If Biden stepped down and Warren was on the ballot again I would definitely vote in this upcoming election.
You are the problem.
nope, they're right. I'd vote for Warren and I'd drop my prohibition against voting blue in any race. I don't love warren, but I think she has virtues, I'd be voting for something, and I could at least half hope that the things I'm voting against wouldn't happen if she won. plus she stands a much better chance of actually fucking winning; non-trumpers dont hate her.
I will not under any condition vote biden, and if the blues run him, a D by your name gets you the same treatment as an R in my book.
dangling us over a fascist cliff is not endearing behavior. I will not vote for a terrorist.
You're still the problem even if you pretend to be above it. Trying to prop up your argument with the morality of not choosing the lesser evil does nothing but make you feel better about yourself in "refusing to compromise your principals".
This is reality and the reality is we live in a two party system. By not voting for one you are actively supporting the other.
So rather than three paragraphs of idealistic bullshit you should just truncate it down to:
"I support Trump" -melpomenesclevage
I'm not refusing to compromise.warren would be a compromise.
biden is making trump more of a threat to get himself elected. that's not okay. if he doesn't step down, he's okay with that wager, and I don't want him near power.
fascist edging is irresponsible and not something I'll vote for. especially if it doesn't even stop the genocides!
Is voting Warren for president an option? Quit being a jackass.
its not.because of Joe biden.
again, I don't even like biden. don't worry, I'll stay politically engaged; I just won't be wasting my time at a voting booth.
Cool. So what you're saying is you are perfectly ok with Trump being president, just so long as you don't have to vote for Biden. That is the reality we are staring down the barrel of. You might not like having to vote for him, but if there are not enough votes under the Biden column then we will have a second term of Donald Trump. Keep what-ifing and patting yourself on the back.
I'm saying biden is threatening me with a trump presidency by not stepping down. I'm not okay with that.
I thought this was a jokefour years ago,but you people really are just as bad.
when your only point of favor is 'they're worse' you can't really avoid the comparison.
You. Do. Not. Get. To. Choose. Who. Runs. For. President.
Rather than accepting that reality, you're choosing to sit and watch as a Trump presidency happens and say "Whelp. My hands are tied" rather than do your part in voting in the far superior option.
Don't bother. They want fascism, they're just too cowardly to admit it.
There was a primary. She didn't run.
Are you talking about 2024? Because no there wasn't. No party in the US holds more than a pro forma vote for presidential nominee if they have an incumbent running. Primaries in such years are specifically for lower offices. A President hasn't been primaried in the US since Johnson declined to run again after getting beat horribly in polling and the New Hampshire primary.
Oh, got em on the technicality!
The OP you're replying to was clearly highlighting that Warren isn't a candidate for President, but because you caught that it was a lack of nomination rather than a lack of primary campaign that totally invalidates their point!
Oh did I catch you guys operating in bad faith? Shock.
because the party would take it as an insult, and her career would be over.
Sounds like you've made a compelling argument as to why what you're demanding isn't a real option, so you'll need a better excuse as to why you're refusing the only rational option you have.
he's why it wouldn't be an option. the rational option is ignoring your bullshit elections in favor of direct action, the emotional reaction is voting for the red team out of spite.
You’re brainwashed. The system is the problem. They want us peasants playing the imaginary game fighting with each other instead of unifying and making real change. You’re a pawn.
Nice not-fighting there, idiot.
Ad hominem. I don’t participate in fear based politics or hate based discussion. Try again.
Ad hominem is when you try to attack someone's ideas by attacking their character instead. I'm not doing that. I'm just calling you an idiot.
That’s not the definition but using ignorance to fit your narrative just like a politician. Nice.
They actually made no argument. Just pointless attacking so no logic argument to be a fallacy. Somehow that’s better? Good on them.
If they had made an argument and qualified it with “because you’re an idiot”, that would still be as hominem. Does not have to specifically be about somebody’s character.
Unifying and making real change means coming together and voting against the fascist that's going to make everything worse.
Feeling righteous about not doing the one thing that can actually help is immature and stupid.
The Democrats aren't making any real change though. They just patch things up for the next Republican to ratchet us further to the right. If we want change we're going to need to change the democratic party first.
And that happens by voting in local elections
Sure. Let me know when Biden is running for my local congressional seat so I can not vote for him there too.
You really are missing the point. Local elections reach up into higher elections. Vote for more liberal mayors, more liberal DAs, more liberal Congresspeople, and more liberal senators. The more liberal they move, the more liberal the overall party becomes.
