This isn't about Elon. While it's about one of his companies, Elon has little to nothing to do with this story.
Yes. It is not about Elon. It's about the doomed nature of BEVs. Any technology that can give you a £17,000 repair bill just because it is wet means it is not a viable technology. Though it's sad that people have been fooled by Elon's bullshit about his companies. Which is why stories like this come up. Ultimately, BEVs are dead-end and this cannot be changed. It will be a matter of when BEVs are abandoned in the marketplace, not if.
EDIT: Again, no amount of lying to yourself will change reality. BEVs are a dead-end and always will be.
So a poorly made electric vehicle by one manufacturer means that the entire field is non-viable?
EDIT: Lmao, check out this guy's posts, every single comment is shitting on battery EVs and shilling hydrogen vehicles. I don't know how much you're being paid to shill for the fossil fuel industry, but I hope it's enough.
Lmao, check out this guy’s posts, every single comment is shitting on battery EVs and shilling hydrogen vehicles. I don’t know how much you’re being paid to shill for the fossil fuel industry, but I hope it’s enough.
How many people are shilling for the BEV industry or Tesla? It is the biggest greenwashing scam of our time. Someone has to say something. You have reality reversed. It's the pro-BEV people that are shills.
All BEVs from everyone will have the same issues.
EDIT: Lying to yourself will not change reality. A BEV will never be a low-resource type of vehicles. It is a matter of when, not if, it falls apart as an idea.
Brilliant analysis
Explain to me how a car with a $20,000 battery can ever avoid a repair job of $20,000 once the battery dies? This is a problem that everyone will face.
And in America, the land of SUVs and pick-up trucks, these costs will be even higher.
EDIT: You won't change economics by lying to yourself. BEVs are simply not viable. At least, not anything with a big battery.
This isn't about the battery dying. It's about Tesla failing miserably at building a water resistant enclosure for their batteries, them pretending that it's somehow the customers fault.
It's both about the shittiness of Tesla, and the eventually doom of all BEVs. If you think companies like Ford or VW won't be building shit BEVs too, then I have a bridge to sell to you.
EDIT: Again, no amount of lying to yourself or others will save the BEV. It is doomed and always will be. If anything, you are just delaying real solutions to climate change.
Be honest. Are you paid off or are you just insane?
Joe Biden just announced a huge pro-hydrogen program? Is he paid off or insane?
It's time to ask yourself honestly: Why do you oppose green technology that happens to not be your favored technology? Perhaps you can reach a realization here.
Yes
Basically every left-leaning politician on Earth would have be too, in your mind.
Explain to me how a car with a $20,000 battery can ever avoid a repair job of $20,000 once the battery dies?
It is quite easy.
A battery like that lasts longer than the car. It may not have done in the past, but it does do so today.
And if it breaks before then, you only need to replace a single cell to fix it.
Afterwards, you can just recycle and reuse those exotic metals used in its construction, so it doesn't require more pollution to create.
Much of that is wishful thinking. All batteries will die, and the repair cost will be insane. Not to mention it all applies to FCEVs and at a much lower cost and lower resource base.
Fundamentally, you can't. The same as how a gas car can't avoid a $5k transmission or engine replacement. Cars being totaled due to their most expensive part failing isn't really a new thing or unexpected. Beaters are sold for scrap literally every day because it's not worth repairing them.
All cars have a limited lifetime. For ICE cars, that's on average around 12 years, and things often start going wrong around ~150k miles. You can get particularly well-maintained cars to last much longer, but most people don't. Classic cars are mostly a hobbyist thing for a reason.
The question isn't "will the battery eventually die", its "will the battery last 15-20 years while still having 60-80% of its initial capacity?"
And based on real-world data, the answer appears to be "yes, unless you have a lemon or really abuse your battery." Lemons are also nothing new.
You can repair ICE cars. Unless you bought some complex luxury car, ICE cars are very cheap to maintain.
FCEVs will have something similar. They will be cheap to build and maintain. They do not have a giant battery to replace.
You? Lmao, nope. Gotta pay big bucks if you want new cars repaired. Pay a couple thousand upfront and then another couple thousand every year for new vehicle information. You can thank John Deere for that shift. I know, your car currently runs. For Americans, there is a certain point in buying a newer one is cheaper than repairing it. There will be a point where everyone is forced to have a shittier car because they are either all like that or you pay the big bucks. What are Americans going to do? Not buy cars, they don't have the freedom to not have one.
