If you're being punched in the gut, it's not reassuring that the other option is going to use a bat instead.
But why clear the way for the worse guy to get to you?
Ya, Trump bad and all, but maybe it's Biden who should do more to get the anti-genocide vote. Isn't getting votes part of his job?
No, the president gets our votes automatically because he's got the job already and can beat the mean fascist man without tying! All we have to do is verbally abuse anyone criticizing Biden and we'll surely have him as president again and there'll be no problems come 2028 or anything!
there'll be no problems come 2028 or anything!
Downvote them all you want, it’s a very poignant point that’s left at the wayside of defeating Trump right now. Joe wins in ‘24? The threat of a second Trump presidency is deferred, but he has fundamentally transformed American politics regardless
"Deferred" like he's likely to be back in 2028. Extremely unlikely he will be eligible by then, and even more unlikely he'll even be able to mentally/physically fit enough to campaign. He's already falling to pieces.
So? He’s the alt-right iconoclast currently yes, but the undercurrent was there in the McCain-Obama race, and Trump demonstrated the easy mode to power of populism to the RNC. Look at the current House shitgibbons, and how most of them have survived reelection, look at who just stepped down at the RNC to make way for a groomed successor.
Trump going to jail, being disqualified, or succumbing to himself wouldn’t unopen that box.
Yes, others will claw over each other to try to be the next idol. It doesn't mean anyone will succeed.
There is no 100% win on the table here. Absolutists like you need to accept that sometimes, you just need to take the win you can get, and work towards incremental improvement for the next time.
And no, communist revolution won't solve anything, nor is it even remotely possible.
Who mentioned communist revolution? Quit building strawmen, tf
You’re delusional if you think Trump is an aberration. He isn’t a hive mind leader, but he has shown the right how coded and open fascist language can be used by a demagogue to gain and wield power. That message has been well and roundly received on the right, where realpolitik never died.
I’m no absolutist, but the moderate left needs to stop pretending they care about progressive votes when the party’s selection process is entirely performative. Are we a coalition of unity, or subservient fringe? If I don’t matter enough to have a say, why do I matter enough to be bullied into compliance?
I mention the communist revolution thing because your points echo a lot of tankies here.
Vote progressive all you want. Volunteer for their campaigns. I'm all for it, as long as you're not giving the populists/fascists ammo (Ex: attack ads). But if you don't fall in line and vote blue for the presidential election, well, I have zero respect for people who can't prioritize and vote for the real candidate that they think is obviously better, in this political environment where we're teetering on the edge of facism.
If you vote independent or don't vote, the only statement you're making is that you'd rather destroy this country than vote against tyranny vote for someone that isn't your first choice, but leagues better than the other.
Especially since we already got Trump in 2016 because people couldn't swallow their distaste and vote for Hilary.
Especially since we already got Trump in 2016 because people couldn't swallow their distaste and vote for Hilary.
Ah. There it is. Those other people who didn’t vote for my team after we faked a primary are bad. Not my party who forced on the electorate an Nth generation political insider, who was broadly unappealing, had a problematic history, and a hawkish foreign policy track record.
The refusal to accept responsibility for the 2016 election is why we’re having this conversation, again. People saw the naked corruption in the primaries, and got disenchanted. Not because ‘my guy didn’t win the primary and I’m butthurt’, but because the DNC cheated. Openly. Admitted as much in court when sued about it.
But then everyone is supposed to “fall in line” behind an unrepresentative candidate the central committee has chosen, right? And you’re calling other people tankies???
Yes. That's exactly it. I had no love for Clinton, or even the dems. I would have preferred Bernie, simply because I felt he would do better against Trump.
And at that point, it wasn't even my side vs their side. I wasn't even a registered Dem. It was simply the entire Republican lineup was a national embarrassment, and Trump was the biggest ass of the bunch.
So yes, when one candidate is as big of a jackass as they come, who very clearly intended to just fill his own pockets any way he could, versus someone competent, experienced, but rather unlikeable, it was a very clear choice. And I blame all you short sighted fucks for selfishly throwing this country to the lions because you refused to let things go and acknowledge that one candidate was clearly less bad than the other for the country.
