If that's what you think this says, then you completely misunderstand anarchism.
This book describes current and past societies that have functioned using anarchist principles such as horizontality, mutual aid, none of which are utopian, but all of which are significantly more equitable than systems like capitalism, feudalism, authoritarianism, and statehood.
Thank you for the link! AnarchistLibrary is cool but sometimes it's hard to find the solid stuff from the tumblr rants.
I agree, it's amazing how "revolutionary" it is to hold the idea that people can lead and cooperate just fine without a someone "on top" making all the rules everyone just follows because they say so. Some people just can't fathom not being lead around by the nose.
They think we're utopian, but I'd rather work towards an equitable world using anarchist principles, knowing it won't create a utopia, than give up and let greed and hatred win out because that's the status quo.
"This current situation is the best we've got so far" is such a low bar.
Amen. One of the things I like best about anarchism is it introduces concepts that we can begin to practice immediately vs. awaiting some future revolution.
I really like the book I linked because to me it's so much easier to read and digest than some of the famous works by authors like Kropotkin or Goldman.
My ex-wife liked to practice horizontality with everyone she met.
I, too, choose to practice horizontality with SatansMaggotyCumFart's wife
Ex-wife.
Very important distinction.
Ayyyyy
Democratically owning the means of production among the workers. Instead of some greedy rich guy who'd want to give as little of the profit as possible to the people actually making the product or providing the service.
See, that works for a farm.
I don't see how it works for a $40 billion chip fabrication plant.
Work isn't just physical you know. Management, planning, etc is work too, and they'd get paid according to how many want to do them, and how hard they are.
The difference is, like I said, that some greedy rich bastard who’d want to give as little of the profit as possible to the people actually making the product or providing the service wouldn't own that means of production.
Simple. You know all those scientists that work at $40 billion chip plants? They would actually take the $40 billion and not some random suit who doesn't do any of the actual work. Executive leadership is important, but it's not worth 1000x the average worker's salary.
So who builds it? Do you just get together with 40,000 of your friends and go "hey if everyone here chips in a million, we can compete with TSMC"?
Oh no, a challenge. Let's not even try.
Organizing it through a Socialist government would probably be the easiest.
And complaining about such a tiny challenge is hilarious lmao
There are examples of exactly this occuring regarding renewables, there are community funded battery/solar farms here in Aus.
If it can be done on that scale, it can definitely be scaled up, it's just a matter of willingness of the community.
You mean capitalist cooperatives? They exist and even Milei wants to turn Aerolíneas Argentinas into one
Co-ops and unions are certainly steps in the right direction, but they're more like temporary band-aids over Capitalism instead of implementing proper Socialism.
Because proper socialism always devolves into tyranny
As capitalism is currently doing...
Source?
[gestures wildly at everything]
Strawman.
People always say this and then fail to provide a single example of when proper socialism existed and then destroyed the country.
"This theory when applied didn't end like in the book, therefore it's not really that theory"
Communism without actually sharing isn't communism. Democracy without fair elections isn't democracy. Socialism without the socialisation of the benefit of production is not socialism. Your ignorance of these things doesn't change what they are.
Again, the "the theory when applied doesn't look like in the book so it's not real communism"
No. The theory when applied doesn't follow the book. The difference is something called contextual nuance, and you have no grasp of it.
Your position is like North Korea claiming democracy doesn't work because they say they are one and it's not working.
The theory when applied ends up not following the book... I wonder why?
The theory when applied ends up not following the book... I wonder why?
Because you can't read, as proven.
The difference is something called contextual nuance, and you have no grasp of it.
Your position is like North Korea claiming democracy doesn't work because they say they are one and it's not working.
You can continue acting stupid, but in your case I'm not sure it's an act.
North Korea's definitely working. If it didn't work it would have collapsed. It's still hell, but a working one
No, it's not a democracy because it doesn't even bother following actual democratic principles. It's just like Napoleon's idea of democracy: I am the people, therefore if I have absolute power I'm being democratic.
Basically Cuba on steroids
I copy-pasted my answer because you copy-pasted your comment
The only thing like Napoleon's around here is your ego. Shame you don't have the brains to go with it.
North Korea calls itself democratic. Everyone in the country votes for a new leader every five years. It's just that there's only one name on the ballot.
One would be foolhardy to call that democracy.
One would be even more foolhardy to argue that this means that democracy is a stupid idea.
All while the world's current top superpower is right beside them, sees them as an enemy, and has a still ongoing embargo on them for 60 years now to prevent them from trading with other countries. That'll hopefully change once China's Belt and Road Initiative is complete though.
Clearly this model works. It does require expelling landleeches, plantation owners and billionaires if they don't hand over the means of production to the workers (like Cuba did after the revolution), but I don't think most people would mind that.
It also historically requires fighting off the US though because military, oil, and other private corporation owners can't exploit Socialist countries as much, which is harder.
