Matrix let-down

stravanasu@lemmy.ca to Fediverse@lemmy.world – 86 points –

I've been trying to use Matrix to replace sites like Discord or Slack. But it seems that if a user creates an invitation-only room in a server, then invited users who are registered on other servers get errors when trying to join. Not very useful error messages either: "Failed to join room". (In my case, I tried creating accounts and rooms at nitro.chat and then at converser.eu, but friends registered at matrix.org don't manage to join).

Quite a let-down. Anyone who's facing the same problem and has maybe managed to solve it?

56

Anyone who says Matrix is a suitable replacement for Discord is delusional.

But you can self-host Revolt chat, which is very similar.

Revolt with federation (they are hinting XMPP) would be very nice

https://developers.revolt.chat/faq.html

As of right now, Revolt does not feature any federation and it is not in our feature roadmap.

That's why I said "would"

You also said "they are hinting at XMPP" when they're not even hinting at adding federation.

Below the sentence you quoted

However, this does not necessarily mean federation is off the table, possible avenues are:

Implement our own federation protocol
Implement a promising up and coming federation protocol, polyproto
Implement the Matrix protocol (unlikely, obtuse and unstable)
  • Implement the XMPP protocol (battle-tested and stable)

Yes, I read the whole thing, thanks. However it's listed right next to several other (basically every) option and if it's not even on their roadmap, it's guaranteed not to happen for many years, if ever.

One can only hope, but it is still very promising without.

Do you use it?

I tried it but the teeny tiny file sizes are a dealbreaker.

Have you tried wormhole?

Never heard of it.

Check it out. A lot of the systems like Discord Etc limit file sizes so vigorously. Because they operate like men in the middle. Can you send them the file first. Then whoever you're sending it to can download it from them. It's adding extra steps to the whole thing. With something like Wormhole you can even link a file from your phone. As long as you are on Wi-Fi and not going to be chewing through data minutes LOL. All the app does is connect the end points. Once they're connected then you send the file directly to whomever you want. And the only limits on file sizes are realistically at the endpoints.

I mean there are dozens of sites like this. I can host my own media on my server and share it with a link. Except the "extra steps" you're referring to are all done automatically on the backend (the submitter just clicks "upload" and selects the file and the recipients just click the play button) and the "extra steps" required here and manual and annoying. In the case of Discord or similar.

The site isn't hosting the file. Sure you can host your own FTP etc. But there is a lot of security risks and vulnerabilities that arise because of that. You can even host your own Magic wormhole. It's under MIT license. Just have to open the ports Etc. It should however theoretically have a lot less attack surface than HTTP FTP and similar protocols. Nothing is invulnerable of course.

The site isn't hosting the file.

According to the site, it is:

In addition, we store your encrypted files on our servers for 24 hours so the share link will keep working for your recipient even after you close the Wormhole site.

Not that it matters, because none of that is the problem. Hosting my own media on my own server is much more convenient than p2p transfers and equally secure. The problem is the "extra steps" require to transfer files this way.

It's simply acting as a connector. And directing traffic around Nat Etc for lay people or those who don't want to bother with setting up and securing server software or such things. Unless of course I'm completing the two and they aren't related. It's possible I suppose. But I've used the app a couple of times. And I don't ever remember having to sit and wait for a file upload. It was instant. Like the file being hashed and info being generated. Then slapping you with a QR code or a string to give to the person you're sending it to Initiate the transfer

In my experience it looks like a case of matrix clients not doing a good job of communicating that things happening in the background haven't finished yet, and throwing generic error messages (a bit like lemmy-ui does sometimes).

I've been able to join invite-only rooms on other instances - it said 'failed' at first, but when I went back later it turned out that I had actually joined.

What are some of the popular Matrix clients that you've seen have this problem? And are they open source?

I've been curious about Matrix for a while as a potential Discord replacement, but haven't actually tried it. Might be interesting to check it out and see whether I can contribute to one of the clients somehow.

Matrix definitely has its problems. Recently I've moved to a private matrix install and a lot of the issues I was having went away. I think the matrix.org domain is overloaded and has a bunch of weird errors because of it. If your account or rooms are hosted there and you have issues I'd try running somewhere else and see if you have the same problems.

Like someone else said the clients have issues too. A lot of them don't know how to report the errors they run into so they spit out garbage. There isn't a single client that works perfectly but there are a few that are good enough to use if you aren't using them for mission critical communication. It's stupid but it is what it is.

