So, as far as I can see the ruling was that the guy hadn't sufficiently proved through his actions (e.g. protesting, joining any anti-war movements or in this case even expressing this view to anyone beforehand) that he was an actual conscientious objector and not just a chancer who didn't want to serve.
The fact that he played PUBG was brought up as part of the suggestion that he was just having a go but wasn't the whole case against him. Indeed tbh I can't really see anything suggesting it was a particularly important consideration compared to the lack of positive evidence of conscientious objection but obviously it's the bit that's going to get clicks.
Can't hold a moral stance without shouting it at everyone around you!
If you don’t join such groups, do you really believe it strong enough?
Kinda feels like that only holds when you hold a minority opinion (from a larger societal view). There are no big, explicit groups for being anti-random murder or government-mandated molestations. Most of us are just sorta passively against certain things.
If we want governments to respect people's sincere beliefs, religions, and culture then they need some system to determine them. It may not be perfect but if someone is claiming to be a dedicated pacifist but has never expressed that except to get out of service it's a little suspicious.
Edit: I removed a stupid joke about pacifist video games because that's not at all the point
I'm a pacifist and my favorite game is dark souls 2. This is because I am aware of the difference between games and reality.
While I do enjoy dark souls 2, and I don't think it deserves a lot of the hate it gets, I am surprised to see someone call it their favorite while the other 2 exist. What do you like about 2 more than 1 and 3?
I haven't played 3, but I say 2 over 1 because it actually fucking works. You can't get randomly trapped in way too powerful zones, corpses disapper so you don't trip on them, you can't get cursed so badly you have to backtrack the entire known world, etc. Also, whoever designed Blighttown took the "bug infested swamp" theme WAY too literally.
The interlocking map is certainly "cool", but as far as gameplay is concerned, it's pretty much the worst way to lay out a world, because you can't easily get from one place to another, and it will very quickly confuse everybody. There's one level, new londo ruins, that you can't attempt without using a pretty rare consumable each time, and when I was attempting it, firelink shrine was extinguished, meaning I had to run for like 5 minutes before each attempt on top of the consumable problem.
Hbomberguy has a great video about it, you should definitely check it out if you are interested in the games, he obviously puts it much better than I can
I know pacifists, and they generally don't spend their free time playing violent games.
As a pacifist, I play the SHIT out of some violent video games because guess what? I know the difference between interactive fiction and reality. Shooting supermutants, throwing goblins at trolls and mowing down mantisaurs on a moon called Monarch is FUN. Real humans killing real humans isn't.
That you think your childish notion of pacifist absolutism must be the norm suggests that YOUR grasp on reality isn't too firm, though..
I love horror films with terrifying vengeful spirits. I get sad when someone kills a harmless spider. I love running around the wasteland of Fallout games and blasting the baddies. I cried when a bird flew into the glass of my bedroom window and died.
Honestly, the comments show who read the article and who didn't. It's really not hard to see that the court was looking for a history of conscientious objection and didn't find any proof, instead finding arguments to the contrary.
Hang on, because I'm morally opposed to war and violence, but I'm not out attending rallies or protests. While my arthritic old body isn't what anyone wants in battle, if I were healthy, and we had a draft, I'd be a conscientious objector with no history of activism.
Would South Korea put me in jail?
Would you have never mentioned this to anyone, knowing your country has mandatory service? Never protested about mandatory military service? Are you not even a member of an anti-military group? In many countries you have the option of joining. When you don't have an option not being involved doesn't make sense.
No, it doesn't come up very often, and discussing politics and morality is considered impolite. I don't join "groups" but I don't see how that makes a difference.
The point being that if you are a conscientious objector in a country with mandatory service and few exceptions, perhaps you should do some stuff as evidence for that. Otherwise you experience the consequences of inaction. In an ideal world armies don't exist and if so joining would be entirely voluntary but we don't live in an ideal world.
How long does someone need to have a belief before it counts?
I mean starting objecting too close to service is likely to be seen as faking it to get out. How close is too close is not something for me to determine. The length of time a belief is held has little to do with the strength of a particular belief. But that's even harder to judge.
It really doesn't matter because short of being in a publicallt visible leadership position it will never be enough.
Join rallies, but anonymously? Doesn't count.
Attended a rally openly but no one took a picture? Doesn't count.
Told one person? Not enough witnesses.
Told multiple friends? Just covering for you.
Decided this week based on an experience, but no rallies or groups doing scheduled stuff? Doesn't count.
Publicly attended 3 rallies over the last few months? Just doing it to avoid getting drafted, doesn't count because it wasn't long enough prior.
