the message is untrustworthy on its face.
I'll be extremely saddened if I'm wrong here, because those people didn't deserve this. But given Israel's long history of blatant lies in the name of PR against anything Palestinian, I'm not going to believe it until a credible source backs up their statement.
Israeli history isn't even a necessary consideration. The messaging of any warfighting party should always be taken with appropriate caution.
If someone is willing to wage war to achieve their goals, some propaganda efforts are certainly not out of the question. Factuality cannot really be confirmed until after the war is over, and the area becomes safe for neutral parties to visit. Active warzones are just not fountains of factual and verifiable reporting though.
It's been confirmed multiple times from multiple sources that Gaza's largest hospitals are connected to Hamas' tunnel network. The UNWRA, various doctor groups and various media outlets had reported it prior to this most recent conflict.
For someone moderately or more paying attention there should have been no reason to doubt those claims from the IDF; not just because they cane with nominally verifiable audio and video evidence. But also because Hamas has never refuted claims about its use of its tunnel network in and around hospitals, schools and other civilian infrastructure.
No one doubts the existence of the tunnels, because Israel made them. What is unconfirmed, and frankly bullshit, is how much those are utilized and whether the propaganda put out by Israel about the headquarters is true. (Hint: it's propaganda to make useful idiots support the terror that the Israeli state is imposing in the Palestinian people). Also, let's not forget the hilariously bad video they put out as """proof""" from months before.
So yeah, try harder to push your propaganda, because you kinda suck at it.
"They" in this case was a random Twitter account chasing clout.
The IDF invited NBC and other news organizations to tour the tunnels they found. Along with a bunch of other proof of their usage.
Maybe the problem is that you look at random Twitter accounts chasing clout as legitimate sources. There's a ton of these clout fiends talking shit on both sides sharing false or doctored video.
Oh yeah, the Other debunked tunnel propaganda . My bad, it's so hard to keep all of this propaganda straight.
And lol, NBC was one of the many cheerleaders for the Iraq war, maybe don't use argument to authority fallacies when you're using a source that's perpetuated state propaganda before.
That article doesn't debunk it. It simultaneously says the proof of the tunnels under the hospital is unconvincing and then says "but Israel build basement rooms in the 1980s so it doesn't count."
Is Hamas even that disciplined to act as a unified front? Management or soldiers on the site could've decided themselves to take a revenge on hostages. Especially if they knew they are cornered and there were no use of keeping them alive if they are deadmen too.
Based on accounts from hostages who have been freed, Hamas is at least more disciplined than the IDF
Ha. If Hamas had IDF weapons and tactics, they would use it to eradicate every Jew in the middle east. They don't have such weapons because they aren't disciplined at all. They are so undisciplined, they can't plan for their own futures unless it involves killing Jews. That's why there is no investment in the future of Gaza or its people except for terror tunnels, rockets, and rocket launchers, oh and mass shootings.
Such discipline from Hamas that Gaza can't be trusted with a runway, let alone aircrafts and parts, or other nice things that normal countries get to have when they don't keep putting terrorists in charge.
Funding is not disclipine. I believe your head is in your ass. I’m willing to help with that, even though I’m against genocide and the more than half century occupation and Israel’s current g̶o̶v̶e̶r̶n̶m̶e̶n̶t̶ terrorist regime.
Does any credible, multilateral international body designate Israel as terrorists, or just edgelord know nothings on the internet?
I guess only the UN. Your daddy Netanyahu is a terrorist and you are a shameful person for supporting him.
How dare you support genocide you disgrace of the Israeli people.
Hamas is trying to keep as many alive as they can.
But (a) 2000 pound bunker busters don't discriminate between Palestinians and Israelis and (b) if the IDF comes too close to the hostages, their guards have to decide whether to let them go alive or to kill them.
In the case of the Druze guy, I can definitely see Hamas choosing not to kill him. But in cases of Israelis who also served in the IDF, the rational choice is to kill them instead of giving the IDF a propaganda win.
And finally, sometimes the IDF probably accidentally kills them and tries to blame Hamas if they can get away with it.
This is a war crime. You can't execute POWs just because the enemy is getting close to the POW camp.
They aren't combatants or PoW, taking them hostage was a human rights violation from the beginning.
