I personally feel like having a voiced main character usually has the opposite effect. Being able to project myself into an unvoiced protagonist is far more immersive.
I think I'm the exact opposite. An unvoiced main character often feels incomplete and breaks my immersion. Unless there is a believable reason for the characters muteness.
An unvoiced character =/= a mute character. In the first VtMB, the main character was unvoiced but had tons of dialogue options.
I know it's not a literal muteness, but it still feels like there is a disconnect between an unvoiced PC and voiced NPCs that respond to dialogue that was never spoken. Maybe I just struggle with projecting my own identity into a character that literally can't talk, but I never feel connected or as immersed in games that don't have a voiced main character.
It's ultimately a purely subjective argument and there is no better method in the voiced vs unvoiced debate.
Have you tried reading the dialog from the mc in your head with the voice you want them to have?
Yeah, but the conversation still feels distractingly one sided and disconnected
:(
My mistake then, I misunderstood your intent and only meant to provide clarity to the discussion. And I completely agree that it's a subjective argument that has no "right answer". Depending on the game, I've greatly appreciated and been put off by both methods.
Mass Effect and The Witcher for example, hell yeah, love me those voiced protagonists. Brought so much personality to those games. Fallout 4 and Dragon Age 3 on the other hand... well I'll say they weren't my cup of tea.
Fallout New Vegas and the Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines, loved the control I had over who my character "was", and I have simply never felt that level of control using a voiced character. And having that control brought a different kind of immersion to the games for me.
Really about bringing the right tool for the job. All I can say is that I hope a voiced protagonist is the right tool for the job in VtMB2, because there are many features the first game had that will almost certainly have to be sacrificed at the alter of voice acting. Including the item at the top of my personal wish-list, completely rewritten Malkavian dialogue.
Anyway, sorry for the rant and the mis-understanding.
And it's pretty much the opposite of the first game
NOOOO!!
Voiced protagonists just limits dialogue so so much! Just look at Fallout 4 :(
The original Bloodlines is one of my all time favorite games, mostly because of the 10/10 dialogue.
Not if done right. IE; look at "the not-gold standard" Baldurs Gate 3.
BG3 doesn't have a fully voiced protsgonist.
Yeah it's actually kind of disappointing, but understandable, given the way they set up premade vs custom characters.
I honestly can't think of a choice heavy RPG that's done a good job of a voiced character since Mass Effect and Dragon Age 2. And EA did everything they could to sabotage DA2.
And Mass Effect mostly only worked fully voiced because Shepard was their own fleshed out character and we were just guiding them on being nice or mean and helping them collect all the stuff they needed to beat the reapers.
I'm not surprised they choose to go down this route, but it does make me a bit bummed. Fair to assume we won't be seeing a return to clans having completely rewritten dialogue. Now, no matter who I try to make, I'll just be the male or female "Vampire Shepard".
Wasn't Bloodlines 2 supposed to be released like 5 years ago now? It'll get out of my vaporware pile when I see it in action.
I frankly haven't liked anything i've heard and seen these days about this game. Feels very unlike the first one. One of the things i loved about the first one's dialogue is that you had every type of follow up you could reasonably think of when having a conversation, with each clan having their own style of logic and speech. With voiced protagonists i have never found that to be the case.
Voiced also means either you listen to the dialog you already read in the dialog selection or you replace the selection menu with generic prompts like friendly, threatening, silly, etc and then don't know what you are actually going to say. Neither of which I enjoy.
The Chinese Room's Bloodlines 2 might well turn out alright in its own way, but I'm sad we'll never get the full Brian Mitsoda-led sequel. The first game had such a distinct and charming style, writing and atmosphere and I doubt this studio will be able (or even interested in trying to) replicate that. It's especially a shame that Rik Schaffer came back to do music for the sequel for Hardsuit Labs, but I'm guessing they'll go in another direction there as well. His Bloodlines OST is so iconic and was a huge part of the atmosphere.
