The right doesn't have a problem with people refusing to vote for right-wing politicians because they want to punish them for not being right-wing enough.
Meanwhile the far-left goes on and on about how voting is pointless and you're a lib if you think voting can effect change, and then expect you to be insulted by that term
I think the far left is too perfectionist. They want some sort of mythical candidate that will check all the boxes and somehow still be electable in a general election, but that person isn’t coming. Meanwhile, the Right usually rallies the wagon around whichever sad sack-of-shit they’ve found. You’re not going to get who you want every time and you’re not going to get the change you want everytime. It’s about setting the conditions for that change to come that’s important, otherwise you’re just handing the initiative to the Right to make the change that they want.
Exactly. It's a matter of complaining that the train is not moving fast enough so why bother putting more coal into the engine.
Well said.
Here you go. Instead of complaining yourself, you can get informed...
This is not something you watch to "get informed". It is a video opinion essay, and if your primary source of information is opinion videos, that's deeply concerning. Do not tell people to "get informed" and then link a video where someone just talks about their opinion.
Nonetheless, I've watched this video and I agree with most of what it says. What I don't agree with is that participating in the current electoral system is fruitless. There are such things as primary elections. Right-wing voters have no problem exercising their political will in primary elections, pushing their party further right.
I do not profess that voting Democratic is the ultimate solution to our problems. In fact, my views are very similar to those professed in that video. But what I am saying is that people who tell others that "liberalism won't solve anything" or that merely voting in the general election isn't the solution without in the same breath describing what should be done instead are far more damaging than someone who does just vote in a general election and does nothing else.
I think centrists consider any criticism to be perfectionism and expect perfect lockstep behind the candidates that centrists consider perfect already.
what do you mean the far left? the American Solidarity Party? ANTIFA?
One thing that helped me is realizing that Americans are mostly stupid, and they have more votes than me, so they're gonna make stupid decisions and there's nothing I can do about it.
Accepting the reality of America's shithole nature helped me stop thinking we could be better or, as you say, a "perfectionist."
Not wanting your candidate to arm a genocide is perfectionist?
It's not productive to label everyone who thinks the masses should be empowered as "far left". Unless you believe only the betters of humanity can make decisions and anyone getting the shaft should only grin and bare it.
Not accepting that the opposition will do more than arm the genocide is the problem here. On top of ALL the other shit he has already done, and promises to do.
You’ll risk losing American democracy over a single issue that is going to be FAR worse under the opposition.
Everthing said that you’re responding to is 100% true of the agenda you’ve hitched your wagon to. It’s manufactured outrage. And it’s childish.
Joe Biden can't claim to care about American Democracy while ignoring a majority of his voters on core issues.
I get that you have your propaganda you need to shill, but as everyone has already told you- Trump will do the same, and much worse additionally. You just refuse to acknowledge this because it’s not part of your programming.
And you’re not the majority of his voters.
If you have all the information, educate me. I have a hard time understanding people who don't dispute their is a genocide in Gaza, yet they still vote shame anti genocide voters.
Do you believe Biden and Israel is committing a full on genocide in Gaza but trump will start genocides in other places so it's better to vote Biden?
Or do you believe what Biden and Israel are doing is relatively minor and would be much worse under a trump presidency?
I believe Israel is- absolutely. However, I believe… no, I KNOW- that they’d be doing it without Biden being involved in any way. In fact, they’re so stockpiled that they’re barely using what Biden is sending.
And directly accusing Biden of genocide is about as ignorant as one can be on the subject. He has no authority to commit genocide in a country he’s not at war with, or has any ability to dictate such actions as a proxy on behalf of another country. Your manufactured outrage and goalpost moving is not something that the majority of people stand behind.
Again- The atrocities carried out by Israel is not something that wouldn’t be happening if America had nothing to do with it. But I’m sure you know this already- it just stands in the way of your agenda.
OK, just to clarify, you believe Biden has no leavage to stop Israel and they aren't reliant on the tens of billions in weapons aid or the diplomatic help we gift them?
It’s pretty well known and documented fact. It’s not a belief. It’s just…. Reality.
Biden doesn’t call the shots in Israel. I’m not sure if anyone told you, but he’s the president of the United States ONLY.