I'm really not. You're just assuming things.
Ad hominem. I don’t participate in fear based politics or hate based discussion. Try again.
If you're not either participating in politics by voting, running for office or campaigning; or actively attempting to overthrow the government, then you are accepting whatever government we have and whatever government gets voted in.
There's nothing morally wrong in voting for the less-bad of available. options now, while still working toward changes that give us better choices in the future. If nothing else, if you really cared about how this country and world runs, you would at least be voting for whoever you think will give you even a SLIGHTLY better chance of allowing or enabling the change you want to see.
The absolute least useful thing you could possibly do is throw up your hands and give up and not participate. As a matter of fact, that's exactly what extremes on both ends of the political spectrum want you to do. The fewer people who participate, the easier it is for them to get away with all the money and power.
It’s the opposite. They need your participation to keep the machine churning. The more you care about red vs blue the more money they make and the longer the system prospers with little real change. Another 4 years of Trump is what the Democratic Party needs to get off their asses (no pun intended) and actually give us somebody who’s gonna make real changes.
It’s all business, you’re the consumer and our lives are the currency. If you’re not buying what they’re selling, they’re gonna need to give you what you want.
So close but still framing it as "Blue needs to save us so we need to punish them with Red", which is still red vs blue thinking
In the future scenario you are referring to Trump being elected is not a punishment but a consequence of an indirect action. You incorrectly assume I’m trying to punish Democrats. I don’t care what they do, they’re just not getting my vote until they’re doing what I want them to do. It’s just business to them and should be treated as such. They don’t truly care about you.
You call it consequence, I call it punishment. What's the difference here?
Well then it’s an indirect punishment, but I’m not doing it to directly punish them. You just see it as a punishment.
They need your participation to keep the machine churning.
You are 100% incorrect about this. The system will continue regardless of your participation. Sitting on the sidelines and pouting about the rules being bad does nothing but make you look like a child.
I don’t need to explain to you how change happens, but it’s not only continuing to play their games. Ever heard of a boycott?…
You're a fucking moron.
Vote against trump then? Unless you never want to vote again I guess
I only vote for, not against
Unfortunately that's not how our system currently works. The least you can do is undo one Nazi's vote
I’ll vote for any candidate who wants to change the voting system. RCV or some other alternative voting method. Changing the electoral college vote. I’ll vote for that. Not about fear-based voting. Good luck in this upcoming election!
Trump's first term resulted in abortion bans that are actively making women die. Next targets on the list will be banning birth control and GAHT. These will also cause people to die. That's not to mention how much worse Trump's positions are on Israel/Palestine and Russia/Ukraine. Is it worth it to you to stand by and watch innocent, marginalized people die in the name of your personal political ideals? Elections are about way more than the idiosyncrasies of the political process. Literal human lives are on the line.
I'm pretty sure they only care about their performative solipsism.
I’m pretty sure you only care about the political circlejerk you subscribe to. Cum-stained high fives all around with your cronies. Demand real change. Don’t play into fear politics.
Touché. Hit a nerve, I guess.
Neither candidate cares about people’s lives. Biden could have expanded the court but let Roe/Wade happen. His foreign policy is going to put us in the middle of a war. No different than Trump. We could have already had RCV or some other voting system that allows us to vote for who we actually want instead of fear based voting. Biden could have stepped down and given people a candidate they wanted to vote for. Anything that happens is theirs and your own faults for letting them spin you in hamster balls or decades and scaring you into demanding change. They’ve forced your hands every time and now you’re crippled by the system. Demand change. Don’t play the game. I don’t subscribe to fear politics. Good luck.
You think first past the post voting is something that gets changed in a presidential election? Really?
No. I’ll vote for somebody who wants to change it while in office. Surprised you would think otherwise…
Well now I'm even more confused, no you don't think a president's going to be the one to change first past the post, but yet you want to vote for someone who will? So you're just straight up saying you're never going to vote? This makes no sense.
When you stop letting anything excuse your apathy, maybe you'll be able to start understanding that to change first past the post you have to work at the local levels first. Which I'm sure you don't do because apathetic people don't get involved in local politics passionately.
Didn't you hear? Not participating in part of a system absolves you of any moral responsibility for anything! Ever!
It’s a constitutional issue if you knew anything. It can happen federally like Roe/Wade or it can be at the state level like many states have done. President can push to make it happen while in office. Not during this current election year.
It's absolutely not a constitutional issue. Nowhere in the Constitution anywhere is first pass the post mentioned. And even if it were a constitutional issue that wouldn't be something the president deals with that would be a Congressional issue or more accurately a state issue.