I'm assuming you are talking about Redemption and not the first Bloodlines. In the first Bloodlines unless you were Malkavian all the Clans had generally had the same dialogues with minor variances were it made sense. IE Tremere talking to Strauss, Nosferatus having the initial conversations with people, etc.
We really don't know enough to tell whether it's gonna work out or not, feels like people are just using it to confirm their existing bias at this point. Vampyr was a AA game with a voiced protagonist and it was excellent, really elevated the game further for example. Maybe it will be the same here.
I'm not sure how to respond to this. Vampyr reviews were all over the place, and John being voiced was one of the criticisms.
I actually didn't have much of a problem with that. Well, I guess it contributed to the "illusion of freedom with walls too obvious" attitude a bit.
It really doesn't when you're talking about an RPG. If this sequel is anything at all like the first one, the ambiguity of the protagonist makes it much easier to see them as anything you want. Including how they might sound if they are not voiced.
At least make sure there's options, like in Saints Row 2.
I agree, Mass Effect / The Witcher is vastly more immersive than silent protagonist alternatives like Fallout 3, Skyrim or The Outer Worlds. That said though, Skyrim and The Outer Worlds could never work with a voice protagonist, Skyrim because the variation is just far to intense to make any logistical sense (as in so many race+gender combos). And The Outer Worlds dialog trees and complexity there would be crazy expensive to voice out fully. Though both are budget bound so with AI assistance it might be possible without super intense spending.
The Witcher works because Geralt is a character, same with Shephard. Joe Generic in Fallout 4 is so boring because they are trying to still have the make your own character aspect intact.
Thats the key here, Sheperd, Geralt, and Henry of Skalitz are all characters in their own right. Ya just get to choose what they do.
What then about Cyberpunk? It's not like you can't do customization of background and looks when you voice the protagonist
Its less that ya cant and its moreso that its expensive. Also I said nothing about the inability to do something, also V is similarly to the others I listed their own character.
And I addressed the expensive part. I'll even argue that every playable character, even silent ones, are their own character. No game, besides Fallout 3, starts from birth and lets you be whomever as you go. But even in Fallout 3 you've still got many things pre-defined, parents, general backstory etc. Same with Skyrim, you're the dragonborn no matter what you do. It's really just a budget thing. To the point of the article though I think it adds to immersion to have a voiced protagonist. But others are of a diametrical opinion.
I was coming at this from a blank slate approach, think New Vegas, Morrowind, or Baldurs gate 3 ( assuming no premade character or Dark urge).
Sure, but none of those still lets you say whatever you want, you're still locked to a few alternatives that effectively shoehorn you into a character. In the future, with the aid of AI you could match what you personally say or type to an intent and then map that to pre-baked responses. With attacking you or running away as a response to aggression and a "haha very funny but back to the matter at hand" when you're being silly. And it's only when we're there that I'd, personally, say a "silent" protagonist is as immersive as a voiced one.
If I see a game with an AI voiced protag im avoiding it. Also I prefer my protags to be silent in RPGs, the constant yapping in fallout 4 pisses me off.
No I mean you're the voice for the protagonist, the game reacts to what you say (or type if you prefer). And we're all different in what we prefer!
That tech or atleast the typing part of it has existed for a long time. Old text adventure games used it and even some of the earliest CRPGs used it like wasteland 1, also honorable mention to fallout 1 and 2 which had a watered down version. Theres a reason ya dont see it anymore, that reason is cause its fucking infuriating. Seriously half the time I try playing those I turn into a demented murder hobo.
I swear to fuck if I see a modern game go "I dont know what 'talk' is" im gonna punch the lead dev.
Yes and no, what they did is they used keywords and synonym lists but they were extremely basic and you needed to build a mental model of how dialogue "works" that fit the developers. Hardly ideal. But with LLMs and NLP and some clever programming making NPCs that react convincingly to your typed in questions / interactions isn't far off.
I personally feel like having a voiced main character usually has the opposite effect. Being able to project myself into an unvoiced protagonist is far more immersive.