That first paragraph already proves that you can't be reasoned with
I can't think of anything to refute your comment
So you understand my point. Thanks lol
No, it's just pointless to argue with someone so out of touch with reality he believes Cuba is one of the most democratic countries
It is though? People directly nominate individuals in their area, and the ballots are checked in public where anyone can attend.
This results in a Parliament that evenly and properly represents the entire population. That's why Cuba has an unusually high percentage of women in the government, 53.22% now (U.S has 29.0%), and better LGBT rights than the U.S. nowadays.
Being rich as an advantage is also taken away by banning advertising yourself/anyone. You need social connections with the people in your area (Socialism) instead.
Not knowing something is fine, but being ignorant and arrogant about it is unfortunate. Though I suppose it is unbelievable, if you're in a Capitalist country, to hear that a nation has solved homelessness, starvation, and education by just changing its political/economic system (and fighting off the US after).
Imagine its sheer potential once it can trade with other countries with that massive advantage, after the US is eventually forced to stop the embargo.
Why is dissent brutally repressed then? Also writing walls of text won't make you right
You mean the 2021 "protests"? Most of it was pro-government/revolution ones against CIA-backed 'protests' that were spun up by Fox News to be pro-US; by blurring out signs and the like. And a fake Twitter campaign run by bots.
These aren't declassified until decades later for obvious reasons. They're called "color revolutions" and are staged by billion dollar US corporations to set the stage for military or political action. Best way to spot them is seeing if they have US-flags or have signs with generic lines like "Freedom".
Also writing walls of text won’t make you right
Thanks for the "wall of text"! Also, the meme is good.
I didn't know long form writing was inherently bad to some TIL 😂
That's an oxymoron. There is literally no such thing as a capitalist cooperative. By definition, co-ops are socialist. Also, the right wing populist wants to socialize the airlines?
Yes, he does want to give the airlines to the workers
Also touch some fucking grass to see how agricultural cooperatives work under capitalism
And the solution is?
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/peter-gelderloos-anarchy-works
Bro thinks an utopia will work
If that's what you think this says, then you completely misunderstand anarchism.
This book describes current and past societies that have functioned using anarchist principles such as horizontality, mutual aid, none of which are utopian, but all of which are significantly more equitable than systems like capitalism, feudalism, authoritarianism, and statehood.
Thank you for the link! AnarchistLibrary is cool but sometimes it's hard to find the solid stuff from the tumblr rants.
I agree, it's amazing how "revolutionary" it is to hold the idea that people can lead and cooperate just fine without a someone "on top" making all the rules everyone just follows because they say so. Some people just can't fathom not being lead around by the nose.
They think we're utopian, but I'd rather work towards an equitable world using anarchist principles, knowing it won't create a utopia, than give up and let greed and hatred win out because that's the status quo.
"This current situation is the best we've got so far" is such a low bar.
Amen. One of the things I like best about anarchism is it introduces concepts that we can begin to practice immediately vs. awaiting some future revolution.
I really like the book I linked because to me it's so much easier to read and digest than some of the famous works by authors like Kropotkin or Goldman.
Audible Anarchist has also uploaded a few chapters from the book, which I've been listening to on my walks: https://piped.privacydev.net/channel/UCaO1QA8QL99_eb0XhJI2Fyw
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaO1QA8QL99_eb0XhJI2Fyw
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/channel/UCaO1QA8QL99_eb0XhJI2Fyw
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
My ex-wife liked to practice horizontality with everyone she met.
I, too, choose to practice horizontality with SatansMaggotyCumFart's wife
Ex-wife.
Very important distinction.
Ayyyyy
Democratically owning the means of production among the workers. Instead of some greedy rich guy who'd want to give as little of the profit as possible to the people actually making the product or providing the service.
See, that works for a farm.
I don't see how it works for a $40 billion chip fabrication plant.
Work isn't just physical you know. Management, planning, etc is work too, and they'd get paid according to how many want to do them, and how hard they are.
The difference is, like I said, that some greedy rich bastard who’d want to give as little of the profit as possible to the people actually making the product or providing the service wouldn't own that means of production.
Simple. You know all those scientists that work at $40 billion chip plants? They would actually take the $40 billion and not some random suit who doesn't do any of the actual work. Executive leadership is important, but it's not worth 1000x the average worker's salary.
So who builds it? Do you just get together with 40,000 of your friends and go "hey if everyone here chips in a million, we can compete with TSMC"?
Oh no, a challenge. Let's not even try.
Organizing it through a Socialist government would probably be the easiest.
And complaining about such a tiny challenge is hilarious lmao
There are examples of exactly this occuring regarding renewables, there are community funded battery/solar farms here in Aus.
If it can be done on that scale, it can definitely be scaled up, it's just a matter of willingness of the community.
You mean capitalist cooperatives? They exist and even Milei wants to turn Aerolíneas Argentinas into one
Co-ops and unions are certainly steps in the right direction, but they're more like temporary band-aids over Capitalism instead of implementing proper Socialism.