But Israel can't really expect Hamas to follow Geneva conventions when they themselves violate it a hundreds times as often.
This is a massively false statement. And it's one that should make you reconsider your viewpoint from the ground up.
I don't know if a more incorrect statement could be made about this conflict.
Probably frustration and despair. If your bargaining chip can't get you a bargain, all they're worth is 'revenge' against your opponent.
What a fucked situation.
Thinking on it, it was probably also costing them what are now valuable resources to keep them alive. When it's near impossible to get in and out of Gaza, food, medicine, etc. are worth their weight in gold.
If you don't have the resources to provide for your POWs, the correct solution is parole, not execution.
Hamas are terrorists. They work through terror.
How would you propose safely paroling them? There's already examples of released hostages then being killed by the IDF.
Historically you've shipped them to a neutral nation (like Switzerland) who negotiated their return to their home country on the condition that they not be allowed to rejoin the war effort either for the duration of the war or for a specific time.
None of these things are solutions that haven't been seen before.
Any type of parole has to be at least marginally less dangerous for the hostage than execution.
If they die either way, no it isn't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Alon_Shamriz,_Yotam_Haim,_and_Samer_Talalka
Sounds equally dangerous to me.
Execution has a kill rate of 100%.
Even if paroling is stupidly risky, the ods of death are still <100%.
It would also be seen positively by everyone and one propaganda piece less for Israel to use.
Let’s argue with reason and not pretend that because it has happened before it will happen every single time. Cock-ups happen everywhere.
They did what you suggested with those specific hostages. It was not seen positively by everyone.
They also did it with other hostages that the IDF didn't kill. It was not seen positively by everyone.
So you're right, let's argue with reason. We can reason that what you're suggesting doesn't work based on what they've already done.
My friend, you are literally arguing that executing hostages is the same as attempting to release them under extremely risky conditions because it has failed in the past.
If that is truly your opinion, then I honestly have no more to say. I can’t reasonably argue with that type of opinion.
I still wish you a great day though and hope the fighting ends soon.
No, I am literally arguing that this claim of yours has already been tried and failed:
And the reason I am arguing it is that it has already been tried and failed.
Yeah no mate, you don’t get to hide behind the argument that because it doesn’t have a 100% success rate, we might as well execute them. Murder is always unnacceptable
So instead of letting them free they murder them?
Why would they let them free when they consider them the enemy?
Because now they'll be pursued for the rest of their life. Free a hostage and you have essentially a get out of jail free card.
Do you really believe that any member of hamas would be safe just because they let some hostages go? How would that work? Should they surrender themselves to the IDF while delivering the hostages, just notify them of where they are so they won’t be bombed or how would that all work?
Israel has tip lines set up for Hamas members and members of the Gazan public to call. You call and say, "me and my boys will have an unspecified number of hostages at x location at y time and are looking to surrender. Then you show up at that time with those resources and surrender.
There's a genocide on buddy. They already were.
There wasn't a "genocide" on Oct 6th.
Just cause you weren't paying attention yet doesn't mean it wasn't happening.
Ahh so are you one of those "genocide is what I feel it is" folk or one of those "genocide is when the Jews are still alive" sort of folk?
Did you know there are Jewish palastinians? On top of that, Palestinians are semitic. You can't call racist when the group I'm defending is in the same racial group and contains religious Jewish folk. It ain't about being Jewish, it's about the fact I have seen palastinians getting shot in the street for literally my whole life. My whole life I'm hearing news every now and then how Israel overstepped again and ethnically cleanse an area of palastinians. How they kicked palastinians out of their home. I've seen videos of Israeli settlers kicking palastinians out of their home at gunpoint saying that the state sold them the house. It's a state doing a genocide. It isn't "the Jews" you fucking moron. It's the state of Israel. Interesting how you see Israel as being an ethnostate but don't see their removal of natives as genocide. But that's what happens when you don't think about your ideas longer than 5 seconds.
About 50% of Israeli Jews are descendants Arabs, Persians and North Africans who were forcibly relocated to Israel by the leaders of the Arab world or native to the region. Israel is a reservation, agreed to and established by Arabs as part of the agreement between their leaders and European leaders to overthrow the Ottoman Empire.
