Giving these girls a chance to enjoy school life without being subjected to indoctrination every minute of their lives by their parents is a good thing.
If even some of them see past the bullshit of religion and can function as normal people it will be of benefit.
This will probably lead to them being pulled out of state school and attending a Muslim school where they will truly get 100% indoctrination every second.
Yes, because turning them away is such a good way to give them a chance to enjoy school life.
You know what would have been good too? Let them in the school instead of putting them in the light like this and refusing entry for some of them.
But, I suppose we have a different view of "enjoy a school life"; my vision happens in the school, yours happens in the school without some people.
No one in France is allowed to wear religious iconography/clothing in public schools so why do you believe there should be an exemption for abayas?
Small prayers before meals is effectively religious iconography. So is muslums call to prayer. But are they prosthilitizing?
iconography
ī″kə-nŏg′rə-fē
noun
Pictorial illustration of a subject.
The collected representations illustrating a subject.
A set of specified or traditional symbolic forms associated with the subject or theme of a stylized work of art.
An action is not iconography, though public prayer is absolutely proselytizing but how you think that relates to clothing standards is not clear.
Because it is not particularly religious clothing? It is not exclusively used by religious people, it just happens to be mainly used by one group of people.
Also, please, "no one in France is allowed to wear religious iconography". Tell me you didn't go to school in France without telling me you didn't go to school in France. Some religion are overlooked quite often.
I'm all for banning religious iconography from schools; but if that was the real goal (hint: it was not), do it fully, and only do it for actual religious stuff. This is about banning a sleeved dress that have little to no connection with religion except that "some people off said religion sometimes wears it". I'm sure they sometimes wear snickers too, should we also ban them?
I think the point is that this particularly religious clothing is used to shame women of their bodies.
You know other religions used to have women cover their bodies too, but that has been left behind a lot of years ago.
I have a question for you, why dont men also cover their bodies? why is it that only women have to cover their bodies?
"That is our culture!" It is a culture based on religion, based on regressive and mysoginistic ideals.
The problem is, theres no definitive distinguishihg description of an abaya. It's a loose dress. How do you distinguish someone who wants to be comfortable in a loose dress from a girl being oppressed by an abaya?
Is it really that hard for you to answer that?
Maybe this will help: What is more important, allowing girls to feel comfortable in a loose dress or helping girls that are being opressed by an abaya?
There are better ways to prevent oppression than controlling what people wear (which is ironically exactly what their oppressors are doing). These girls and women should feel comfortable and free to wear whatever they want, without being forced by religion or the french government. The answer to oppression and authoritarianism isn't more oppression and authoritarianism.
Yeah, the answr to opression and authoritianism is peace and love, go tell that to the ukranians, maybe if they surrender, Russia will threat them with love.
The solution of opression and authoritarianism is intolerance to them. The french government is not forcing people to wear something, they are enforcing the opressors to not force people to wear something.
Woooow. The mental gymnastics. Are you actually comparing the french government telling little girls what not to wear to the Ukrainian army forcing out a militant government trying to overtake them?
This so is incomparable I don't even know where to start. First, the Ukrainians are choosing for themselves how and why to deal with their oppressors. I have never suggest you have to be nice and hold hands to fight authoritarianism. I only said that more authoritarianism is not the answer to authoritarianism.
What the french are tying to do is pander to the far right and distract form other issues within their government with culture war BS while willful idiots like you act like the government is playing white savior helping these poor girls from their oppressive clothes. This is actually peaceful AND AUTHORITARIAN at the same time. You do not need to be violent to be anti authoritarian or violent to be authoritarian. Your weird appeal to force to deal with everything... weird and makes no sense.
You don't liberate people by being authoritarian. Yes, be intolerant of authoritarianism. Use violence when necessary even. But again, MORE AUTHORITARIANISM DOES NOT COMBAT AUTHORITARIANISM. Forcing people to combat authoritarianism under your control and terms does not work. If it did, the US would control a lot more of South America and the middle east. Instead, they just killed a lot of innocent civilians.