President can appoint judges and can bring attention to issues so people can vote on it. Same thing with partially why Roe/Wade was overturned. Trump packed the court with conservatives. RCV can be done at the state level, but reforming the electoral college voting system can absolutely be spearheaded by a president.
Very clearly said first pass the post which you've completely abandoned even though you're the one that brought it up I see. Still pointless though because a change of the Constitution is not done by a Judiciary it's done by legislators at the national and at the state level. If you truly believe the electoral college should be abolished all the more reason you have to get involved at the local level at the state level at the county level even. Which you won't do.
Also for someone who's worried about the president's ability to point judges, you seem to be ignoring the problem with allowing a fascist to be in the office.
You’re making some incorrect assumptions about me. A true first past the post plurality vote is fine. I have no problem with that. My problem is that the system we have restricts us to the red blue duopoly. I actively participate in local and state politics, just don’t have any interest in playing the presidential game at the moment.
There will always be a “Trump” in power. I voted in the 2016 election and Trump still happened. You gotta meet them where they’re at when that happens and play some hardball. They’re gonna move the needle a lot more so you gotta do a lot of work to bring that back when you have the chance.
I’m just sharing what I’m doing. You can do whatever you want. You don’t need to try and convince me otherwise. Who are you planning on voting for?
Vote for not criminalizing human being? Vote for not giving tax breaks to the wealthy?
You can't vote for those things, it's not one of the choices.
Ah, must be morning in Russia. The “both parties same” shills are out
Two flavours of dying neolibs, a system designed to keep everyone else out, it's good cop bad cop washington consensus edition, don't like demoxracy you russian traitor ?
You can vote based on fear. I’ll sit this one out until there’s a candidate I actually want to lead our country.
It sounds like you're looking at this like you're choosing someone to marry. I'll wait for the one. I don't want to settle. Etc... but you may never, ever get a candidate you like. Instead, I suggest you think of it like picking a city bus. Is this one going where I want to go? Probably not but it's closer. And unfortunately, in this metaphor, you have to get on a bus anyway. "Sitting this one out" just means getting on someone else's bus.
It's okay, when the Nazis come, they'll realize that he is a purist and will not do anything bad to him.
If Biden stepped down and Warren was on the ballot again I would definitely vote in this upcoming election.
You are the problem.
nope, they're right. I'd vote for Warren and I'd drop my prohibition against voting blue in any race. I don't love warren, but I think she has virtues, I'd be voting for something, and I could at least half hope that the things I'm voting against wouldn't happen if she won. plus she stands a much better chance of actually fucking winning; non-trumpers dont hate her.
I will not under any condition vote biden, and if the blues run him, a D by your name gets you the same treatment as an R in my book.
dangling us over a fascist cliff is not endearing behavior. I will not vote for a terrorist.
You're still the problem even if you pretend to be above it. Trying to prop up your argument with the morality of not choosing the lesser evil does nothing but make you feel better about yourself in "refusing to compromise your principals". This is reality and the reality is we live in a two party system. By not voting for one you are actively supporting the other.
So rather than three paragraphs of idealistic bullshit you should just truncate it down to:
"I support Trump" -melpomenesclevage
I'm not refusing to compromise.warren would be a compromise.
biden is making trump more of a threat to get himself elected. that's not okay. if he doesn't step down, he's okay with that wager, and I don't want him near power.
fascist edging is irresponsible and not something I'll vote for. especially if it doesn't even stop the genocides!
Is voting Warren for president an option? Quit being a jackass.
its not.because of Joe biden.
again, I don't even like biden. don't worry, I'll stay politically engaged; I just won't be wasting my time at a voting booth.
Cool. So what you're saying is you are perfectly ok with Trump being president, just so long as you don't have to vote for Biden. That is the reality we are staring down the barrel of. You might not like having to vote for him, but if there are not enough votes under the Biden column then we will have a second term of Donald Trump. Keep what-ifing and patting yourself on the back.
I'm saying biden is threatening me with a trump presidency by not stepping down. I'm not okay with that.
I thought this was a jokefour years ago,but you people really are just as bad.
when your only point of favor is 'they're worse' you can't really avoid the comparison.
You. Do. Not. Get. To. Choose. Who. Runs. For. President.
Rather than accepting that reality, you're choosing to sit and watch as a Trump presidency happens and say "Whelp. My hands are tied" rather than do your part in voting in the far superior option.
Don't bother. They want fascism, they're just too cowardly to admit it.