I know you’ve been told this isn’t the case, and that cognitive dissonance will stand in the way of you accepting this, but reality doesn’t really care how you feel about it.
I don't necessarily disagree with that. I would hope Biden has leverage, Israel is a client state after all. But it's also true that the Israeli government is fiercely independent as you said earlier.
If the US weapon shipements don't matter to Israel, Biden should hold shipments while he investigates crimes of genocide. He should also withhold diplomatic cover. That will help Biden at home, he can better show he's trying to stop the genocide. And it may even get the far RW government ruling over Israel voted out of office. Biden is the best candidate in 2024, but I believe he can only win if he proves he's doing everything to help the ME stay out of war. And what he has been doing isn't enough IMO.
Fair enough. But my original point is that people are so committed to this single issue to push Biden to do the right thing that they’re withholding their vote and suggesting others do so- while wholeheartedly acknowledging that it would be exponentially worse under Trump.
This is why so many people think they’re right-wing propaganda trolls. Because with what we know about what Trump has done, and promises to do- how could anyone suggest not voting as an option?
I think the difference between us, you'd rather blame voters and I'd rather blame leaders. I used to blame voters as well until I realized very online people, who engage in politics, live in a different reality from average voters. And very online people are a tiny minority of voters. Most voters hate spending time learning about politics. If you don't believe me, do phone banking, talk to normal voters.
So when I'm say things like Joe Biden is risking this election being complicit with genocide, I'm not predicting how very online people are going to vote. I'm saying average voters seeing a horrible genocide, seeing the world on fire, are going to be less likely to vote for the one currently in the oval office.
Yup, you're far left perfectionist. I don't make the rules...
I vote in every election, often over 6 in a year. I live in a red state so that means I'm voting for a candidate that barely agrees with me. How does that qualify for far left perfectionist?
The right doesn't have a problem with people refusing to vote for right-wing politicians because they want to punish them for not being right-wing enough.
Meanwhile the far-left goes on and on about how voting is pointless and you're a lib if you think voting can effect change, and then expect you to be insulted by that term
I think the far left is too perfectionist. They want some sort of mythical candidate that will check all the boxes and somehow still be electable in a general election, but that person isn’t coming. Meanwhile, the Right usually rallies the wagon around whichever sad sack-of-shit they’ve found. You’re not going to get who you want every time and you’re not going to get the change you want everytime. It’s about setting the conditions for that change to come that’s important, otherwise you’re just handing the initiative to the Right to make the change that they want.
Exactly. It's a matter of complaining that the train is not moving fast enough so why bother putting more coal into the engine.
Well said.
Here you go. Instead of complaining yourself, you can get informed...
https://youtu.be/lb8bBWnHflk
This is not something you watch to "get informed". It is a video opinion essay, and if your primary source of information is opinion videos, that's deeply concerning. Do not tell people to "get informed" and then link a video where someone just talks about their opinion.
Nonetheless, I've watched this video and I agree with most of what it says. What I don't agree with is that participating in the current electoral system is fruitless. There are such things as primary elections. Right-wing voters have no problem exercising their political will in primary elections, pushing their party further right.
I do not profess that voting Democratic is the ultimate solution to our problems. In fact, my views are very similar to those professed in that video. But what I am saying is that people who tell others that "liberalism won't solve anything" or that merely voting in the general election isn't the solution without in the same breath describing what should be done instead are far more damaging than someone who does just vote in a general election and does nothing else.
In my home state of Oregon, the way that individual citizens can improve our political system is by circulating, signing, and promoting ballot measures, including a measure to replace first-past-the-post voting with ranked-choice voting, which will appear on this year's ballot as a referendum. Is this not a valuable activity?
I think centrists consider any criticism to be perfectionism and expect perfect lockstep behind the candidates that centrists consider perfect already.
what do you mean the far left? the American Solidarity Party? ANTIFA?
One thing that helped me is realizing that Americans are mostly stupid, and they have more votes than me, so they're gonna make stupid decisions and there's nothing I can do about it.
Accepting the reality of America's shithole nature helped me stop thinking we could be better or, as you say, a "perfectionist."
Not wanting your candidate to arm a genocide is perfectionist?