In the West Bank or the Gaza strip? Because there are no and have been no settlements in the Gaza Strip in a generation.
So again, is it a genocide because you feel like it or because they're Jews?
Depending on how recently they were executed, it makes perfect sense. As the one holding hostages, you want to set the precedent that the only way to get them out alive is via negotiation.
They died recently enough for the bodies to be quickly identifiable. No DNA tests necessary or anything apparently.
Sounds like they were retreating from the area, and didn't want to bring the hostages with them. In this case, executing the hostages makes strategic sense, as it reinforces the threat that you are willing to do so.
They also have dead Palestinian kids that they've intentionally placed in harms way, entire cities they use as human shields, you know, for sympathy.
"Martyrdom" they call it.
absolutely love how tankies in here are somehow turning this around to be Israels fault
Apparently nowadays anybody who's not a full blown Genocidal ethno-Fascist who approves when "their" people mass murder "human animal" children is a tankie.
It's like how anything left of center used to be deemed Communism in America, with the main difference that this is the ethno-Fascist (the most far-right violent kind of ideology there is) version so anything less than strong approval of ethnic Genocide is deemed Tankie.
It is classic to label and insult people with no value to discuss the main topic at hand. Especially when you call their hypocrisy of response in supporting Ukraine self determination and fight against Russia and their genocidal, demonic, support of killing innocent children in Gaza.
It's a very traditional Fascist technique (not only theirs but, damn, they do love it), to deem criticism of their actions to be motivated by the critics supporting an "enemy" side.
I'm not certain if that's because they're intellectually or emotionally unable to conceive that people can judge words and actions without putting "side" as the top criteria and hence will criticize equally what they see as wrong and point out relentless lying from specifc actors independently of "side", if that's because that's just the kind of argumentation Fascists get indoctrinated/teached to use, or both.
There is no inconsistency in their posture towards Russia and their posture towards Israel for somebody unable to conceive of any judgement criteria more important than "what is their side", since for them tribe is more important than everything and thus excuses everything, even mass murder of chidren.
Unsusprisingly, Zionist arguments are incredibly similar to the ones from the Nazis, including this beautiful example I commented on in my previous post, were the critics were deemed to be Communists, EXACTLY LIKE THE NAZIS used to do.
You're writing this under a Post of "your" people killing hostages. So if you don't support "your" people mass murdering "human animals", you should actually agree with me.
You're the one spouting tribalist shit - clearly you see Zionists as "your" people.
Tribalists always think those who are against the actions of "their" group or do not trust the words from the leaders of "their"group must do so because they support some "other", enemy people - a posture you consistently displayed in the way you tried "othering" critics of your favorite mass murderers on your first post by accusing them of being Authoritarian Communists and are trying to do the same to me on this post by implying I support Hamas.
Either you're too limited in your humanity to be aware that normal human beings generally hold Humanist Principles which are independent of tribe (such as "though shall not mass murder people because of their ethnicity") and hence their criticism is based on the character the words and actions of those they criticise (rather than be like you and put "side" above everything else including one's humanity), or you're just too lazy and repeatedly use the very old, very traditional Fascist "line of attack" (especially beloved of ethno-Facists such as Nazis and Zionists) of accusing critics of being part of some "out group" which the Fascists deem an enemy.
Oh really? I just stated neutrally that "Hamas killing civillians is Bad and none other than Hamas' fault."
You had to show up and make it all about teams justifying things.
Stop trying to gaslight me
Your whole post that started this thread is:
So just now you outright lied when your wrote:
Further, a person with a bunch of flags on their profile (for the record and in case you change it the flags are of Ukranie, EU, Taiwan and Israel) claiming they're not about "teams" is either a ridiculously self-deluded person or a shameless liar. People don't go around parading their favorite nations or blocks of nations when they're not into supporting "teams".
"This is Hamas Fault and Hamas' alone, no matter what tankies try to tell you"
Yes, both messages are the same. I'm the first I'm explicitly warning of a group trying to twist the narrative, but they're the same.