It's not one giant battery, but arrays of smaller batteries. At least that has been my experience with them. Battery goes bad and you replace that array. Not 20k but closer to 2k.
Lying to yourself will not change reality. A cellphone will never be a low-resource type of communication. It is a matter of when, not if, it falls apart as an idea.
Lying to yourself will not change reality. A personal computer will never be a low-resource type of device. It is a matter of when, not if, it falls apart as an idea.
That is you, that is how deranged you sound.
A cellphone is not a car. Nor is a personal computer.
A BEV has fundamental problems that cannot be solved. It's worth noting that they are an older idea than combustion cars. It is in many ways, totally obsolete.
Ok I stand corrected, you definitely are deranged or you are literally a paid shill of Exxon, which in this case would be the same thing.
So when Joe Biden announces a huge pro-hydrogen program, is he a paid shill of Exxon?
Honestly, some of you guys are so deluded, it goes beyond projecting. You guys are seriously brainwashed by Musk. Some of you will sell out the entirety of the climate change movement if it means validation by a Fascist.
Lmao, we KNOW he is. American politics have extreme fossil lobbyists attached to them
Then explain the vast number of European politicians also supporting expansion of hydrogen? Are they all part of the fossil fuel lobby?
Yes.
The fossil fuel industry has enormous pockets. And politicians aren't known to understand the technology they are peddling.
"Everyone on the left is brainwashed by the oil companies. But me, supporting a position only held by one Fascist, is definitely not the crazy one here."
Yes? This is not a secret or conspiracy at all. It's called lobbying
The problem is that you have almost no one left on the left that actually supports your position. Not many scientists either.
lol we hate Musk. We dont like Teslas shitty cars. We do like EVs since they keep the air pollution outside of big cities and if used with renewable energies they are the best alternative to fossil fuel car travel we have.
So do FCEVs. There's no reason to oppose them. So don't.
No
The problem with FCEVs right now is cost.
First of all, we already have good electric distribution infrastructure, but don't have an industrially-sized hydrogen distribution infrastructure. It's way easier to install a new charging site than a new hydrogen refueling site. Building hydrogen out will be expensive, unless you're talking about vehicles with a centralized depot, like busses or ferries.
Second, fuel cells aren't really that efficient right now, and neither is electrolysis. Due to losses at each step, 100 miles worth of green hydrogen is way, way more expensive than 100 miles worth of electricity.
With more research, that could change. But for now, there's a reason you don't see many FCEVs.
The same story was said about wind, solar, even BEVs too. They all had to be expensive before they hit mass production.
But the advantage of FCEVs is that they have very low resource requirements. The cost floor is much below that of BEVs. Eventually, they will be as cheap as ICE cars or less, and the fuel will be cheaper than gasoline.
The efficiency argument is hugely exaggerated and is mostly coming from BEV companies. Even if you believe it, you should be aware that photovoltaics are terribly inefficient. But it doesn't matter because solar is made from sand and sunlight is everywhere. Hydrogen has the same idea going for it. Made from water and renewable energy, it too will be extremely cheap.
Funny, cause an combustion car has a lot bigger issues that can not be fixed and need to be addressed right now.
Which shares the same problems with hydrogen cars, btw.
FCEVs don't have the problem of combustion cars. It is the natural follow-up to them.
A fuel cell stack has a few hundred dollars worth of platinum. The rest is just conventional materials like steel or plastic. Not very expensive. The whole stack is very small too, weighing just 50kg for an average car.
So with mass production, it will be less than a combustion engine. You'll get more savings by getting rid of the transmission and catalytic convertor. You pencil out the cost, and going with "first principles," the whole vehicle will be the same or less than a conventional ICE car.
Yes, and an EV battery has a few hundreds of dollars worth of materials in it too, but somehow they're always going to be tens of thousands of dollars and fuel cells will get cheaper due to mass production?
Actually no. It has thousands of dollars of raw materials in it. That's why BEVs can't go behind a certain cost floor. But FCEVs can.
I don't think the people buying Teslas are doing so because they believe them to be an economically viable option. They're buying Teslas for the brand recognition/design more than anything.
Stop reposting Elon articles.
