I've used this analogy before, but threads is like a huge, 5k passenger cruise ship docking in a small town in Alaska. You don't have to know ahead of time that the 2 public bathrooms, one at the general store and the other at McDonalds, aren't going to be enough. You can also forecast the complaining about how everything isn't really tourist ready. It will suck for everyone. The small museum will be overrun and damaged, the people will be treated like dirt. It's an easy forecast.
Here's the important bit, just because they've never been in the cruise line business, doesn't mean you have to give them a chance to ruin your town.
edit: made sentence make sense.
The problem with analogies is that they are not literally the thing that you're analogizing, so there's going to always be parts of the analogy that don't "work."
In this case, what resource is Threads (the cruise ship) actually using from the small town (the rest of the Fediverse?) that causes the inhabitants of that small town any actual trouble? The fact that people on Threads can read posts from people on the Fediverse doesn't actually affect people on the rest of the Fediverse in any way. If you're concerned about the converse - the Fediverse being overrun with content from Threads - that's not actually something that they're implementing.
This comment feels like it's been on the Fediverse too long. To continue the analogy, your small town suddenly starts hosting a lot of voices on soap boxes. The more visited the town becomes, the more town criers it gets. Those criers bring their audiences, so not only do you have long queues for the two public bathrooms but you get fights in the town square; struggles over ideologies and all the underhanded trolling that entails. Corpos move in, governments move in, all eager to bend the ear of anyone unfortunate enough to get in grabbing range.
I liked Digg. I loved Reddit. At some point you just need to make a stand. Money and profitability aren't part of the equation, fuck'em. I'll keep my small town tyvm.
that’s not actually something that they’re implementing.
That's not true, their CEO said that you'll be able to converse and comment without leaving the app in the near future. Also, most instance owners are small, they could be overwhelmed pretty easily.
I'm 100% sure that this small town isn't ready for a cruise ship. That's not to say, that in a year or two, we couldn't be prepared for it. Right now, the relatively small influx from Reddit brutalized the existing community. This is the wild, wild, west for Meta because they're not getting enough new users for their shareholders in their existing platforms, I'm sure they're salivating.
A Threads users' content is only going to be visible outside of Threads if the user explicitly opts in to that. The vast majority of people aren't going to do that, or even be aware they can do that. In this analogy, most of the people aren't going to be aware their cruise ship has docked at a town and aren't going to be interested in getting off of it.
Where are you getting this information and if it's true? Even if it's true, Meta isn't known for sticking with what works for the user, but what works for their shareholders. They will figure out a way to exploit and/or extinguish the fediverse.
In the cruise ship analogy, they will stay on the boat the first few 3 or 4 times so everyone backs down and then they'll open the bridge for all 5k. None of this rocket science.
Because I believe in open protocols and freedom of discourse. I think that widespread adoption of open protocols like ActivityPub are a good thing.
I think that widespread adoption of open protocols like ActivityPub are a good thing.
Why is it a good thing?
Edit: I should clarify this question. You're saying you like open discourse, etc., but if threads EEE's the crap out of the fediverse, then this side is gone and you're killing off open discourse. Also, corporations like meta, are closed discourse.
Meta can not EEE the fediverse. The worst they can do is create their own distinct fediverse. But anyone who doesn't want to participate will still be using the open fediverse. They can't take your instance or force it to update to their standards.
It keeps things open to competition. It prevents situations like we saw with Reddit, where single organizations are able to gatekeep content and force everyone to use their portals to access it.
meta is a closed discourse and privately owned, so is reddit. This is user and volunteer run, why would you expose the user and volunteer ran place to closed and greedy companies to do that here?
The whole point of this thread is that Meta is opening up by implementing AcitivtyPub support, people are responding with hostility towards that, and as part of their justification for that hostility they're accusing Meta of being closed.
This is insane.
Do you work for meta or any of their subsidiaries? If not, you're going to have a bad time.
Truly a dizzying series of logical leaps.