I think I'm the exact opposite. An unvoiced main character often feels incomplete and breaks my immersion. Unless there is a believable reason for the characters muteness.
An unvoiced character =/= a mute character. In the first VtMB, the main character was unvoiced but had tons of dialogue options.
I know it's not a literal muteness, but it still feels like there is a disconnect between an unvoiced PC and voiced NPCs that respond to dialogue that was never spoken. Maybe I just struggle with projecting my own identity into a character that literally can't talk, but I never feel connected or as immersed in games that don't have a voiced main character.
It's ultimately a purely subjective argument and there is no better method in the voiced vs unvoiced debate.
Have you tried reading the dialog from the mc in your head with the voice you want them to have?
Yeah, but the conversation still feels distractingly one sided and disconnected
:(
My mistake then, I misunderstood your intent and only meant to provide clarity to the discussion. And I completely agree that it's a subjective argument that has no "right answer". Depending on the game, I've greatly appreciated and been put off by both methods.
Mass Effect and The Witcher for example, hell yeah, love me those voiced protagonists. Brought so much personality to those games. Fallout 4 and Dragon Age 3 on the other hand... well I'll say they weren't my cup of tea.
Fallout New Vegas and the Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines, loved the control I had over who my character "was", and I have simply never felt that level of control using a voiced character. And having that control brought a different kind of immersion to the games for me.
Really about bringing the right tool for the job. All I can say is that I hope a voiced protagonist is the right tool for the job in VtMB2, because there are many features the first game had that will almost certainly have to be sacrificed at the alter of voice acting. Including the item at the top of my personal wish-list, completely rewritten Malkavian dialogue.
Anyway, sorry for the rant and the mis-understanding.
And it's pretty much the opposite of the first game
NOOOO!!
Voiced protagonists just limits dialogue so so much! Just look at Fallout 4 :(
The original Bloodlines is one of my all time favorite games, mostly because of the 10/10 dialogue.
Not if done right. IE; look at "the not-gold standard" Baldurs Gate 3.
BG3 doesn't have a fully voiced protsgonist.
Yeah it's actually kind of disappointing, but understandable, given the way they set up premade vs custom characters.
I honestly can't think of a choice heavy RPG that's done a good job of a voiced character since Mass Effect and Dragon Age 2. And EA did everything they could to sabotage DA2.
And Mass Effect mostly only worked fully voiced because Shepard was their own fleshed out character and we were just guiding them on being nice or mean and helping them collect all the stuff they needed to beat the reapers.
I'm not surprised they choose to go down this route, but it does make me a bit bummed. Fair to assume we won't be seeing a return to clans having completely rewritten dialogue. Now, no matter who I try to make, I'll just be the male or female "Vampire Shepard".
Wasn't Bloodlines 2 supposed to be released like 5 years ago now? It'll get out of my vaporware pile when I see it in action.
I frankly haven't liked anything i've heard and seen these days about this game. Feels very unlike the first one. One of the things i loved about the first one's dialogue is that you had every type of follow up you could reasonably think of when having a conversation, with each clan having their own style of logic and speech. With voiced protagonists i have never found that to be the case.
Voiced also means either you listen to the dialog you already read in the dialog selection or you replace the selection menu with generic prompts like friendly, threatening, silly, etc and then don't know what you are actually going to say. Neither of which I enjoy.
The Chinese Room's Bloodlines 2 might well turn out alright in its own way, but I'm sad we'll never get the full Brian Mitsoda-led sequel. The first game had such a distinct and charming style, writing and atmosphere and I doubt this studio will be able (or even interested in trying to) replicate that. It's especially a shame that Rik Schaffer came back to do music for the sequel for Hardsuit Labs, but I'm guessing they'll go in another direction there as well. His Bloodlines OST is so iconic and was a huge part of the atmosphere.
I'm assuming you are talking about Redemption and not the first Bloodlines. In the first Bloodlines unless you were Malkavian all the Clans had generally had the same dialogues with minor variances were it made sense. IE Tremere talking to Strauss, Nosferatus having the initial conversations with people, etc.