This is not some paradox of tolerance I am appealing to. Be intolerant of authoritarianism. Offer these girls mental health resources and a way to escape their families and religion. Offer them a way out of their oppressive situation. Offer them the power to overcome their oppressors on their own terms. Have consequences FOR THE OPPRESSORS if you want to be forceful. Because banning a "square shape" loose dress does nothing to the actual oppressors. What, you think they'll send their daughters to school in jeans now? No, lol. They will send their daughters to school in a slightly different style of loose dress now. Nothing has happened to the oppressors forcing girls into the abaya.
But, forcing these little girls into "what is good for them" is not helpful. THEY should have the power to decide what is good for them. Everyone deserves that. They should decide what they want to wear. Not their parents. Not the french government.
I only said that more authoritarianism is not the answer to authoritarianism.
Come on, be real. Muslims and Islam force people into wearing x and y clothing. Dont come here and say they are not authoritarian. Yes, authoritarianism is the answer to authoritarianism. You are not going to win to authoritarianism with kind words.
Not their parents
Exactly. And they are the ones making a big deal out of this.
If a little girl wanted to dress as a unicorn to school, the parents would easily say: "no, you cannot dress to school, it is banned", or do you think the parens would be like "WHY CANT MY LITTLE GIRL DRESS AS UNICORN TO SCHOOL. FRANCE IS FASCIST!".
All these "but my daughter wants to cover her whole body, its her choice!!", its coming from their parents.
All these “but my daughter wants to cover her whole body, its her choice!!”, its coming from their parents.
I think this is a very western take on feminism. There are many Arab atheistic women who write on the liberty of wearing clothes that cover their bodies without it having anything to do with shame or religion. Look into Leila Ahmed for example, a professor in Women's Studies and Religion at the Harvard Divinity School. She is very against women's oppression in Islamic tradition and majority countries. She's based an entire career on it. She once opposed veils on women as an oppressive symbol, but has further dissected it's role in western society where women are not oppressed by their religion and how it even represents freedom in a way. Because that's how some western Muslim women feel when they wear it. Its their choice to decide what these clothes represent to them.
Some girls are forced and I won't deny it. And I don't think we should be tolerant of it. I really think there should be a system of support for Muslim girls in western societies so they can deal with and navigate these issues on their own terms and with their own autonomy. I wish we saw more of that.
But, acting like a girl living in France choosing to wear an abaya in a healthy Arab family setting (Or any loose dress popular in any culture) is any different from a girl choosing jeans in a healthy western family setting is disingenuous. We are all shaped by our upbringing, but that doesn't inherently make it some kind of brainwashing or force or abuse.
Also, like... kids wear funky things to school. I don't know enough about unicorn costumes in France specifically to say anything. But, depending on the costume I assume it would be left alone or stopped if it impeded normal school activity. This seems like a strange example.
An edit for your edit:
Yes, authoritarianism is the answer to authoritarianism. You are not going to win to authoritarianism with kind words.
Part of me barely wants to entertain this. I already explained how anti authoritarianism could be violent and how I wasn't appealing to kind words or tolerance of intolerance. I offered tangible non authoritarian and even aggressive alternatives. Its scary that, even with this explanation, you think the answer to people behaving the way you don't like is to control those that they abuse.
This seems like a strange example.
It was clearly a strange example to give a point, to which you didnt make any comment.
some girls are forced and I won’t deny it
So in your opinion, how are we going to help these girls that being forced into it? or is your opinion that they dont mind and we should only focus on the girls that want to dress conservative because they want? You mention a system of support for muslim girls.... why are muslims not fighting for that? Its strange that they are only enraged, when the government decides to ban the abaya dress, but I wonder if they are also enraged by the fact that some girls are being forced into it.
acting like a girl living in France choosing to wear an abaya in a healthy Arab family setting (Or any loose dress popular in any culture) is any different from a girl choosing jeans in a healthy western family setting is disingenuous.
The difference here is that there is not a group/religion forcing girls/women to wear jeans. Sure, little girls see their moms wearing jeans and they also want to wear jeans, but there is not a religion telling women to wear jeans. With abaya dresses/other coverings, there is a religion telling women to wear them, so saying that little girls wear them because their moms wear them has a different connotation.
Thats the whole point here! Like it or not, this religion is brain washing women to cover their bodies because ELSE!, and they are taught that since childhood.