And then Trump went beyond all expectations and really fucked this country up worse than anyone even imagined a single President could. We're going to be dealing with the fallout for generations, just from his SCOTUS appointments alone, let alone all the other damage he did.
And now he's back, running again. And despite all the damage he has already done, and has clearly indicated he will attempt to destroy our very democracy if he gets half a chance, you still can't swallow the bitter pill to just accept that now isn't the time to fuck around, and just support the obvious candidate even if he doesn't perfectly align to your preferences.
Grow the fuck up and learn to triage, or this country is going to bleed out while you focus on a fucking bunion instead of the gaping chest wound.
Again, you’re blaming the wings of your coalition for the loss of the election in 2016, when polling data shows how shit a full quarter of non-voters thought both candidates were.
Tens of millions of registered voters did not cast a ballot in the 2016 presidential election, and the share who cited a “dislike of the candidates or campaign issues” as their main reason for not participating reached a new high of 25%
Both candidates. If the DNC hadn’t forced Hillary, it’d have been a layup for even a meh candidate like Romney to scoop up undecided & unenthusiastic from those millions. 6.7 million votes went to third parties, in a 3:1 ratio Libertarian:Green. How many of those narrow electorate college losses could have been avoided by a candidate who wasn’t “not Trump” to a significant minority of the electorate:
Arizona lost by ~91k - 45:48%, 11 EC votes
Florida lost by <114k - 48:49%, 29 EC votes
Michigan lost by <11k - 47.2:47.5, 16 EC votes
Wisconsin lost by <23k - 46.5:47.2%, 10 EC votes
Pennsylvania lost by ~44k - 47.4:48.2%, 20 EC votes
All swing, or lean states, in a 304:227 EC result. I don’t like the Electoral College game because it’s undemocratic, but again this is something The Party has declared off limits. Just like alternative voting systems… why would the Democratic Party not want more democratic practices? 🤔
I have zero respect for people who
Why should anyone care about being respected by you of all people?
There is no 100% win on the table here
That's funny because when I look at Biden he looks like the perfect moderate candidate to me. Seems to me they got 100% of what they wanted.
This would be even better for the fascist regime than if he were healthy and vibrant. Caption some pictures of him saying he approves their message, trot him out for an occasional appearance at a big yearly event, and then they are free to do whatever they want with his “blessing.” They need Trump as a galvanizing symbol, nothing more.
And the establishment Democrats will intentionally elevate someone just as crazy or worse than Trump.
Glad someone else is talking about this, fascism is not going away.
Yep. Everyone who says this conversation isn't appropriate right now conveniently ignores the fact that they've refused to have these kinds of conversations for the past four years.
Biden needs to stop sending weapons to Israel.
Biden needs to promise to veto any attempts to block a rail strike in his next term.
Biden needs to revert his push for federal workers to return to office.
Biden needs to call off Yellen and Powell on their war against American workers.
He's a shit candidate for anybody who isn't retired or nearing retirement.
I'm starting to believe the worse guy isn't much worse after all. I wanted Biden to win because of promised immigration reform. He promised to halt the expansion of the wall. Give a pathway to all the people under DACA suffering in eternal immigration limbo.
What does he do instead? Continues the Trump administration's policies of using COVID loopholes to deny people at the border seeking asylum. Then he expands construction of the wall he promised to halt, and meanwhile does a couple photoshoots at the border with CBP officers.
Of course, absolutely squat was said about DACA or the millions of people who were filled with hope in 2020 after Biden won. Now we know the hope was a scam. It was all an illusion. A mirage.
My main reason I don't want Trump is because he is racist and xenophobic against Latin Americans. But if Biden is following in his footsteps virtually exactly...
Why should I give a shit who becomes president? I don't like Trump but there's no way I'm voting for Biden. I want him to lose. I want the Democrats to realize they can't just do this forever. I want them to change their strategy. If I vote for Biden and he wins, they learn nothing. They will continue lying and being hypocrites forever.
If Trump wins, you may never get a chance to vote for another president.