It's not productive to label everyone who thinks the masses should be empowered as "far left". Unless you believe only the betters of humanity can make decisions and anyone getting the shaft should only grin and bare it.
Not accepting that the opposition will do more than arm the genocide is the problem here. On top of ALL the other shit he has already done, and promises to do.
You’ll risk losing American democracy over a single issue that is going to be FAR worse under the opposition.
Everthing said that you’re responding to is 100% true of the agenda you’ve hitched your wagon to. It’s manufactured outrage. And it’s childish.
Joe Biden can't claim to care about American Democracy while ignoring a majority of his voters on core issues.
I get that you have your propaganda you need to shill, but as everyone has already told you- Trump will do the same, and much worse additionally. You just refuse to acknowledge this because it’s not part of your programming.
And you’re not the majority of his voters.
If you have all the information, educate me. I have a hard time understanding people who don't dispute their is a genocide in Gaza, yet they still vote shame anti genocide voters.
Do you believe Biden and Israel is committing a full on genocide in Gaza but trump will start genocides in other places so it's better to vote Biden?
Or do you believe what Biden and Israel are doing is relatively minor and would be much worse under a trump presidency?
I believe Israel is- absolutely. However, I believe… no, I KNOW- that they’d be doing it without Biden being involved in any way. In fact, they’re so stockpiled that they’re barely using what Biden is sending.
And directly accusing Biden of genocide is about as ignorant as one can be on the subject. He has no authority to commit genocide in a country he’s not at war with, or has any ability to dictate such actions as a proxy on behalf of another country. Your manufactured outrage and goalpost moving is not something that the majority of people stand behind.
Again- The atrocities carried out by Israel is not something that wouldn’t be happening if America had nothing to do with it. But I’m sure you know this already- it just stands in the way of your agenda.
OK, just to clarify, you believe Biden has no leavage to stop Israel and they aren't reliant on the tens of billions in weapons aid or the diplomatic help we gift them?
It’s pretty well known and documented fact. It’s not a belief. It’s just…. Reality.
Biden doesn’t call the shots in Israel. I’m not sure if anyone told you, but he’s the president of the United States ONLY.
I know you’ve been told this isn’t the case, and that cognitive dissonance will stand in the way of you accepting this, but reality doesn’t really care how you feel about it.
I don't necessarily disagree with that. I would hope Biden has leverage, Israel is a client state after all. But it's also true that the Israeli government is fiercely independent as you said earlier.
If the US weapon shipements don't matter to Israel, Biden should hold shipments while he investigates crimes of genocide. He should also withhold diplomatic cover. That will help Biden at home, he can better show he's trying to stop the genocide. And it may even get the far RW government ruling over Israel voted out of office. Biden is the best candidate in 2024, but I believe he can only win if he proves he's doing everything to help the ME stay out of war. And what he has been doing isn't enough IMO.
Fair enough. But my original point is that people are so committed to this single issue to push Biden to do the right thing that they’re withholding their vote and suggesting others do so- while wholeheartedly acknowledging that it would be exponentially worse under Trump.
This is why so many people think they’re right-wing propaganda trolls. Because with what we know about what Trump has done, and promises to do- how could anyone suggest not voting as an option?
I think the difference between us, you'd rather blame voters and I'd rather blame leaders. I used to blame voters as well until I realized very online people, who engage in politics, live in a different reality from average voters. And very online people are a tiny minority of voters. Most voters hate spending time learning about politics. If you don't believe me, do phone banking, talk to normal voters.
So when I'm say things like Joe Biden is risking this election being complicit with genocide, I'm not predicting how very online people are going to vote. I'm saying average voters seeing a horrible genocide, seeing the world on fire, are going to be less likely to vote for the one currently in the oval office.
Yup, you're far left perfectionist. I don't make the rules...
I vote in every election, often over 6 in a year. I live in a red state so that means I'm voting for a candidate that barely agrees with me. How does that qualify for far left perfectionist?
The right has been cleaning house in primaries getting rid of 'RINO's in favor of first the tea partiers and now MAGA for years.
This article is from over five years ago: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/11/12/the-demise-of-the-moderate-republican
The local spending is exactly the cleaning house that you're talking about.
They're just going to keep going further and further right.
Thanks for sharing that. It was terrible and depressing read, 5½ years in the future.