Lmao at the mass downvotes from Musk stans
This isn't about Elon. While it's about one of his companies, Elon has little to nothing to do with this story.
Yes. It is not about Elon. It's about the doomed nature of BEVs. Any technology that can give you a £17,000 repair bill just because it is wet means it is not a viable technology. Though it's sad that people have been fooled by Elon's bullshit about his companies. Which is why stories like this come up. Ultimately, BEVs are dead-end and this cannot be changed. It will be a matter of when BEVs are abandoned in the marketplace, not if.
EDIT: Again, no amount of lying to yourself will change reality. BEVs are a dead-end and always will be.
So a poorly made electric vehicle by one manufacturer means that the entire field is non-viable?
EDIT: Lmao, check out this guy's posts, every single comment is shitting on battery EVs and shilling hydrogen vehicles. I don't know how much you're being paid to shill for the fossil fuel industry, but I hope it's enough.
How many people are shilling for the BEV industry or Tesla? It is the biggest greenwashing scam of our time. Someone has to say something. You have reality reversed. It's the pro-BEV people that are shills.
All BEVs from everyone will have the same issues.
EDIT: Lying to yourself will not change reality. A BEV will never be a low-resource type of vehicles. It is a matter of when, not if, it falls apart as an idea.
Brilliant analysis
Explain to me how a car with a $20,000 battery can ever avoid a repair job of $20,000 once the battery dies? This is a problem that everyone will face.
And in America, the land of SUVs and pick-up trucks, these costs will be even higher.
EDIT: You won't change economics by lying to yourself. BEVs are simply not viable. At least, not anything with a big battery.
This isn't about the battery dying. It's about Tesla failing miserably at building a water resistant enclosure for their batteries, them pretending that it's somehow the customers fault.
It's both about the shittiness of Tesla, and the eventually doom of all BEVs. If you think companies like Ford or VW won't be building shit BEVs too, then I have a bridge to sell to you.
EDIT: Again, no amount of lying to yourself or others will save the BEV. It is doomed and always will be. If anything, you are just delaying real solutions to climate change.
Be honest. Are you paid off or are you just insane?
Joe Biden just announced a huge pro-hydrogen program? Is he paid off or insane?
It's time to ask yourself honestly: Why do you oppose green technology that happens to not be your favored technology? Perhaps you can reach a realization here.
Yes
Basically every left-leaning politician on Earth would have be too, in your mind.
Because hydrogen isn't as green as you might think.
Most ways of creating hydrogen involve toxic chemicals that pollute almost as much as ICE cars.
And the green ways of creating it lose about 30% of the energy put into it. Energy that could have been used to ... charge a battery directly.
And there's one way to get to zero emissions. Just like a BEV. The criticism is just a lot of BS from BEV companies.
Neither wind nor solar is all that efficient. Why hasn't anyone on the left come out and vigorous oppose them?
Because that's stupid, and frankly it is just climate change denial at this point. Something you are doing now.
It is quite easy.
A battery like that lasts longer than the car. It may not have done in the past, but it does do so today.
And if it breaks before then, you only need to replace a single cell to fix it.
Afterwards, you can just recycle and reuse those exotic metals used in its construction, so it doesn't require more pollution to create.
Much of that is wishful thinking. All batteries will die, and the repair cost will be insane. Not to mention it all applies to FCEVs and at a much lower cost and lower resource base.
Fundamentally, you can't. The same as how a gas car can't avoid a $5k transmission or engine replacement. Cars being totaled due to their most expensive part failing isn't really a new thing or unexpected. Beaters are sold for scrap literally every day because it's not worth repairing them.
All cars have a limited lifetime. For ICE cars, that's on average around 12 years, and things often start going wrong around ~150k miles. You can get particularly well-maintained cars to last much longer, but most people don't. Classic cars are mostly a hobbyist thing for a reason.
The question isn't "will the battery eventually die", its "will the battery last 15-20 years while still having 60-80% of its initial capacity?"
And based on real-world data, the answer appears to be "yes, unless you have a lemon or really abuse your battery." Lemons are also nothing new.
You can repair ICE cars. Unless you bought some complex luxury car, ICE cars are very cheap to maintain.
FCEVs will have something similar. They will be cheap to build and maintain. They do not have a giant battery to replace.