No, you can absolutely be neutral and have Flags and not be on Teams The EU Is my Team, the others are not. The others are symbols of who I think is innocent (or in the case of the middle east: less guilty)
I mean, I still hang up the Pride Flag during Pride Month, despite not being gay or anyhoe related to them or "on their team" simply because I, from my neutral position, have decided that their Position is the one I deem more "just"
Yeah, like... Somehow people are forgetting the terrorist organization that created the situation isreal is using as an excuse to commit genocide IS STILL A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION. I feel like people are projecting the US dem vs repub conflict on this, and feeling like because one side is bad the other side has to be good, rite? But in reality it's just a whole lotta murder. Pretty one sided sure but it's not like they're killing hostages in self defense. Not out here trying to be both siding but trying to look at things objectively and realistically and for some reason writing it as a public comment so people can yell at me for being antisemitic and antisemites can yell at me for not being antisemitic.
Says the guy who clearly doesn't know the foundational Israeli military groups who would later become the actual Israeli military were avowed terrorist organizations who routinely bombed civilians and murdered Muslims for being Muslim and against Israeli terror.
You speak out of my heart right now. I couldn't have put it into better words.
It got so bad, that I once saw a Comment unironically advocating for the genocide of all Israelis having 200 + upvotes. This was when I put the Israel flag into my Profile.
I'll let you in on a secret: The Israel Flag in my Profile? I'm actually very conflicted about Israel. But the way I was seeing Israel unrightfully being bashed, the Hamas terror organization advocating for the literal text-book-definition genocide of Israelis praised, I just felt I had to put it in there.
Anyways, yeah, I wish we could have civilized discussions about this. But I am afraid this isn't possible. For whatever reason, civilized political discussions aren't possible anymore in the english-speaking internet (the Swiss Internet is still somewhat uninfected, but it also seems to be getting worse sadly)
I wish I could just block politics in general, but I don't want to let the genocide-advocates to reign unopposed. I don't want their opinions to seem in any way acceptable.
Good on you.
I think people are trying to reduce the most complicated problems in global politics into a simple good guy vs. bad guy narrative and that leads people down to all kinds of crazy thoughts.
To me the real enemy is hatred. Hatred of Palestinians have resulted in Israel having the corrupt and incompetent leadership of Netanyahu. Hatred of Israelis has led Palestinian to corrupt and incompetent leadership of Fatah on the West Bank and the corrupt and genocidal leadership of Hamas in Gaza. Those promoting hatred of either side are just pushing for the conflict to continue and like all conflicts in densely populated areas, there will be a lot of civilian casualties. The claim to be very upset by the loss of life but their actions indicate they want it to continue until "their side" kills the other.
Also how do you get flags on your username? I think I'll put both an Israeli and Palestinian flag on mine. If people that hate the people of either place want to hate, then I'm fine with them hating me too.
But you're advocating for genocide?
Taking Israel's side is like taking Russia's side.
Both are objectively doing the same thing.
That is the Tankie position. End justifies the means. Fascism is justified.
It's you.
awful take
gaslighting a Nation into thinking they're at fault for you killing their people is fucking awful
Do you also think that the US is responsible for 9/11?
Or Russia is at fault for the Terror Attack on the Opera recently?
No, trying to twist the truth so that the anti-western side is the good one, trying to defend them, that is the real tankie stance
The US knew that a major attack was being planned by bin laden months before 9/11. Bush, purposefully or ignorantly, ignored or minimized these warnings directly leading to the attack.
There's also the aspect of it where the US funded and trained bin Laden prior to the attack because he was useful to us in the 80's.
And the US warned Russia of the Moscow Attack
Does that mean that the US/Russia is responsible for the Terror attack against them?
Please don't talk around it. "I think that yes/no [because ...]"
Because I think that Terror Attacks are always the fault of the Terrorists killing people
The same way I think that incidents of rape are always the fault of the rapist and never the victim.
Terrorism is politics by other means.
If you deny a people redress of grievances, say by refusing to participate in the international criminal court, you can't be surprised when desperate people act out of desperation.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
I'm not saying that it's right, but it certainly didn't justify the 20 years we spent playing in the desert, nor the genocide Israel is commiting on the Palestinians now.
Pretty sure my take is the opposite.
But yeah if you think that we were blameless on 9/11 disregards the history of US foreign politicy.