Hmm no? Please tell me how to distinguish a "regular" dress from a "religious" dress, when they have roughly the same coverage and no specific patterns. That would be helpful to enforce this new restriction without relying on the wearer's religious belief.
Here's a fucking clue: is a man FORCING them to wear it?
Well, a bunch of men are certainly forcing them not to wear it now. I find it interesting that your answer to men controlling women is to have different men control the same women.
Edit: Honestly, fuck people who use religion as an oppressive tool. But, I find it really frustrating that people are acting like they're liberating women and girls by controlling what they wear. That's not liberation. These kids should be given access to confidential in school therapy and resources to report and deal with abusive parents if we're actually worried about them being oppressed. But that's not really what this is about.
Additionally, banning the abaya doesn't prevent oppression. If these girls are being forced to dress modestly and being made ashamed of their bodies, they will just be forced to dress modestly in a vaguely different way now. Acting like this will bring meaningful change to these girls lives is just theater.
You couldn't be a bigger idiot.
Do you actually have anything to argue what I said though? Like... really. Your best answer to oppression is more oppression? And that makes me an idiot?
What about those who chose it of their own will because they deem it modest and don't want to be sexualized?
Children don't really choose many things, especially the way they dress
No sure, which is why they need a law restricting them even more.
You're deadass arguing that teenage girls don't choose how they dress????????
Oh, like yeah most teenage girls can wear whatever they want, no parents will never ever say "where are you going dressed like that?"
Like literally whatever the standard of the parents is, they will enforce it on their teenagers in most cases, sure they can pick any clothes they want, as long as it fits the standard.
Of course they do!
Copy/pasting my answer to the other comment
Oh, like yeah most teenage girls can wear whatever they want, no parents will never ever say "where are you going dressed like that?"
Like literally whatever the standard of the parents is, they will enforce it on their teenagers in most cases, sure they can pick any clothes they want, as long as it fits the standard.
If they want to dress like this they are free to do so in Arabia. But not in France. Nobody forcing those people to live here, they chose.
They are... French...
Then go and ask those people. They will call themselves Muslim/Arab, even if they are born in France and have french paper.
You can be Muslim (a religion), Arab (an ethnicity), and French (a nationality) all at once...
If you're French living in France then you MUST obey the laws of France. And the law is simple - FUCK RELIGION!
Such a brave statement.
Have you? Or you are just assuming based on the stereotypes you were fed?
Giving these girls a chance to enjoy school life without being subjected to indoctrination every minute of their lives by their parents is a good thing.
If even some of them see past the bullshit of religion and can function as normal people it will be of benefit.
This will probably lead to them being pulled out of state school and attending a Muslim school where they will truly get 100% indoctrination every second.
Yes, because turning them away is such a good way to give them a chance to enjoy school life. You know what would have been good too? Let them in the school instead of putting them in the light like this and refusing entry for some of them.
But, I suppose we have a different view of "enjoy a school life"; my vision happens in the school, yours happens in the school without some people.
No one in France is allowed to wear religious iconography/clothing in public schools so why do you believe there should be an exemption for abayas?
Small prayers before meals is effectively religious iconography. So is muslums call to prayer. But are they prosthilitizing?
An action is not iconography, though public prayer is absolutely proselytizing but how you think that relates to clothing standards is not clear.
Because it is not particularly religious clothing? It is not exclusively used by religious people, it just happens to be mainly used by one group of people. Also, please, "no one in France is allowed to wear religious iconography". Tell me you didn't go to school in France without telling me you didn't go to school in France. Some religion are overlooked quite often.
I'm all for banning religious iconography from schools; but if that was the real goal (hint: it was not), do it fully, and only do it for actual religious stuff. This is about banning a sleeved dress that have little to no connection with religion except that "some people off said religion sometimes wears it". I'm sure they sometimes wear snickers too, should we also ban them?
I think the point is that this particularly religious clothing is used to shame women of their bodies.
You know other religions used to have women cover their bodies too, but that has been left behind a lot of years ago.
I have a question for you, why dont men also cover their bodies? why is it that only women have to cover their bodies?
"That is our culture!" It is a culture based on religion, based on regressive and mysoginistic ideals.