Trump is a narcissistic sociopath, to even try to compare the 2 on the level of evil they are capable of, is extremely naive. Also Trump is a traitor who is willing to sell out American interests to Putin.
You may be disappointed with Biden, but there is zero doubt he is the lesser of 2 evils by far. Especially if you are not a billionaire.
If Trump wins, you may never get a chance to vote for another president.
what is the difference between not being able to vote and being forced into voting for one candidate you hate?
Trump is a narcissistic sociopath, to even try to compare the 2 on the level of evil they are capable of, is extremely naive
i think you are the one being naive. trump cannot be the eternal boogeyman that justifies giving the democrats a blank check to do whatever they want. they are both equally shit. trump's a xenophobic racist who was aspirations to be another mussolini, biden actively supports genocide and does not give a single fuck about the people who put him in power.
there is no lesser evil here. just two different types of evil
You're right. Getting beat with a bat isn't really that different from getting punched in the gut. Thank you for all your incredible logic. I really needed it.
to follow your analogy, if you have to choose between two different forms of violence then you don't actually have bodily autonomy. you don't have a choice of "no violence".
the logic is there, even if you choose to dismiss it
Oh! I get it. So all we need to do is not be in the reality that we're in and we wouldn't have this choice. Thank you. I was getting anxious about the possibility that Trump would be our president again. We can have better choices if we change the reality in which we live.
Progressives in a nutshell. They will be upset with the status quo no matter what.
Even if Bernie was nominated and elected, progressives would have turned on him within a year, because he wouldn't have been able to get policy passed without major concessions, which would then alienate the progressive base for not being perfect.
"If you don't like our hellscape status quo then you're just looking for perfection" - out of touch democrat stans
So you support genocide, but you’re mad that progressives don’t?
Really? You believe that’s a good talking point?
Wow.
They will be upset with the status quo no matter what.
I'd love to hear about a time when the status quo was such that progressives shouldn't have been upset. Everything progressives and leftists care about is trending in the wrong direction and moderates are just like "you wouldn't be happy with anything".
Prove it.
You are correct. People expect big sweeping changes and are upset when it doesn’t. What people need to realise is that it’s like a rudder on a giant ship. If you keep voting left then you slowly move left. Which also means any time the right wins we stay on course or move further right.
People need to take a long term view.
If you keep voting left then you slowly move left.
We aren't slowly moving left.
Yes because only 4 years ago you voted in a right wing candidate. “I keep turning left then turning right, why aren’t I going left?!?!”
I voted for Biden in the 2020 general.
Yes but we need to convince more to get out and vote left.
Until you actually look at the rudder and realize it's not connected to the electoral system at all.
Even if Bernie was nominated and elected, progressives would have turned on him within a year, because he wouldn’t have been able to get policy passed without major concessions, which would then alienate the progressive base for not being perfect.
If you're being punched in the gut, it's not reassuring that the other option is going to use a bat instead.
But why clear the way for the worse guy to get to you?
Ya, Trump bad and all, but maybe it's Biden who should do more to get the anti-genocide vote. Isn't getting votes part of his job?
No, the president gets our votes automatically because he's got the job already and can beat the mean fascist man without tying! All we have to do is verbally abuse anyone criticizing Biden and we'll surely have him as president again and there'll be no problems come 2028 or anything!
Downvote them all you want, it’s a very poignant point that’s left at the wayside of defeating Trump right now. Joe wins in ‘24? The threat of a second Trump presidency is deferred, but he has fundamentally transformed American politics regardless
"Deferred" like he's likely to be back in 2028. Extremely unlikely he will be eligible by then, and even more unlikely he'll even be able to mentally/physically fit enough to campaign. He's already falling to pieces.
So? He’s the alt-right iconoclast currently yes, but the undercurrent was there in the McCain-Obama race, and Trump demonstrated the easy mode to power of populism to the RNC. Look at the current House shitgibbons, and how most of them have survived reelection, look at who just stepped down at the RNC to make way for a groomed successor.
Trump going to jail, being disqualified, or succumbing to himself wouldn’t unopen that box.
Yes, others will claw over each other to try to be the next idol. It doesn't mean anyone will succeed.