And Israel? Pretty sure that the last 70 years of illegal occupation had nothing to do with October 7th, right? Or "self defense" lasting 11 months? Getting pretty close to operation Iraqi Freedom there bud.
Whatever the US may have done does not justify the killing of thousands of civilians. If that was the way the world worked than any civilian deaths the US inflicted after 9/11 are also justified by the same logic.
Rationalizations of terrorist acts is really insane. There's no moral high ground you can gain from this, the best you can accomplish is to say "both sides are bad" which accomplishes nothing.
Far better to denounce terrorism and work to make a distinction between the terrorists and people that have harmed who are not terrorists.
How many millions did we kill in revenge?
Many many times more. An eye for an eye leaves the world blind.
Israel is doing the same thing now. Only not even pretending to rebuild a nation.
This is where "But yeah if you think those countries weren't entirely blameless disregards these country's support of terrorism"
I won't though, because unlike you I don't think there's any valid rationalization for deliberately targeting civilians. That would just be me lowering myself to the level you lowered yourself to by rationalizing the targeting of civilians.
But you don't really have any kind of argument against killing civilians because you've already suggested that it's acceptable to do so.
Why don't you apply this to 9/11 and October 7? What al Qaeda and Hamas did are an "eye for an eye" mentality aren't they? Why not just do the sensible thing and denounce these "eye for an eye" actions as inexcusable?
So you're saying that genocide is okay if you agree with it? TANKIE DETECTED.
Normal people are pro Ukraine and pro Israel.....maybe you should ask why you think differently.
Um genocide is bad?
Sickening...
@Threeme2189@sh.itjust.works This reply getting downvoted shows Lemmy political opinions pretty well
I downvoted it for two reasons. One, it doesn't contribute to discussion, and two, it's telling you how to feel, like how Trump's tweets ending in "Sad!".
You should feel sick when a far right religious dictatorship kidnaps innocent people and then executed them for the "glory of Islam." It is sickening.
I do. I don't need to be told to feel that way.
It really does. After a while, you get so exhausted that you simply zone out of these tiresome, often idiotic political opinions.
It was exactly the same with reddit, come to think of it...
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Hamas murders hostages and leftists are still blaming Israel. The left is no better than Nazis.
"The left" blames Hamas for the kidnapping and murder of these innocent Israeli hostages, because they're the ones who did it.
"The left" blames the Israeli government for the murder of 186,000 innocent Palestinian civilians, because they're the ones who did it.
Do you get it now?
The top comments on this post alternate between blaming Israel, claiming the IDF accidentally killed the hostages and blamed Hamas, and claiming the IDF executed the hostages themselves as a psyop.
There is clearly a huge portion of liberals that have extreme issues when it comes to treating this conflict with any sort of nuance or objectivety. They see the conflict primarily though the lens of the US culture wars, are extremely comfortable with declaring themselves informed after reading a few curated social media posts and watching a John Oliver video, and are extremely confident that anyone who disagrees with them is either morally or intellectually inferior.
That mentality works fine when you're dealing with straightforward issues like legalizing weed or trans bathroom laws, but completely fails here. Geopolitics in general is extremely complicated, the middle east is a particularly complicated issue for geopolitics, and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a particularly complicated issue for the middle east. Despite all this you have people running around with an extreme amount of self assurance that their barely informed zero nuance outlook is unquestionably correct. It's absolutely insufferable.
Because Israel has already proven themselves untrustworthy, even if what this story is reporting is credible on its own.
Israel has the full force of American military support against a nation and a people who've been systematically oppressed for 70 years. They bear the responsibility for the outcome of this conflict far more than any other.
What sort of nuance and objectivity would you like to see from the huge portion of liberals you mentioned?
I feel that this is not an honest question, but an attempt for me to state more concrete positions which you will then attack me for using misinformation and bad faith emotional arguments. I'm guessing it'll be in the form of going bullet point by bullet point, and then with some witty last sentence implying I'm a bad person or a mossad sock puppet.
I'll state a few obvious ones, in case I'm wrong
The phrases "intifadah revolution" and "from river to the sea" are blantant antisemitic dog whistles. They are direct references to previous attempts to destroy Israel and terror attacks on Jews worldwide. Despite this, they are still ultimately accepted in liberal circles
Liberals repeatedly refer to Israel as a European colonial ethnostate state. This is extremely misleading on multiple aspects. The most notable is 22 percent of the Israeli population is Arab, while the largest ethnic subgroup of Jews are mizrahi Jews.
