Churchill was a racist idiot and that’s still a dumb quote.
Democracy is a plane with 20 people on it. Nine vote not to crash it and eleven vote to fly it into a mountain, and that means everyone dies because democracy
So instead you choose authoritarianism: 20 people on a plan and one of them shoots the pilot, takes over, and crashes it. Everyone dies.
Yeah, the problems with democracy are rarely solved by less democracy. It just turns into "Instead of many idiots voting to do something stupid, one idiot votes to do something stupid."
Think bigger. Fly the plane in circles, and demand the people give you whatever you want to occasionally land it and bring some supplies onboard.
Just don't die of old age.
Love how you think that not only are there only two options, but that democracy isn’t also authoritarian. It’s just mob rule instead of an individual.
Why don't you enlighten us on the other options then? I'd love to hear it.
That's... precisely why the original quote said "democracy is the worst form of government". It has fundamental flaws. But it's still the better than everything else.
Churchill's point is that stupid things can still happen in democracies, but no one has come up with a better alternative. What would you suggest as the better alternative? If you don't have one, then you just helped prove Churchill's point!
Every human knows and has used a superior system from the time they first started playing with other people: Consensus.
...which is basically what democracy is, but systemitized such that it can be applied at scale.
If we had a consensus based government I wouldn’t have a fascist as a representative
There are more people than just you in your district
Yes and we should all agree on who is going to represent us. Otherwise the losing party is disenfranchised.
You're not going to get unanimous approval for anything when your group size is several thousand people
Maybe the groups should be smaller then
Also, smaller groups mean more representatives, which means unanimity/consensus as you say would also be unlikely at the national level.
I don't believe in nations, either, so that's not a problem for me
Sorry to inform you of this, but nations exist whether you want to believe in them or not.
Just like God, right? God exists regardless of whether I believe in Him?
Democracy is majority rule, and fuck whatever the minority wants.
Consensus is we don’t do anything unless we all agree.
Then you don't do anything. Ok got it, 👍🏾
So the only way to get anything done is to do it against the will of at least some people? You've never been in a group where you agreed on a course of action together?
In a group.. you mean a very limited setting where you can discuss directly with everyone and get direct feedback in real time from everyone?
How do you suggest that this might work on a large scale, with millions of people?
Edit: And if for example 10 million people somehow found consensus and then one guy is like "lmao no", everything gets canned?
There's lots of ideas about this, but my solution is to simply eliminate the idea that we need to rule millions of people.
So some form of tribalism? And what if you generally like living in your consensus community but one thing rubs you wrong and you're against it? You just leave and look for a community where you agree with everything 100% all the time? Good luck with that.
What would you do if your roommate wouldn't help with the housework? Or had some quirk you didn't like? Would you just leave or would you try to work it out?
One thing this thread has taught me is a lot more people than I think can't conceive of alternatives to the shitty system we have. Churchill said it's the best so we're not gonna change it, right?
No, you are not elaborating on your better alternatives. We KNOW that democracy is nort perfect. We are just looking for a solution that is doable in todays world. So now you come in and claim to somehow have a better way to do it. But when questioned, your answers are very vague, we have to pull all the info out of your nose. This tells me you probably don't have any better solutions or just some vague idea of one and no real world application for it.
Of course I would try to work it out. But you just assume this always happens, but what if it DOESN'T?
I'm sorry I didn't have a full treatise on the implementation of anarchism in a modern society prepared for you. I forgot the Internet is Very Serious Business™ and I get paid for educating people on it, not my actual job.
1 votes with the hijackers because they share a hometown
2 vote no
another 2 vote strong no
the other 12 don't participate because they don't want to get too political (we have 40% voter turnout where I live)
and I've been through enough elections to see how we are all heading to a crash, every time.
But if we made you running everything it would be perfect.
That's the thing with anti-democracy sentiment the people who advocate for it always assume they, or someone who agrees with them on everything, is going to run things. No one imagines themselves in a slave society being a slave.
No, nine vote to crash it, seven vote to go left and four vote to go right.
Crashing it is! Thanks, first past the post voting system.
