Hey guys, this time I really messed up :/

ernest@kbin.social to /kbin meta@kbin.social – 106 points –

I think you should see something.

Like I mentioned many time before, this isn't my first attempt at creating an aggregator. Years ago, I built something similar, and back then I drew a lot of inspiration from Postmill. This time, to avoid starting from scratch, I get some elements from my old snippets. Originally, kbin was meant to be a project just for me and a few friends, so I didn't attribute the origin authors. That's not an excuse, though — I should have done it right away when the project became public on git. I have a point in my roadmap called "Preparing a repository for contributors," where I allocated a significant amount of time to educate myself about licenses, attributions, and so on. Unfortunately, everything unfolded in the wrong order.

https://codeberg.org/Kbin/kbin-core/issues/196

I think Emma is right. Since I share my small successes with you, I also want to be transparent about my failures and mistakes. I will push the proper attributions to the repository today along with some critical fixes.

To avoid reinventing the wheel, I took some code used in federation from Pixelfed as well. Essentially, there are two projects two projects will be marked. However, I have never concealed this fact:

https://kbin.social/m/random/p/254858/The-real-reason-why-I-haven-t-published-the-pixelfed-app#post-comment-438684

I mean that I'm not a guy who wants to steal your code. It's obvious that someone will take a look at the code of a project that is very similar to theirs. Sometimes, I just become terribly messy when I have to do many things at once. This lesson will definitely teach me to prioritize tasks better.

In the end, I can only promise that once everything settles down and I manage to extract a library for ActivityPub, I will revisit the Postmill repository, this time with a pull request proposal.

You should definitely check it out.

https://postmill.xyz/ - Project page
https://raddle.me/ - Postmill instance
https://pixelfed.org/ - Of course, everyone here is familiar with this one ;)

PS. the website should be running a bit faster. I will talk about it next time.

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This is the kind of transparent communication that buys so much goodwill and trust from the community. I've been enjoying my first experience in the Fediverse with Kbin, and the response here only makes me love it that much more. Nicely handled.

I think we did a good choice

Agreed. I had already created an account on a Lemmy instance (Lemmy.one since I wanted to avoid the two main .ml instances). I had just about settled but decided to give Kbin a try. While it doesn't seem quite as far along in it's development, it struck me as a better user experience. Combined with reservations I have about the Lemmy developers... Well, here we are. And seeing this level of involvement and dedication to doing the right thing from the developer confirms that choice. Kudos @ernest

I've been using both sides to figure things out, and I always end up using kbin more.

As I am totally new to this whole thing, could you elaborate for me on those reservations about the lemmy developers? And are those the same that created lemmy.world?

@ernest Hey man, if it's of any help, I have a PHP (laravel) project which mostly federates fine, license is AGPLv3 as well, so feel free to reuse what you see fit.

Edit: may be more useful with the link 🤦‍♂️

https://gitlab.com/j3j5/fedibots/

It makes a strong impression at first glance.

Seems just like another day with open source software.
You gotta be careful about licensing and attribution and it can get really messy, but no big deal really.
Seems like you're correcting this and acting in good faith.

It shouldn't happen, but it happens. Thanks for the transparency

Agreed, that's the key - act in good faith.

If you make a mistake, try to fix it in good faith. Seems like that's what is happening. 👍

Emma's point is valid, but it was a pretty ham-fisted and overly-agressive way to approach it. May need to touch some grass. Could have just been a "hey, noticed this. Could you look into this?" And then if your response wasn't great then get mad. Seems like the assumption from they get-go was that you're just an asshole that didn't care and did it intentionally.

It's alright. I do think the actual issue was worded perhaps a bit harshly and combative, and I think you responded correctly. Very much appreciate the accountability here. To be honest if anything, this probably gives me more faith in you in the long run. There are many ways you could have dealt with it, but as far as I can see you've dealt with the issue as honorably as you could have.
Proper attribution can be tricky. We all learn. We all make mistakes. A lot of us will never release a project that makes it as far as yours has so even our issues don't become even nearly as visible.
Keep your head up and stay calm. You're doing great. We got you.

There are many ways you could have dealt with it, but as far as I can see you've dealt with the issue as honorably as you could have

It's certainly a far cry away from "We will remain profit driven until profits arrive" that a certain someone said in response to a legitimate question over on the other site. A breath of fresh air really.