No, I am not an employee of Meta or any of its subsidiaries. Even though I'm not 100% opposed to everything they ever do. Do you think there's no possibility of nuance on a subject like this, anyone who doesn't completely hate Meta and oppose all of their actions must be secretly working for them?
Users. They're talking about whether Threads' user content will be "broadcast" out to external instances.
Yes, which as far as I understand functions via an instance federating with another instance, bringing users along with it regardless of input.
I know theres a future version on the way that will let users block out set instances, but since when do users need to pick and choose what instances their instance shows them?
What do you mean? I follow a lot of hashtags on Mastodon. Won't I be seeing a lot of Threads content if I'm on a server federated with them without explicitly opting into that?
Threads' implementation is planned, at least initially, to flow inward rather than outward. The posts they make won't be seen outside of Threads at all initially, and later they intend to add that as something users will have to opt into in their settings (people rarely change their default settings so this will likely not happen much).
Even if it eventually does happen, many Fediverse server projects are already implementing features to allow users to block instances for themselves without need for defederation. If you find the comments from Threads to be annoying, block them.
Is it really that big? I thought a bunch of folks tried it for a week then stopped--especially when they realized you can’t delete your account without also deleting your linked Instagram account (assuming you have one).
They can't have it both ways, is it 100 million and amazing or is it small and needing content?
The 41% number combines both instances that have actually blocked Threads and those who have pledged to do so at some point, so "have blocked" is a bit misleading
As stated, this is a percentage of instances, not users. Roughly 24% of users are on instances that have limited, blocked, or pledged to block Threads.
How do we as users go about blocking them? Can we yet? Or do we have to wait for v .19?
Pre-0.19 I assume you would need to be on an instance that is blocking them.
So, the answer still varies depending on your goals for blocking.
yes, on Mastodon when a user block an instance, it's more like a mute than a block. Your posts will still be available to them, but you won't see their content.
The only solution if you want to protect your content from being shared on an instance is to block it at the instance level AND that the instance use Authorised Fetch.
Not all instances have this feature on.
Isn’t “protecting content” on a public platform kinda moot?
Indeed, it's downright incoherent on a protocol like ActivityPub. The whole point of a system like this is to let content spread around. This isn't supposed to be a walled garden, with all sorts of terms and conditions and DRM and whatnot. When you make a post and click "send" you're announcing that content to the whole world. Even to parts of the world that you may not like.
It's ironic that many of us came to the Fediverse because Reddit tried exactly this sort of nonsense.
I came to the fediverse in 2017, so nothing to do with reddit or meta or twitter.
The fact is here, we have a choice. So you do you.
On mastodon I have an account on an instance that blocked meta and is using authorised fetch (so the proper way to block a domain) : great, my content won't go there or on any other blocked domains : it's my choice.
I have another account on another instance that didn't blocked meta : great, my content will be shared with threads users and I will be able to browse threads.
Choice, isn't it great?
I said many of us. I know there were people here already when Reddit had its meltdown.
I have no problem with individual instances federating or defederating with whomever they want. The problem is that there's a movement afoot to try to get everyone to defederate with Meta. That's what the "FediPact" is about, and this thread is about the FediPact. So I argue against that. If everyone defederates then there goes that choice you're fond of.
where did you see that the fedipact main purpose was to impose defederation? that would be rich.
"i am an instance admin/mod on the fediverse. by signing this pact, i hereby agree to block any instances owned by meta should they pop up on the fediverse. project92 is a real and serious threat to the health and longevity of fedi and must be fought back against at every possible opportunity"
What goal do you think a pact like that has? Do you not think they want everyone else on board? Don't waffle with some "will no one rid me of this troublesome priest" sophistry. They want Meta locked out.
Yes and that’s their right.
But thankfully they don’t impose anything to anyone. You had me worried for a minute.
Indeed, one of the great benefits of an open protocol like ActivityPub is that it's impossible to force stuff like this. So ironically, they're going to fail to impose their desired outcome for the same reason that they don't need to impose their desired outcome.
protecting your content from being pushed to an instance that you though your blocked.
protecting your content from being shared where you though it won't because of the way things are worded.