Churchill was a racist idiot and that’s still a dumb quote.
Democracy is a plane with 20 people on it. Nine vote not to crash it and eleven vote to fly it into a mountain, and that means everyone dies because democracy
So instead you choose authoritarianism: 20 people on a plan and one of them shoots the pilot, takes over, and crashes it. Everyone dies.
Yeah, the problems with democracy are rarely solved by less democracy. It just turns into "Instead of many idiots voting to do something stupid, one idiot votes to do something stupid."
Think bigger. Fly the plane in circles, and demand the people give you whatever you want to occasionally land it and bring some supplies onboard.
Just don't die of old age.
Love how you think that not only are there only two options, but that democracy isn’t also authoritarian. It’s just mob rule instead of an individual.
Why don't you enlighten us on the other options then? I'd love to hear it.
That's... precisely why the original quote said "democracy is the worst form of government". It has fundamental flaws. But it's still the better than everything else.
Churchill's point is that stupid things can still happen in democracies, but no one has come up with a better alternative. What would you suggest as the better alternative? If you don't have one, then you just helped prove Churchill's point!
Every human knows and has used a superior system from the time they first started playing with other people: Consensus.
...which is basically what democracy is, but systemitized such that it can be applied at scale.
If we had a consensus based government I wouldn’t have a fascist as a representative
There are more people than just you in your district
Yes and we should all agree on who is going to represent us. Otherwise the losing party is disenfranchised.
You're not going to get unanimous approval for anything when your group size is several thousand people
Maybe the groups should be smaller then
Also, smaller groups mean more representatives, which means unanimity/consensus as you say would also be unlikely at the national level.
I don't believe in nations, either, so that's not a problem for me
Sorry to inform you of this, but nations exist whether you want to believe in them or not.
Just like God, right? God exists regardless of whether I believe in Him?
Perhaps. But this is the system we have.
So... A form of democracy?
Democracy is majority rule, and fuck whatever the minority wants.
Consensus is we don’t do anything unless we all agree.
Then you don't do anything. Ok got it, 👍🏾
So the only way to get anything done is to do it against the will of at least some people? You've never been in a group where you agreed on a course of action together?
In a group.. you mean a very limited setting where you can discuss directly with everyone and get direct feedback in real time from everyone?
How do you suggest that this might work on a large scale, with millions of people?
Edit: And if for example 10 million people somehow found consensus and then one guy is like "lmao no", everything gets canned?
There's lots of ideas about this, but my solution is to simply eliminate the idea that we need to rule millions of people.
So some form of tribalism? And what if you generally like living in your consensus community but one thing rubs you wrong and you're against it? You just leave and look for a community where you agree with everything 100% all the time? Good luck with that.
What would you do if your roommate wouldn't help with the housework? Or had some quirk you didn't like? Would you just leave or would you try to work it out?
One thing this thread has taught me is a lot more people than I think can't conceive of alternatives to the shitty system we have. Churchill said it's the best so we're not gonna change it, right?
No, you are not elaborating on your better alternatives. We KNOW that democracy is nort perfect. We are just looking for a solution that is doable in todays world. So now you come in and claim to somehow have a better way to do it. But when questioned, your answers are very vague, we have to pull all the info out of your nose. This tells me you probably don't have any better solutions or just some vague idea of one and no real world application for it.
Of course I would try to work it out. But you just assume this always happens, but what if it DOESN'T?
I'm sorry I didn't have a full treatise on the implementation of anarchism in a modern society prepared for you. I forgot the Internet is Very Serious Business™ and I get paid for educating people on it, not my actual job.
So nothing gets done then.
...what do you think democracy is?
Are you....high???
Yes but also yes
It's more like,
and I've been through enough elections to see how we are all heading to a crash, every time.
But if we made you running everything it would be perfect.
That's the thing with anti-democracy sentiment the people who advocate for it always assume they, or someone who agrees with them on everything, is going to run things. No one imagines themselves in a slave society being a slave.
No, nine vote to crash it, seven vote to go left and four vote to go right.
Crashing it is! Thanks, first past the post voting system.