Lol, exactly what I was thinking. I can't imagine a Reddit admin posting something like this.

Cross-posting my comment:

This is one of my largest frustrations with the open source community. Everything is immediately assumed as malicious. There is no escalation, it's "you screwed me over" from the jump.

I suppose it's bred from decades of large corporations pilfering open source for profit. However, this post could easily have been, "I noticed there's some code I wrote that wasn't attributed, would you mind adding that?". Escalate from there if the appropriate actions aren't taken.

For real, the person's name is LitigousEmma. This is one step away from a copyright troll, which imo seems to the the mortal enemy of the idea of FOSS. Did this Emma recognize all the developers of the programming languages they used, or the people who made the computer they worked on, or the pioneers of electronics in general? It's not like Emma took quarks and atoms and turned it into an web aggregator.

In LitigousEmma's defense, kbin did not comply with the license terms of the open source software, so there is a valid concern here. Unlike most programming languages which are often released under licenses which do not requite attribution.

However, mistakes happen. The open source community is better off if we could all just start from 0 and escalate based on response.

Honestly that's my only issue with this. Ernest was totally rightfully called out for this, as he should have been. But Emma's knee jerk reaction is just a real bad look. Don't make any attempt to reach out and figure out why it's in there. Immediately make a public post accusing him of stealing code, trying to hide that he stole it, and claim it as his own...on a FOSS project no less...

Surely there's a step or 2 before that point..

I don't have any issue with opening an issue in the repo, that part seems reasonable. It, by definition, is an issue with the codebase.

Right, I wasn't saying it shouldn't have been a public post. Just that the public post shouldn't have immediately jumped to accusations. FOSS or not, accusing someone of stealing code and intentionally trying to obfuscate its origin to pass it off as their own is a big deal for a developer. One that can destroy your reputation

A simple "I've noticed snippets in here of my work that falls under a license which is not attributed at all. Could you add the proper attributions or remove it from your project?" says the same thing and doesn't jump to any accusations that you have no idea if are true or not

Not knowing either parties at all, I'd say the best solution is to assume both meant the best and some mistakes were made. One for forgetting to give credit for code, the other for wording in their asking to fix the mistake. At the end of the day, credit is given and the code grows, both benefit. Don't dwell on the small stuff that got there, problem is solved.

Agreed! Totally think this is a learning experience for both sides

An...earnest mistake?

I'm sorry

Some good points but a counter point to consider.

Whether it’s a photo used without permission by a big company or people using your work without attribution there does tend to be a dismissive attitude overall (not that that is the case here)

I can see how somebody could come into this situation with that as the background and just cut right to the chase.

There wasn’t a “cease and desist” (the legal equivalent of an ahem) nor a DMCA copyright takedown (harsher but less financial damaging than a copyright suit with damages)

Their tone was scolding but it was a “hey… heads up… you gotta fix this” without resorting to any of the above.

Ernest took it with the right attitude and Emma accepted it and that’s that.

Couldn’t really ask for a better outcome and Emma has every right to come out swinging harder than she did.

I can’t speak to her experience with this but personally it is sometimes better to be firm (but fair) at the outset so people don’t ignore a softer tone requiring you to escalate it.

That’s just bad for everybody all around.

Copyright is the enemy of freedom and knowledge. What if Einstein copyrighted E=MC^2? Emma didn't create the software, they just figured out how to make it.

And instead of making it closed they made it available under open source licensing. With the only terms being attribution.

They’re not the bad guy here. Nor is Ernest. There’s no bad guys here just a mistake, a call to fix it, a fix and an acceptance of that fix.

Really Ernest showed the perfect example of “if you have to eat crow eat it while it’s young and tender”

What an interesting phrase. I've never heard that one before. Perfectly sums up less elegant forms of phrasing it.

We have a similar one in Nigeria. If you are going to eat a frog, eat a fat one that has eggs

I agree. Firstly, a public post...and secondly...a public post bashing a fellow developer with passive aggressive quotes.

Now I may be assuming but it didn't seem like LitigiousEmma mad an attempt to privately contact Ernest and... and assumed the worst in the post.

I'm just a reddit normie so I don't know what happens behind the scenes but so far Ernest has been earnest and honest... as long as that is the case I'll stand with you bud!

You made a mistake and are taking responsibility for it. I respect that!

P.S. - Notice how LitigiousEmma's post is recent. LE just wants their name out there. If Kbin flopped then no fs would be given.