You? Lmao, nope. Gotta pay big bucks if you want new cars repaired. Pay a couple thousand upfront and then another couple thousand every year for new vehicle information. You can thank John Deere for that shift. I know, your car currently runs. For Americans, there is a certain point in buying a newer one is cheaper than repairing it. There will be a point where everyone is forced to have a shittier car because they are either all like that or you pay the big bucks. What are Americans going to do? Not buy cars, they don't have the freedom to not have one.
It's not one giant battery, but arrays of smaller batteries. At least that has been my experience with them. Battery goes bad and you replace that array. Not 20k but closer to 2k.
That is you, that is how deranged you sound.
A cellphone is not a car. Nor is a personal computer.
A BEV has fundamental problems that cannot be solved. It's worth noting that they are an older idea than combustion cars. It is in many ways, totally obsolete.
Ok I stand corrected, you definitely are deranged or you are literally a paid shill of Exxon, which in this case would be the same thing.
So when Joe Biden announces a huge pro-hydrogen program, is he a paid shill of Exxon?
Honestly, some of you guys are so deluded, it goes beyond projecting. You guys are seriously brainwashed by Musk. Some of you will sell out the entirety of the climate change movement if it means validation by a Fascist.
Lmao, we KNOW he is. American politics have extreme fossil lobbyists attached to them
Then explain the vast number of European politicians also supporting expansion of hydrogen? Are they all part of the fossil fuel lobby?
Yes.
The fossil fuel industry has enormous pockets. And politicians aren't known to understand the technology they are peddling.
"Everyone on the left is brainwashed by the oil companies. But me, supporting a position only held by one Fascist, is definitely not the crazy one here."
Yes? This is not a secret or conspiracy at all. It's called lobbying
The problem is that you have almost no one left on the left that actually supports your position. Not many scientists either.
lol we hate Musk. We dont like Teslas shitty cars. We do like EVs since they keep the air pollution outside of big cities and if used with renewable energies they are the best alternative to fossil fuel car travel we have.
So do FCEVs. There's no reason to oppose them. So don't.
No
The problem with FCEVs right now is cost.
First of all, we already have good electric distribution infrastructure, but don't have an industrially-sized hydrogen distribution infrastructure. It's way easier to install a new charging site than a new hydrogen refueling site. Building hydrogen out will be expensive, unless you're talking about vehicles with a centralized depot, like busses or ferries.
Second, fuel cells aren't really that efficient right now, and neither is electrolysis. Due to losses at each step, 100 miles worth of green hydrogen is way, way more expensive than 100 miles worth of electricity.
With more research, that could change. But for now, there's a reason you don't see many FCEVs.
The same story was said about wind, solar, even BEVs too. They all had to be expensive before they hit mass production.
But the advantage of FCEVs is that they have very low resource requirements. The cost floor is much below that of BEVs. Eventually, they will be as cheap as ICE cars or less, and the fuel will be cheaper than gasoline.
The efficiency argument is hugely exaggerated and is mostly coming from BEV companies. Even if you believe it, you should be aware that photovoltaics are terribly inefficient. But it doesn't matter because solar is made from sand and sunlight is everywhere. Hydrogen has the same idea going for it. Made from water and renewable energy, it too will be extremely cheap.
Funny, cause an combustion car has a lot bigger issues that can not be fixed and need to be addressed right now.
Which shares the same problems with hydrogen cars, btw.
FCEVs don't have the problem of combustion cars. It is the natural follow-up to them.
How much do you think a new PEM fuel cell stack costs?
About US$110,000 as it turns out.
A fuel cell stack has a few hundred dollars worth of platinum. The rest is just conventional materials like steel or plastic. Not very expensive. The whole stack is very small too, weighing just 50kg for an average car.
So with mass production, it will be less than a combustion engine. You'll get more savings by getting rid of the transmission and catalytic convertor. You pencil out the cost, and going with "first principles," the whole vehicle will be the same or less than a conventional ICE car.
Yes, and an EV battery has a few hundreds of dollars worth of materials in it too, but somehow they're always going to be tens of thousands of dollars and fuel cells will get cheaper due to mass production?
Actually no. It has thousands of dollars of raw materials in it. That's why BEVs can't go behind a certain cost floor. But FCEVs can.
I don't think the people buying Teslas are doing so because they believe them to be an economically viable option. They're buying Teslas for the brand recognition/design more than anything.