There is no 100% win on the table here. Absolutists like you need to accept that sometimes, you just need to take the win you can get, and work towards incremental improvement for the next time.
And no, communist revolution won't solve anything, nor is it even remotely possible.
Who mentioned communist revolution? Quit building strawmen, tf
You’re delusional if you think Trump is an aberration. He isn’t a hive mind leader, but he has shown the right how coded and open fascist language can be used by a demagogue to gain and wield power. That message has been well and roundly received on the right, where realpolitik never died.
I’m no absolutist, but the moderate left needs to stop pretending they care about progressive votes when the party’s selection process is entirely performative. Are we a coalition of unity, or subservient fringe? If I don’t matter enough to have a say, why do I matter enough to be bullied into compliance?
I mention the communist revolution thing because your points echo a lot of tankies here.
Vote progressive all you want. Volunteer for their campaigns. I'm all for it, as long as you're not giving the populists/fascists ammo (Ex: attack ads). But if you don't fall in line and vote blue for the presidential election, well, I have zero respect for people who can't prioritize and vote for the real candidate that they think is obviously better, in this political environment where we're teetering on the edge of facism.
If you vote independent or don't vote, the only statement you're making is that you'd rather destroy this country than vote
against tyrannyvote for someone that isn't your first choice, but leagues better than the other.Especially since we already got Trump in 2016 because people couldn't swallow their distaste and vote for Hilary.
Ah. There it is. Those other people who didn’t vote for my team after we faked a primary are bad. Not my party who forced on the electorate an Nth generation political insider, who was broadly unappealing, had a problematic history, and a hawkish foreign policy track record.
The refusal to accept responsibility for the 2016 election is why we’re having this conversation, again. People saw the naked corruption in the primaries, and got disenchanted. Not because ‘my guy didn’t win the primary and I’m butthurt’, but because the DNC cheated. Openly. Admitted as much in court when sued about it.
But then everyone is supposed to “fall in line” behind an unrepresentative candidate the central committee has chosen, right? And you’re calling other people tankies???
Yes. That's exactly it. I had no love for Clinton, or even the dems. I would have preferred Bernie, simply because I felt he would do better against Trump.
And at that point, it wasn't even my side vs their side. I wasn't even a registered Dem. It was simply the entire Republican lineup was a national embarrassment, and Trump was the biggest ass of the bunch.
So yes, when one candidate is as big of a jackass as they come, who very clearly intended to just fill his own pockets any way he could, versus someone competent, experienced, but rather unlikeable, it was a very clear choice. And I blame all you short sighted fucks for selfishly throwing this country to the lions because you refused to let things go and acknowledge that one candidate was clearly less bad than the other for the country.
And then Trump went beyond all expectations and really fucked this country up worse than anyone even imagined a single President could. We're going to be dealing with the fallout for generations, just from his SCOTUS appointments alone, let alone all the other damage he did.
And now he's back, running again. And despite all the damage he has already done, and has clearly indicated he will attempt to destroy our very democracy if he gets half a chance, you still can't swallow the bitter pill to just accept that now isn't the time to fuck around, and just support the obvious candidate even if he doesn't perfectly align to your preferences.
Grow the fuck up and learn to triage, or this country is going to bleed out while you focus on a fucking bunion instead of the gaping chest wound.
Again, you’re blaming the wings of your coalition for the loss of the election in 2016, when polling data shows how shit a full quarter of non-voters thought both candidates were.
Both candidates. If the DNC hadn’t forced Hillary, it’d have been a layup for even a meh candidate like Romney to scoop up undecided & unenthusiastic from those millions. 6.7 million votes went to third parties, in a 3:1 ratio Libertarian:Green. How many of those narrow electorate college losses could have been avoided by a candidate who wasn’t “not Trump” to a significant minority of the electorate:
All swing, or lean states, in a 304:227 EC result. I don’t like the Electoral College game because it’s undemocratic, but again this is something The Party has declared off limits. Just like alternative voting systems… why would the Democratic Party not want more democratic practices? 🤔
Why should anyone care about being respected by you of all people?
That's funny because when I look at Biden he looks like the perfect moderate candidate to me. Seems to me they got 100% of what they wanted.