We appreciate the transparency and hope everything can be solved without much friction. Keep it up!

Lol, she picked a hell of a username on codeberg. Very fitting.

"Hey Ernest, I see you have used my code from (project) without proper attribution as required by the license. Can you please correct the attribution or remove the infringing code?"

How hard would that have been? If she didn't get the response she wanted she could then escalate.

Mistakes happen, what matters is how you recover from them. Keep doing what you’re doing!

You, sir, are an honorable person. I think I can speak for all open-source hobby programmers when I say: you make us proud.

Seems that so long as the attribution is in place the Postmill people aren't going to push it further. I (and I hope the community) appreciate your transparency and honesty. That's the sort of thing that makes me want to stick around here and support this project.

And for fun, I will check out those other sites, since I hadn't heard about Postmill/Raddle before.

Seems to me you're handling it the best way possible - yes, re-using open source code without proper attribution is an unfortunate mistake, but you've also clearly explained the reasons it happened. I also understand why the original code author reacted very strongly; when code is stolen maliciously and with intent, it's a huge "fuck you" to the original authors, who have freely released their code on the basis that they receive attribution of their use.

Good to see you've subsequently made up, and the code can stay. Thanks for being transparent, @ernest!

I feel a lot more comfortable with the developer of kbin (@ernest) than the Lemmy devs.

Here, he messed up by not giving attribution for some code, but the transparency and remedy of the error are appreciated.

It’s nice to see something that builds trust as opposed to burning it down like at #Reddit

#fediverse #kbin

I like you even more now for admitting your mistake without any hesitation and taking the steps to rectify your error. Keep up the good work!

Every single thread or comment I see from you further cements the image of a good dude.

Mistakes happen, how we handle it defines us, and you've handled this the best way possible.

Licenses are hard. The fact that you are being transparent means this was not malice. Keep improving, and it all will work out in the end.

Damn emma really tore into you in that issue lol. A lot of assumptions about malicious intentions when a simple mistake seems much more likely. I mean I know they're in the right defending their work but damn idk if they needed to make such a big public stink about it lol

@RaleighEnt @ernest Yeah, this part - "I have never given you permission to take my work uncredited and slap your licence on it--I wonder what your sponsors would have to say about that." - Seems unnecessarily harsh. It's not wrong, it's just a bit overboard. "Never attribute to malice that which can be attributed to ignorance." or however that quote goes. It's a simple oversight.

Contacting the project "officially" through the the public tracker was the right thing to do.
As for the tone of the message - I don't think it was out of line considering the circumstances.

Mistakes do happen (licensing is actually hard) - and I'm happy to see it got fixed fast.

Yeah I suppose you're right. Just the little digs at earnest's character seem needlessly hostile to me. like saying he edited the code to hide its origins or saying "what would your sponsors think?"

idk. just don't like it. I do feel for them, I'm sure having your work copied without credit sucks. just wish we could all be friends and hold hands and shit:(

Mistakes do happen (licensing is actually hard)

Which is why the tone is striking people here as over the top. Ernest is clearly not a large business trying to profit off their work so some benefit of the doubt was warranted.

Ernest corrected it and the story is over so none of this matters, but open source devs going at other devs who make a mistake with attribution just makes the ecosystem a less nice place to be. Save that hostility for the ones trying to take advantage of others

I honestly don't see this as a big deal, but I'm glad that you're being honest and open. Attribution is cool and all, but Emma makes it sound like you committed some sort of cardinal sin. I can never understand why someone who uses a permissive license gets so upset when their work is not attributed, you gain almost nothing from it.

Again though, attribution is still a net good. I think it's the polite thing to do, and I'm glad you're doing it.

When you ask for very little (credit for your hard work), it's even more infuriating when you're deprived of it. You could compare it to stealing ideas in academia - the omission of one tiny reference makes a huge difference.

That said, there is such a thing as a honest mistake, and Ernest is handling it in the best way possible. But there are enough instances of permissive licences being abused that I don't blame the original author for initially taking it badly.

I agree these things are a big deal for the original author, but you also have to consider what the other party is doing with your work. The tone of that issue is pretty hostile when a simple issue saying could you grant me proper attribution would have worked just as well. Ernest isn't a large company trying to profit of their work, he's just one dude. He was building a small project for just himself and released without clearing up his attributions. Its a small mistake that's easily rectified and didn't need to be so hostile.