The draft is still mandatory in the US for men 18 and above, by the by
Yeah but we're not under a perma draft order, haven't had one since 'Nam
So, as far as I can see the ruling was that the guy hadn't sufficiently proved through his actions (e.g. protesting, joining any anti-war movements or in this case even expressing this view to anyone beforehand) that he was an actual conscientious objector and not just a chancer who didn't want to serve.
The fact that he played PUBG was brought up as part of the suggestion that he was just having a go but wasn't the whole case against him. Indeed tbh I can't really see anything suggesting it was a particularly important consideration compared to the lack of positive evidence of conscientious objection but obviously it's the bit that's going to get clicks.
Can't hold a moral stance without shouting it at everyone around you!
If you don’t join such groups, do you really believe it strong enough?
Kinda feels like that only holds when you hold a minority opinion (from a larger societal view). There are no big, explicit groups for being anti-random murder or government-mandated molestations. Most of us are just sorta passively against certain things.
If we want governments to respect people's sincere beliefs, religions, and culture then they need some system to determine them. It may not be perfect but if someone is claiming to be a dedicated pacifist but has never expressed that except to get out of service it's a little suspicious.
Edit: I removed a stupid joke about pacifist video games because that's not at all the point
I'm a pacifist and my favorite game is dark souls 2. This is because I am aware of the difference between games and reality.
While I do enjoy dark souls 2, and I don't think it deserves a lot of the hate it gets, I am surprised to see someone call it their favorite while the other 2 exist. What do you like about 2 more than 1 and 3?
I haven't played 3, but I say 2 over 1 because it actually fucking works. You can't get randomly trapped in way too powerful zones, corpses disapper so you don't trip on them, you can't get cursed so badly you have to backtrack the entire known world, etc. Also, whoever designed Blighttown took the "bug infested swamp" theme WAY too literally.
The interlocking map is certainly "cool", but as far as gameplay is concerned, it's pretty much the worst way to lay out a world, because you can't easily get from one place to another, and it will very quickly confuse everybody. There's one level, new londo ruins, that you can't attempt without using a pretty rare consumable each time, and when I was attempting it, firelink shrine was extinguished, meaning I had to run for like 5 minutes before each attempt on top of the consumable problem.
Hbomberguy has a great video about it, you should definitely check it out if you are interested in the games, he obviously puts it much better than I can
As a pacifist, I play the SHIT out of some violent video games because guess what? I know the difference between interactive fiction and reality. Shooting supermutants, throwing goblins at trolls and mowing down mantisaurs on a moon called Monarch is FUN. Real humans killing real humans isn't.
That you think your childish notion of pacifist absolutism must be the norm suggests that YOUR grasp on reality isn't too firm, though..
I love horror films with terrifying vengeful spirits. I get sad when someone kills a harmless spider. I love running around the wasteland of Fallout games and blasting the baddies. I cried when a bird flew into the glass of my bedroom window and died.
Honestly, the comments show who read the article and who didn't. It's really not hard to see that the court was looking for a history of conscientious objection and didn't find any proof, instead finding arguments to the contrary.
Hang on, because I'm morally opposed to war and violence, but I'm not out attending rallies or protests. While my arthritic old body isn't what anyone wants in battle, if I were healthy, and we had a draft, I'd be a conscientious objector with no history of activism.
Would South Korea put me in jail?
Would you have never mentioned this to anyone, knowing your country has mandatory service? Never protested about mandatory military service? Are you not even a member of an anti-military group? In many countries you have the option of joining. When you don't have an option not being involved doesn't make sense.
No, it doesn't come up very often, and discussing politics and morality is considered impolite. I don't join "groups" but I don't see how that makes a difference.
The point being that if you are a conscientious objector in a country with mandatory service and few exceptions, perhaps you should do some stuff as evidence for that. Otherwise you experience the consequences of inaction. In an ideal world armies don't exist and if so joining would be entirely voluntary but we don't live in an ideal world.
How long does someone need to have a belief before it counts?
I mean starting objecting too close to service is likely to be seen as faking it to get out. How close is too close is not something for me to determine. The length of time a belief is held has little to do with the strength of a particular belief. But that's even harder to judge.
It really doesn't matter because short of being in a publicallt visible leadership position it will never be enough.
Join rallies, but anonymously? Doesn't count.
Attended a rally openly but no one took a picture? Doesn't count.
Told one person? Not enough witnesses.
Told multiple friends? Just covering for you.
Decided this week based on an experience, but no rallies or groups doing scheduled stuff? Doesn't count.
Publicly attended 3 rallies over the last few months? Just doing it to avoid getting drafted, doesn't count because it wasn't long enough prior.
The draft is still mandatory in the US for men 18 and above, by the by
Yeah but we're not under a perma draft order, haven't had one since 'Nam