The problem is, theres no definitive distinguishihg description of an abaya. It's a loose dress. How do you distinguish someone who wants to be comfortable in a loose dress from a girl being oppressed by an abaya?
Is it really that hard for you to answer that?
Maybe this will help: What is more important, allowing girls to feel comfortable in a loose dress or helping girls that are being opressed by an abaya?
There are better ways to prevent oppression than controlling what people wear (which is ironically exactly what their oppressors are doing). These girls and women should feel comfortable and free to wear whatever they want, without being forced by religion or the french government. The answer to oppression and authoritarianism isn't more oppression and authoritarianism.
Yeah, the answr to opression and authoritianism is peace and love, go tell that to the ukranians, maybe if they surrender, Russia will threat them with love.
The solution of opression and authoritarianism is intolerance to them. The french government is not forcing people to wear something, they are enforcing the opressors to not force people to wear something.
Woooow. The mental gymnastics. Are you actually comparing the french government telling little girls what not to wear to the Ukrainian army forcing out a militant government trying to overtake them?
This so is incomparable I don't even know where to start. First, the Ukrainians are choosing for themselves how and why to deal with their oppressors. I have never suggest you have to be nice and hold hands to fight authoritarianism. I only said that more authoritarianism is not the answer to authoritarianism.
What the french are tying to do is pander to the far right and distract form other issues within their government with culture war BS while willful idiots like you act like the government is playing white savior helping these poor girls from their oppressive clothes. This is actually peaceful AND AUTHORITARIAN at the same time. You do not need to be violent to be anti authoritarian or violent to be authoritarian. Your weird appeal to force to deal with everything... weird and makes no sense.
You don't liberate people by being authoritarian. Yes, be intolerant of authoritarianism. Use violence when necessary even. But again, MORE AUTHORITARIANISM DOES NOT COMBAT AUTHORITARIANISM. Forcing people to combat authoritarianism under your control and terms does not work. If it did, the US would control a lot more of South America and the middle east. Instead, they just killed a lot of innocent civilians.
This is not some paradox of tolerance I am appealing to. Be intolerant of authoritarianism. Offer these girls mental health resources and a way to escape their families and religion. Offer them a way out of their oppressive situation. Offer them the power to overcome their oppressors on their own terms. Have consequences FOR THE OPPRESSORS if you want to be forceful. Because banning a "square shape" loose dress does nothing to the actual oppressors. What, you think they'll send their daughters to school in jeans now? No, lol. They will send their daughters to school in a slightly different style of loose dress now. Nothing has happened to the oppressors forcing girls into the abaya.
But, forcing these little girls into "what is good for them" is not helpful. THEY should have the power to decide what is good for them. Everyone deserves that. They should decide what they want to wear. Not their parents. Not the french government.
Come on, be real. Muslims and Islam force people into wearing x and y clothing. Dont come here and say they are not authoritarian. Yes, authoritarianism is the answer to authoritarianism. You are not going to win to authoritarianism with kind words.
Exactly. And they are the ones making a big deal out of this.
If a little girl wanted to dress as a unicorn to school, the parents would easily say: "no, you cannot dress to school, it is banned", or do you think the parens would be like "WHY CANT MY LITTLE GIRL DRESS AS UNICORN TO SCHOOL. FRANCE IS FASCIST!".
All these "but my daughter wants to cover her whole body, its her choice!!", its coming from their parents.
I think this is a very western take on feminism. There are many Arab atheistic women who write on the liberty of wearing clothes that cover their bodies without it having anything to do with shame or religion. Look into Leila Ahmed for example, a professor in Women's Studies and Religion at the Harvard Divinity School. She is very against women's oppression in Islamic tradition and majority countries. She's based an entire career on it. She once opposed veils on women as an oppressive symbol, but has further dissected it's role in western society where women are not oppressed by their religion and how it even represents freedom in a way. Because that's how some western Muslim women feel when they wear it. Its their choice to decide what these clothes represent to them.
Some girls are forced and I won't deny it. And I don't think we should be tolerant of it. I really think there should be a system of support for Muslim girls in western societies so they can deal with and navigate these issues on their own terms and with their own autonomy. I wish we saw more of that.