Because proper socialism always devolves into tyranny
As capitalism is currently doing...
Source?
[gestures wildly at everything]
Strawman.
People always say this and then fail to provide a single example of when proper socialism existed and then destroyed the country.
"This theory when applied didn't end like in the book, therefore it's not really that theory"
Communism without actually sharing isn't communism. Democracy without fair elections isn't democracy. Socialism without the socialisation of the benefit of production is not socialism. Your ignorance of these things doesn't change what they are.
Again, the "the theory when applied doesn't look like in the book so it's not real communism"
No. The theory when applied doesn't follow the book. The difference is something called contextual nuance, and you have no grasp of it.
Your position is like North Korea claiming democracy doesn't work because they say they are one and it's not working.
The theory when applied ends up not following the book... I wonder why?
Because you can't read, as proven.
The difference is something called contextual nuance, and you have no grasp of it.
Your position is like North Korea claiming democracy doesn't work because they say they are one and it's not working.
You can continue acting stupid, but in your case I'm not sure it's an act.
North Korea's definitely working. If it didn't work it would have collapsed. It's still hell, but a working one
No, it's not a democracy because it doesn't even bother following actual democratic principles. It's just like Napoleon's idea of democracy: I am the people, therefore if I have absolute power I'm being democratic.
Basically Cuba on steroids
I copy-pasted my answer because you copy-pasted your comment
The only thing like Napoleon's around here is your ego. Shame you don't have the brains to go with it.
Love your response, totally not an ad hominem
North Korea calls itself democratic. Everyone in the country votes for a new leader every five years. It's just that there's only one name on the ballot.
One would be foolhardy to call that democracy.
One would be even more foolhardy to argue that this means that democracy is a stupid idea.
Likewise with socialism.
How so? Cuba has one of the most open democracies in the world. Plus free healthcare, no homelessness, and enough free high level education to provide Italy with doctors during the pandemic.
All while the world's current top superpower is right beside them, sees them as an enemy, and has a still ongoing embargo on them for 60 years now to prevent them from trading with other countries. That'll hopefully change once China's Belt and Road Initiative is complete though.
Clearly this model works. It does require expelling landleeches, plantation owners and billionaires if they don't hand over the means of production to the workers (like Cuba did after the revolution), but I don't think most people would mind that.
It also historically requires fighting off the US though because military, oil, and other private corporation owners can't exploit Socialist countries as much, which is harder.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Cuba has one of the most open democracies in the world
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
That first paragraph already proves that you can't be reasoned with
So you understand my point. Thanks lol
No, it's just pointless to argue with someone so out of touch with reality he believes Cuba is one of the most democratic countries
It is though? People directly nominate individuals in their area, and the ballots are checked in public where anyone can attend.
This results in a Parliament that evenly and properly represents the entire population. That's why Cuba has an unusually high percentage of women in the government, 53.22% now (U.S has 29.0%), and better LGBT rights than the U.S. nowadays.
The power of a proper democracy.
Being rich as an advantage is also taken away by banning advertising yourself/anyone. You need social connections with the people in your area (Socialism) instead.
Not knowing something is fine, but being ignorant and arrogant about it is unfortunate. Though I suppose it is unbelievable, if you're in a Capitalist country, to hear that a nation has solved homelessness, starvation, and education by just changing its political/economic system (and fighting off the US after).
Imagine its sheer potential once it can trade with other countries with that massive advantage, after the US is eventually forced to stop the embargo.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
It is though
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Why is dissent brutally repressed then? Also writing walls of text won't make you right
You mean the 2021 "protests"? Most of it was pro-government/revolution ones against CIA-backed 'protests' that were spun up by Fox News to be pro-US; by blurring out signs and the like. And a fake Twitter campaign run by bots.
Second thought made a great video covering the whole thing; he has sources in the description.
This is nothing new for the US; the CIA staged a coup in Iran to overthrow the democratically elected Mosaddegh because his policies would benefit Iran instead of US's oil companies, caused a mass killing in Indonesia in 1965 and a coup in Chile to replace it with a military dictatorship for similar reasons. Great way to justify military action.
These aren't declassified until decades later for obvious reasons. They're called "color revolutions" and are staged by billion dollar US corporations to set the stage for military or political action. Best way to spot them is seeing if they have US-flags or have signs with generic lines like "Freedom".
Thanks for the "wall of text"! Also, the meme is good.
I didn't know long form writing was inherently bad to some TIL 😂
Downvoting in a discussion is kinda cringe bro ngl, specially without replying why
Bro got triggered
That's an oxymoron. There is literally no such thing as a capitalist cooperative. By definition, co-ops are socialist. Also, the right wing populist wants to socialize the airlines?
Yes, he does want to give the airlines to the workers
Also touch some fucking grass to see how agricultural cooperatives work under capitalism