And what’s stopping these people and these instances from spreading that content using just the publicly available link? Instead of just clicking “share” they’ll have to open an anonymous browser window and copy paste the link from there, the horror!
define these people. define these instances. etc etc
what's your point? anyone can do a screen shot and share it too.
if you want to have a conversation about the content of my post, please keep it on topic : without authorised fetch and a domain blocked at the instance level, the content is pushed.
if you have technical knowledge to add to this or can correct me about the protocol I'm glad to hear it. if not I'm not interested.
That was exactly my point. Blocking instances because “that way my content can’t be seen there” doesn’t make sense, because it’s trivial to bypass it. Yes, even a screenshot will do the job if nothing else, so why talk about protocols in the first place?
Somebody (maybe you maybe not, can’t check while replying) said that blocking instances was useful so that “my content doesn’t get seen / shared / pushed / etc to people and instances I don’t want”. That doesn’t make sense because of the line above. If you need clarification on who are those people and what are those instances ask them, not me.
I hope I’m somehow conveying my message. If there is a subtlety in the subject that I didn’t catch feel free to help me understand.
Thank you!
We haven't blocked Threads yet, but I haven't seen any content from it either. When exactly are Threads supposed to federate?
Several months to a year. ActivityPub support is just in private testing.
When someone subscribes to them.
good.
MOAR
Rookie numbers, we gotta bump those up.
Meta is a cancer on the Internet.
Don’t stop now
They call em Mr Fahrenheit!
I wonder how that breaks down in terms of numbers of users. The largest instances seem to have federated, and they’re the ones that cost the most to run, and Meta has vast amounts of disposable income. I worry Meta will fund some of them in exchange for influence.
Meta doesn't need to bother with back-channel influence peddling of existing instances. If Meta simply opened its own Lemmy instance it would immediately be the largest Lemmy instance by orders of magnitude.
For all I know Meta or X or Reddit already control or outright own one or more instances. I don’t hang out wherever the fediverse admins hang out, so I don’t have any tea to spill.
Good to see so many instances work together to keep the evil out of the fediverse
I've used this analogy before, but threads is like a huge, 5k passenger cruise ship docking in a small town in Alaska. You don't have to know ahead of time that the 2 public bathrooms, one at the general store and the other at McDonalds, aren't going to be enough. You can also forecast the complaining about how everything isn't really tourist ready. It will suck for everyone. The small museum will be overrun and damaged, the people will be treated like dirt. It's an easy forecast.
Here's the important bit, just because they've never been in the cruise line business, doesn't mean you have to give them a chance to ruin your town.
edit: made sentence make sense.
The problem with analogies is that they are not literally the thing that you're analogizing, so there's going to always be parts of the analogy that don't "work."
In this case, what resource is Threads (the cruise ship) actually using from the small town (the rest of the Fediverse?) that causes the inhabitants of that small town any actual trouble? The fact that people on Threads can read posts from people on the Fediverse doesn't actually affect people on the rest of the Fediverse in any way. If you're concerned about the converse - the Fediverse being overrun with content from Threads - that's not actually something that they're implementing.
This comment feels like it's been on the Fediverse too long. To continue the analogy, your small town suddenly starts hosting a lot of voices on soap boxes. The more visited the town becomes, the more town criers it gets. Those criers bring their audiences, so not only do you have long queues for the two public bathrooms but you get fights in the town square; struggles over ideologies and all the underhanded trolling that entails. Corpos move in, governments move in, all eager to bend the ear of anyone unfortunate enough to get in grabbing range.
I liked Digg. I loved Reddit. At some point you just need to make a stand. Money and profitability aren't part of the equation, fuck'em. I'll keep my small town tyvm.
That's not true, their CEO said that you'll be able to converse and comment without leaving the app in the near future. Also, most instance owners are small, they could be overwhelmed pretty easily.