I've heard the Nakba mentioned a million times, but I never hear discussion about how basically every Arab state forced their entire Jewish population into Israel via violence and ethnic cleansing. Hence the reason for the large Mizrahi Jewish population
College campuses have handled antisemitism claims with kid gloves, because the antisemitism comes from progressive coded groups. Their response would have been completely different if conservative groups were acting in the same way, or if black, Asian, or queer folks were targeted in a similar manner.
It is exactly this. You attack "the left" and "liberals" as though they are the same thing (they very much are not) without mentioning anything specific, so it's hard for me (the left; not a liberal) to defend any position. I suspected a bunch of implied strawman fallacies was hidden behind this hand-waving and frankly I think this is a cowardly way to argue your point. So let's do the bullet points.
"From the river to the sea" is not a blatant anything. Yes, it has been used by Hamas, but it has also been used by Likud, for basically the opposite meaning. Therefore context must be absolutely appropriate in the understanding of the intent of the words. If a person or group who are in favour of Palestinian sovereignty and/or a single-state solution use the phrase, you can quite fairly assume that they are talking about this issue, rather than calling for the extermination of an ethnic group. It's dishonest in the extreme to label anyone who calls for Palestinians to be free an antisemite. As for the other phrase you mentioned, it seems like you are saying anyone who mentions an intifada is antisemitic. That seems ridiculous, and possibly you need to give more context.
Israel is an apartheid regime. It is a settler colonial project. It meets these definitions, and either you're for settler colonialism or you're against Israel in its current manifestation.
The reason you've not heard about other states doing other things is because we are talking about Israel, and the ways in which Arabic people are opressed there. The mistreatment of Jewish people in other places at other times does not pardon or imply permission for the mistreatment of Arabs anywhere.
It's not about being "progressive coded". It's context, again. If a group's aim is to restore human rights for people, and/or oversee equality then any accusation of racism should be considered with this context. Conversely, an organisation which has historically made horrific racist/homophobic statements should be considered differently in the same scenario. Again, it's hard to pinpoint exactly which groups and which incidents you are talking about, as you give no examples.
Lol, every fucking time. The initial question was in bad faith, the response has misinformation, and there's always some nonsense moral implication. Yet if I just didn't respond there would be someone commenting something along the lines how "it's pretty telling" I don't engage with this crap.
"This crap" being a rational take. It seems like you've made your mind up, and any contrary viewpoint be damned.
Side note: it's a bad faith argument to attach everyone to some arbitrary group, fail to define that group, and then attack it.
There is absolutely nothing I could show you that could change your mind. You phrased your original comment as a good faith question, but in reality you were trying to give yourself ammunition to attack me with.
Your take isn't even rational. If I thought there was any chance of you changing your mind, I would go through your comment detail by detail showing what arguments you have that are wrong, where you twisted my words, and what claims you avoided.
You'd just respond with more bullshit and more bad faith arguments, until I eventually lost my temper. Arguing with someone like you is a complete waste of time.
I haven't once argued in bad faith. You, on the other hand have essentially forbidden any criticism of Israel whatsoever, made no arguments except those where you attack me (hint: this is called an ad hominem fallacy) and continuously hand-waved without actually stooping so low as to tell me where I'm wrong; you just claim that I am but you can't be bothered to say why/how.
Bonus points for your "I know you are but what am I" on the subject of open-mindedness.
If this is you at your coolest, I guess if you were to actually lose your temper we'd just get an incoherent string of characters as repeatedly you smash your keyboard into your face to make a point.
Okay man, believe what you want to believe. I've already wasted enough time on you.
Maybe if you had used it constructively instead, by, say, making any coherent point whatsoever? Then we wouldn't be here would we.
Idk man, if you have hostages taken and your response is full all out assault, your basically signaling you don't actually care about those hostages. You are practically putting the hostage takers in the position where execution is the only option. Cause that's the threat when you take hostages. This is pretty simple. So don't get all "Hamas killed the hostages" when Israel did nothing to save them. Might as well pulled the trigger themselves.