We really don't know enough to tell whether it's gonna work out or not, feels like people are just using it to confirm their existing bias at this point. Vampyr was a AA game with a voiced protagonist and it was excellent, really elevated the game further for example. Maybe it will be the same here.
I'm not sure how to respond to this. Vampyr reviews were all over the place, and John being voiced was one of the criticisms.
I actually didn't have much of a problem with that. Well, I guess it contributed to the "illusion of freedom with walls too obvious" attitude a bit.
It really doesn't when you're talking about an RPG. If this sequel is anything at all like the first one, the ambiguity of the protagonist makes it much easier to see them as anything you want. Including how they might sound if they are not voiced.
At least make sure there's options, like in Saints Row 2.
I agree, Mass Effect / The Witcher is vastly more immersive than silent protagonist alternatives like Fallout 3, Skyrim or The Outer Worlds. That said though, Skyrim and The Outer Worlds could never work with a voice protagonist, Skyrim because the variation is just far to intense to make any logistical sense (as in so many race+gender combos). And The Outer Worlds dialog trees and complexity there would be crazy expensive to voice out fully. Though both are budget bound so with AI assistance it might be possible without super intense spending.
The Witcher works because Geralt is a character, same with Shephard. Joe Generic in Fallout 4 is so boring because they are trying to still have the make your own character aspect intact.
Thats the key here, Sheperd, Geralt, and Henry of Skalitz are all characters in their own right. Ya just get to choose what they do.
What then about Cyberpunk? It's not like you can't do customization of background and looks when you voice the protagonist
Its less that ya cant and its moreso that its expensive. Also I said nothing about the inability to do something, also V is similarly to the others I listed their own character.
And I addressed the expensive part. I'll even argue that every playable character, even silent ones, are their own character. No game, besides Fallout 3, starts from birth and lets you be whomever as you go. But even in Fallout 3 you've still got many things pre-defined, parents, general backstory etc. Same with Skyrim, you're the dragonborn no matter what you do. It's really just a budget thing. To the point of the article though I think it adds to immersion to have a voiced protagonist. But others are of a diametrical opinion.
I was coming at this from a blank slate approach, think New Vegas, Morrowind, or Baldurs gate 3 ( assuming no premade character or Dark urge).
Sure, but none of those still lets you say whatever you want, you're still locked to a few alternatives that effectively shoehorn you into a character. In the future, with the aid of AI you could match what you personally say or type to an intent and then map that to pre-baked responses. With attacking you or running away as a response to aggression and a "haha very funny but back to the matter at hand" when you're being silly. And it's only when we're there that I'd, personally, say a "silent" protagonist is as immersive as a voiced one.
If I see a game with an AI voiced protag im avoiding it. Also I prefer my protags to be silent in RPGs, the constant yapping in fallout 4 pisses me off.
No I mean you're the voice for the protagonist, the game reacts to what you say (or type if you prefer). And we're all different in what we prefer!
That tech or atleast the typing part of it has existed for a long time. Old text adventure games used it and even some of the earliest CRPGs used it like wasteland 1, also honorable mention to fallout 1 and 2 which had a watered down version. Theres a reason ya dont see it anymore, that reason is cause its fucking infuriating. Seriously half the time I try playing those I turn into a demented murder hobo.
I swear to fuck if I see a modern game go "I dont know what 'talk' is" im gonna punch the lead dev.
Yes and no, what they did is they used keywords and synonym lists but they were extremely basic and you needed to build a mental model of how dialogue "works" that fit the developers. Hardly ideal. But with LLMs and NLP and some clever programming making NPCs that react convincingly to your typed in questions / interactions isn't far off.
Oof. Another Fo4 style diaster. At least it won't hurt modding the same way, but its still a lot of voice acting for little benefit.
That's quite a conclusion to jump to. Mass Effect has a fully voiced player character and it is great.
FO4 variable voice characters were pretty good.