Discord sucks ass and no one will convince me otherwise. I have no desire to support them and their constant nitro spam. I'd rather use something like matrix and see how it develops.

Lots of people say this. I host my own Conduit server. Still have to wait 5 seconds every time I open the app for messages to sync. Very annoying when I'm just trying to shoot a message and get back to whatever it is I'm doing.

I want to use matrix so bad but matrix clients suck and there's no voice channels like discord

Prose is an extremely good looking crosd platform XMPP client coming out very soon, I'm hoping that will help.

Currently XMPP is my preferred federated messaging platform, but to say the clients are bad would be an understatement

Does it support threads? That's the feature that is usually missing in XMPP clients

They are working on that, yes.

But I would rather have no threads than those like Element has... what a mess 🫠

I'm not sure, it might be on their website. I hope so.

Yes it does support but best on desktop. On android only pretty much "legacy" and not anymore worked on element which has performance issues

Looks very promising! thank you for sharing. Seems worth trying and supporting.

B-b-but the Fediverse told me that XMPP was embrace-extend-extinguished by Google!!?!

it kinda was but it seems to be getting more popular again

the protocol has also changed a huge amount since google used it, but its still quite a small community as far as messaging apps go

Matrix is a protocol, unlike discord. The problems often come with the different clients. I personally suggest fluffychat wherever I go since that is the most usable in my experience. Element I have installed as a backup on all my devices if I need to troubleshoot.

Same as with apple‘s „iforgot“ service: the privilege of privacy comes with responsibility. You must either take care of a couple things yourself or pay someone to do it. On discord, a huge margin of people pays with real money and the rest with their data.

To the topic: Matrix rooms have a version and the server you make them on matters a lot. Therefore I would stay on org if none of you know your way around. If you have skills, make your own and configure it in the most non individual way possible for maximum compatibility. If people cant join even when you invited them, you might have to check if the servers each federate correctly. If not, switch servers or tell your admin.

Edit: you‘ll probably get advice at !matrix@lemmy.ml

the thing that drives me absolutely into matrix-hate-rage is the scrolling. if youre in a matrix space with lots of little different windows attempting to scroll through almost any context is a crapshoot at best.

i like the idea of matrix, but its implementation is hot garbage.

One of my favorite matrix games is playing "guess where it thinks the unread marker should be."

I'm just as likely to be right as it is.

Me too! When I’m scrolling in a room reading a backlog it will jump all over the place. I don’t know why but that is super annoying. It’s as if it’s some html / css anchoring going horribly wrong or something. First I thought it was caused by the client, but it happens in Element as well as Fluffy chat. I try to avoid Matrix as much as possible because of that.

Ive had a better time with good old irc. But I hope matrix takes over...

IRC can actually be quite good. The main problem is the super outdated popular networks like libera.chat, but if your run your own IRC server with modern clients it works nicely (or you can use a good bouncer like Soju). Supplement it with a Mumble or Jitsi-meet server and you got at least a functional equivalent to Discord, even though of course not nearly as polished or easy to use as Discord.

I run it off yunohost which comes with it by default. Im not saying its the best to have servers come with it by default, but I sure use it quite a bit!

That error happens because the room federation sync takes longer than the join client-server request timeout. Just try again.

It works great for a closed group of people, all on one instance. Another data point that federation is hard.

Matrix is not quite like Discord, but we have Revolt. Try that. It's a discord clone.

I can make calls (voice and video) and they work great.

Encrypted channels/DMs for family

Element (android) is pretty good

Cinny (web access) is not as good, but still good enough to replace discord for family chat.

Which client do you use? Desktop is the best working, second android element slow and laggy but fullest implementation so far, worst are element x which they created only to test still draft phase feature speeding up syncing but otherwise half backed. There is no other third party clients which would be significantly complaint with the protocol

I've tried different clients: Element web, desktop, and android, and FluffyChat desktop and android. The problems seems to come, as other have written, when the matrix.org server is involved: it's people from their handle there which experience glitches joining rooms in other servers. It seems this "part" of the fediverse still needs a lot of development.

Yes, while desktop is mostly working well, other clients are far from being usable. I totally agree with this and choices of matrix foundation are not making it any better imo. Their inventing "new features" and not polishing current ecosystem, is not a best strategic choice

Agree 110%! It's sad because it pushes back those people who were curious about alternatives and were willing to try. Hopefully things will improve with time...