I'm 100% sure that this small town isn't ready for a cruise ship. That's not to say, that in a year or two, we couldn't be prepared for it. Right now, the relatively small influx from Reddit brutalized the existing community. This is the wild, wild, west for Meta because they're not getting enough new users for their shareholders in their existing platforms, I'm sure they're salivating.
A Threads users' content is only going to be visible outside of Threads if the user explicitly opts in to that. The vast majority of people aren't going to do that, or even be aware they can do that. In this analogy, most of the people aren't going to be aware their cruise ship has docked at a town and aren't going to be interested in getting off of it.
Where are you getting this information and if it's true? Even if it's true, Meta isn't known for sticking with what works for the user, but what works for their shareholders. They will figure out a way to exploit and/or extinguish the fediverse.
In the cruise ship analogy, they will stay on the boat the first few 3 or 4 times so everyone backs down and then they'll open the bridge for all 5k. None of this rocket science.
Why do you want them here so bad?
Here's where I got that information.
Because I believe in open protocols and freedom of discourse. I think that widespread adoption of open protocols like ActivityPub are a good thing.
Why is it a good thing?
Edit: I should clarify this question. You're saying you like open discourse, etc., but if threads EEE's the crap out of the fediverse, then this side is gone and you're killing off open discourse. Also, corporations like meta, are closed discourse.
Meta can not EEE the fediverse. The worst they can do is create their own distinct fediverse. But anyone who doesn't want to participate will still be using the open fediverse. They can't take your instance or force it to update to their standards.
It keeps things open to competition. It prevents situations like we saw with Reddit, where single organizations are able to gatekeep content and force everyone to use their portals to access it.
meta is a closed discourse and privately owned, so is reddit. This is user and volunteer run, why would you expose the user and volunteer ran place to closed and greedy companies to do that here?
The whole point of this thread is that Meta is opening up by implementing AcitivtyPub support, people are responding with hostility towards that, and as part of their justification for that hostility they're accusing Meta of being closed.
This is insane.
Do you work for meta or any of their subsidiaries? If not, you're going to have a bad time.
Truly a dizzying series of logical leaps.
No, I am not an employee of Meta or any of its subsidiaries. Even though I'm not 100% opposed to everything they ever do. Do you think there's no possibility of nuance on a subject like this, anyone who doesn't completely hate Meta and oppose all of their actions must be secretly working for them?
User opts in? Or instance opts in?
Users. They're talking about whether Threads' user content will be "broadcast" out to external instances.
Yes, which as far as I understand functions via an instance federating with another instance, bringing users along with it regardless of input.
I know theres a future version on the way that will let users block out set instances, but since when do users need to pick and choose what instances their instance shows them?
What do you mean? I follow a lot of hashtags on Mastodon. Won't I be seeing a lot of Threads content if I'm on a server federated with them without explicitly opting into that?
Threads' implementation is planned, at least initially, to flow inward rather than outward. The posts they make won't be seen outside of Threads at all initially, and later they intend to add that as something users will have to opt into in their settings (people rarely change their default settings so this will likely not happen much).
Even if it eventually does happen, many Fediverse server projects are already implementing features to allow users to block instances for themselves without need for defederation. If you find the comments from Threads to be annoying, block them.
Is it really that big? I thought a bunch of folks tried it for a week then stopped--especially when they realized you can’t delete your account without also deleting your linked Instagram account (assuming you have one).
They can't have it both ways, is it 100 million and amazing or is it small and needing content?
For clarity:
How do we as users go about blocking them? Can we yet? Or do we have to wait for v .19?
Pre-0.19 I assume you would need to be on an instance that is blocking them.
Post-0.19 you can block them as an instance, meaning "any posts from communities which are hosted on that instance are hidden"
So, the answer still varies depending on your goals for blocking.
yes, on Mastodon when a user block an instance, it's more like a mute than a block. Your posts will still be available to them, but you won't see their content.
The only solution if you want to protect your content from being shared on an instance is to block it at the instance level AND that the instance use Authorised Fetch.