This would be even better for the fascist regime than if he were healthy and vibrant. Caption some pictures of him saying he approves their message, trot him out for an occasional appearance at a big yearly event, and then they are free to do whatever they want with his “blessing.” They need Trump as a galvanizing symbol, nothing more.
And the establishment Democrats will intentionally elevate someone just as crazy or worse than Trump.
Glad someone else is talking about this, fascism is not going away.
Yep. Everyone who says this conversation isn't appropriate right now conveniently ignores the fact that they've refused to have these kinds of conversations for the past four years.
He's a shit candidate for anybody who isn't retired or nearing retirement.
I'm starting to believe the worse guy isn't much worse after all. I wanted Biden to win because of promised immigration reform. He promised to halt the expansion of the wall. Give a pathway to all the people under DACA suffering in eternal immigration limbo.
What does he do instead? Continues the Trump administration's policies of using COVID loopholes to deny people at the border seeking asylum. Then he expands construction of the wall he promised to halt, and meanwhile does a couple photoshoots at the border with CBP officers.
Of course, absolutely squat was said about DACA or the millions of people who were filled with hope in 2020 after Biden won. Now we know the hope was a scam. It was all an illusion. A mirage.
My main reason I don't want Trump is because he is racist and xenophobic against Latin Americans. But if Biden is following in his footsteps virtually exactly...
Why should I give a shit who becomes president? I don't like Trump but there's no way I'm voting for Biden. I want him to lose. I want the Democrats to realize they can't just do this forever. I want them to change their strategy. If I vote for Biden and he wins, they learn nothing. They will continue lying and being hypocrites forever.
If Trump wins, you may never get a chance to vote for another president.
Trump is a narcissistic sociopath, to even try to compare the 2 on the level of evil they are capable of, is extremely naive. Also Trump is a traitor who is willing to sell out American interests to Putin.
You may be disappointed with Biden, but there is zero doubt he is the lesser of 2 evils by far. Especially if you are not a billionaire.
what is the difference between not being able to vote and being forced into voting for one candidate you hate?
i think you are the one being naive. trump cannot be the eternal boogeyman that justifies giving the democrats a blank check to do whatever they want. they are both equally shit. trump's a xenophobic racist who was aspirations to be another mussolini, biden actively supports genocide and does not give a single fuck about the people who put him in power.
there is no lesser evil here. just two different types of evil
You're right. Getting beat with a bat isn't really that different from getting punched in the gut. Thank you for all your incredible logic. I really needed it.
to follow your analogy, if you have to choose between two different forms of violence then you don't actually have bodily autonomy. you don't have a choice of "no violence".
the logic is there, even if you choose to dismiss it
Oh! I get it. So all we need to do is not be in the reality that we're in and we wouldn't have this choice. Thank you. I was getting anxious about the possibility that Trump would be our president again. We can have better choices if we change the reality in which we live.
Progressives in a nutshell. They will be upset with the status quo no matter what.
Even if Bernie was nominated and elected, progressives would have turned on him within a year, because he wouldn't have been able to get policy passed without major concessions, which would then alienate the progressive base for not being perfect.
"If you don't like our hellscape status quo then you're just looking for perfection" - out of touch democrat stans
So you support genocide, but you’re mad that progressives don’t?
Really? You believe that’s a good talking point?
Wow.
I'd love to hear about a time when the status quo was such that progressives shouldn't have been upset. Everything progressives and leftists care about is trending in the wrong direction and moderates are just like "you wouldn't be happy with anything".
Prove it.
You are correct. People expect big sweeping changes and are upset when it doesn’t. What people need to realise is that it’s like a rudder on a giant ship. If you keep voting left then you slowly move left. Which also means any time the right wins we stay on course or move further right.
People need to take a long term view.
We aren't slowly moving left.
Yes because only 4 years ago you voted in a right wing candidate. “I keep turning left then turning right, why aren’t I going left?!?!”
I voted for Biden in the 2020 general.
Yes but we need to convince more to get out and vote left.
Until you actually look at the rudder and realize it's not connected to the electoral system at all.
I'm gonna borrow this, very succinct.