But, acting like a girl living in France choosing to wear an abaya in a healthy Arab family setting (Or any loose dress popular in any culture) is any different from a girl choosing jeans in a healthy western family setting is disingenuous. We are all shaped by our upbringing, but that doesn't inherently make it some kind of brainwashing or force or abuse.
Also, like... kids wear funky things to school. I don't know enough about unicorn costumes in France specifically to say anything. But, depending on the costume I assume it would be left alone or stopped if it impeded normal school activity. This seems like a strange example.
An edit for your edit:
Part of me barely wants to entertain this. I already explained how anti authoritarianism could be violent and how I wasn't appealing to kind words or tolerance of intolerance. I offered tangible non authoritarian and even aggressive alternatives. Its scary that, even with this explanation, you think the answer to people behaving the way you don't like is to control those that they abuse.
It was clearly a strange example to give a point, to which you didnt make any comment.
So in your opinion, how are we going to help these girls that being forced into it? or is your opinion that they dont mind and we should only focus on the girls that want to dress conservative because they want? You mention a system of support for muslim girls.... why are muslims not fighting for that? Its strange that they are only enraged, when the government decides to ban the abaya dress, but I wonder if they are also enraged by the fact that some girls are being forced into it.
The difference here is that there is not a group/religion forcing girls/women to wear jeans. Sure, little girls see their moms wearing jeans and they also want to wear jeans, but there is not a religion telling women to wear jeans. With abaya dresses/other coverings, there is a religion telling women to wear them, so saying that little girls wear them because their moms wear them has a different connotation.
Thats the whole point here! Like it or not, this religion is brain washing women to cover their bodies because ELSE!, and they are taught that since childhood.
You're really just arguing to argue.
Hmm no? Please tell me how to distinguish a "regular" dress from a "religious" dress, when they have roughly the same coverage and no specific patterns. That would be helpful to enforce this new restriction without relying on the wearer's religious belief.
Here's a fucking clue: is a man FORCING them to wear it?
Well, a bunch of men are certainly forcing them not to wear it now. I find it interesting that your answer to men controlling women is to have different men control the same women.
Edit: Honestly, fuck people who use religion as an oppressive tool. But, I find it really frustrating that people are acting like they're liberating women and girls by controlling what they wear. That's not liberation. These kids should be given access to confidential in school therapy and resources to report and deal with abusive parents if we're actually worried about them being oppressed. But that's not really what this is about.
Additionally, banning the abaya doesn't prevent oppression. If these girls are being forced to dress modestly and being made ashamed of their bodies, they will just be forced to dress modestly in a vaguely different way now. Acting like this will bring meaningful change to these girls lives is just theater.
You couldn't be a bigger idiot.
Do you actually have anything to argue what I said though? Like... really. Your best answer to oppression is more oppression? And that makes me an idiot?
Yeah that's fucking evil and we should sanction France for it.
lol okay buddy
A little extreme i admit, i would agree with a weaker take
You mean forcing them.
What about those who chose it of their own will because they deem it modest and don't want to be sexualized?
Children don't really choose many things, especially the way they dress
No sure, which is why they need a law restricting them even more.
You're deadass arguing that teenage girls don't choose how they dress????????
Oh, like yeah most teenage girls can wear whatever they want, no parents will never ever say "where are you going dressed like that?"
Like literally whatever the standard of the parents is, they will enforce it on their teenagers in most cases, sure they can pick any clothes they want, as long as it fits the standard.
Of course they do!
Copy/pasting my answer to the other comment
Oh, like yeah most teenage girls can wear whatever they want, no parents will never ever say "where are you going dressed like that?"
Like literally whatever the standard of the parents is, they will enforce it on their teenagers in most cases, sure they can pick any clothes they want, as long as it fits the standard.
If they want to dress like this they are free to do so in Arabia. But not in France. Nobody forcing those people to live here, they chose.
They are... French...
Then go and ask those people. They will call themselves Muslim/Arab, even if they are born in France and have french paper.
You can be Muslim (a religion), Arab (an ethnicity), and French (a nationality) all at once...
If you're French living in France then you MUST obey the laws of France. And the law is simple - FUCK RELIGION!
Such a brave statement.
Have you? Or you are just assuming based on the stereotypes you were fed?
Do the world a favour and stick your head in a blender you fucking dumbass.