Not all instances have this feature on.
Isn’t “protecting content” on a public platform kinda moot?
Indeed, it's downright incoherent on a protocol like ActivityPub. The whole point of a system like this is to let content spread around. This isn't supposed to be a walled garden, with all sorts of terms and conditions and DRM and whatnot. When you make a post and click "send" you're announcing that content to the whole world. Even to parts of the world that you may not like.
It's ironic that many of us came to the Fediverse because Reddit tried exactly this sort of nonsense.
I came to the fediverse in 2017, so nothing to do with reddit or meta or twitter.
The fact is here, we have a choice. So you do you.
On mastodon I have an account on an instance that blocked meta and is using authorised fetch (so the proper way to block a domain) : great, my content won't go there or on any other blocked domains : it's my choice.
I have another account on another instance that didn't blocked meta : great, my content will be shared with threads users and I will be able to browse threads.
Choice, isn't it great?
I said many of us. I know there were people here already when Reddit had its meltdown.
I have no problem with individual instances federating or defederating with whomever they want. The problem is that there's a movement afoot to try to get everyone to defederate with Meta. That's what the "FediPact" is about, and this thread is about the FediPact. So I argue against that. If everyone defederates then there goes that choice you're fond of.
where did you see that the fedipact main purpose was to impose defederation? that would be rich.
https://fedipact.online/ reads:
What goal do you think a pact like that has? Do you not think they want everyone else on board? Don't waffle with some "will no one rid me of this troublesome priest" sophistry. They want Meta locked out.
Yes and that’s their right.
But thankfully they don’t impose anything to anyone. You had me worried for a minute.
Indeed, one of the great benefits of an open protocol like ActivityPub is that it's impossible to force stuff like this. So ironically, they're going to fail to impose their desired outcome for the same reason that they don't need to impose their desired outcome.
protecting your content from being pushed to an instance that you though your blocked.
protecting your content from being shared where you though it won't because of the way things are worded.
And what’s stopping these people and these instances from spreading that content using just the publicly available link? Instead of just clicking “share” they’ll have to open an anonymous browser window and copy paste the link from there, the horror!
define these people. define these instances. etc etc
what's your point? anyone can do a screen shot and share it too.
if you want to have a conversation about the content of my post, please keep it on topic : without authorised fetch and a domain blocked at the instance level, the content is pushed.
if you have technical knowledge to add to this or can correct me about the protocol I'm glad to hear it. if not I'm not interested.
That was exactly my point. Blocking instances because “that way my content can’t be seen there” doesn’t make sense, because it’s trivial to bypass it. Yes, even a screenshot will do the job if nothing else, so why talk about protocols in the first place?
Somebody (maybe you maybe not, can’t check while replying) said that blocking instances was useful so that “my content doesn’t get seen / shared / pushed / etc to people and instances I don’t want”. That doesn’t make sense because of the line above. If you need clarification on who are those people and what are those instances ask them, not me.
I hope I’m somehow conveying my message. If there is a subtlety in the subject that I didn’t catch feel free to help me understand.
Thank you!
We haven't blocked Threads yet, but I haven't seen any content from it either. When exactly are Threads supposed to federate?
Several months to a year. ActivityPub support is just in private testing.
When someone subscribes to them.
good.
MOAR
Rookie numbers, we gotta bump those up.
Meta is a cancer on the Internet.
Don’t stop now
They call em Mr Fahrenheit!
I wonder how that breaks down in terms of numbers of users. The largest instances seem to have federated, and they’re the ones that cost the most to run, and Meta has vast amounts of disposable income. I worry Meta will fund some of them in exchange for influence.
Meta doesn't need to bother with back-channel influence peddling of existing instances. If Meta simply opened its own Lemmy instance it would immediately be the largest Lemmy instance by orders of magnitude.
For all I know Meta or X or Reddit already control or outright own one or more instances. I don’t hang out wherever the fediverse admins hang out, so I don’t have any tea to spill.
Good to see so many instances work together to keep the evil out of the fediverse