There was a primary. She didn't run.
Are you talking about 2024? Because no there wasn't. No party in the US holds more than a pro forma vote for presidential nominee if they have an incumbent running. Primaries in such years are specifically for lower offices. A President hasn't been primaried in the US since Johnson declined to run again after getting beat horribly in polling and the New Hampshire primary.
Oh, got em on the technicality!
The OP you're replying to was clearly highlighting that Warren isn't a candidate for President, but because you caught that it was a lack of nomination rather than a lack of primary campaign that totally invalidates their point!
Oh did I catch you guys operating in bad faith? Shock.
because the party would take it as an insult, and her career would be over.
Sounds like you've made a compelling argument as to why what you're demanding isn't a real option, so you'll need a better excuse as to why you're refusing the only rational option you have.
he's why it wouldn't be an option. the rational option is ignoring your bullshit elections in favor of direct action, the emotional reaction is voting for the red team out of spite.
You’re brainwashed. The system is the problem. They want us peasants playing the imaginary game fighting with each other instead of unifying and making real change. You’re a pawn.
Nice not-fighting there, idiot.
Ad hominem. I don’t participate in fear based politics or hate based discussion. Try again.
Ad hominem is when you try to attack someone's ideas by attacking their character instead. I'm not doing that. I'm just calling you an idiot.
That’s not the definition but using ignorance to fit your narrative just like a politician. Nice.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ad%20hominem
They actually made no argument. Just pointless attacking so no logic argument to be a fallacy. Somehow that’s better? Good on them.
If they had made an argument and qualified it with “because you’re an idiot”, that would still be as hominem. Does not have to specifically be about somebody’s character.
Unifying and making real change means coming together and voting against the fascist that's going to make everything worse.
Feeling righteous about not doing the one thing that can actually help is immature and stupid.
The Democrats aren't making any real change though. They just patch things up for the next Republican to ratchet us further to the right. If we want change we're going to need to change the democratic party first.
And that happens by voting in local elections
Sure. Let me know when Biden is running for my local congressional seat so I can not vote for him there too.
You really are missing the point. Local elections reach up into higher elections. Vote for more liberal mayors, more liberal DAs, more liberal Congresspeople, and more liberal senators. The more liberal they move, the more liberal the overall party becomes.
I'm really not. You're just assuming things.
Ad hominem. I don’t participate in fear based politics or hate based discussion. Try again.
If you're not either participating in politics by voting, running for office or campaigning; or actively attempting to overthrow the government, then you are accepting whatever government we have and whatever government gets voted in.
There's nothing morally wrong in voting for the less-bad of available. options now, while still working toward changes that give us better choices in the future. If nothing else, if you really cared about how this country and world runs, you would at least be voting for whoever you think will give you even a SLIGHTLY better chance of allowing or enabling the change you want to see.
The absolute least useful thing you could possibly do is throw up your hands and give up and not participate. As a matter of fact, that's exactly what extremes on both ends of the political spectrum want you to do. The fewer people who participate, the easier it is for them to get away with all the money and power.
It’s the opposite. They need your participation to keep the machine churning. The more you care about red vs blue the more money they make and the longer the system prospers with little real change. Another 4 years of Trump is what the Democratic Party needs to get off their asses (no pun intended) and actually give us somebody who’s gonna make real changes.
It’s all business, you’re the consumer and our lives are the currency. If you’re not buying what they’re selling, they’re gonna need to give you what you want.
So close but still framing it as "Blue needs to save us so we need to punish them with Red", which is still red vs blue thinking
In the future scenario you are referring to Trump being elected is not a punishment but a consequence of an indirect action. You incorrectly assume I’m trying to punish Democrats. I don’t care what they do, they’re just not getting my vote until they’re doing what I want them to do. It’s just business to them and should be treated as such. They don’t truly care about you.
You call it consequence, I call it punishment. What's the difference here?
Well then it’s an indirect punishment, but I’m not doing it to directly punish them. You just see it as a punishment.
You are 100% incorrect about this. The system will continue regardless of your participation. Sitting on the sidelines and pouting about the rules being bad does nothing but make you look like a child.
I don’t need to explain to you how change happens, but it’s not only continuing to play their games. Ever heard of a boycott?…
You're a fucking moron.
Vote against trump then? Unless you never want to vote again I guess
I only vote for, not against
Unfortunately that's not how our system currently works. The least you can do is undo one Nazi's vote
I’ll vote for any candidate who wants to change the voting system. RCV or some other alternative voting method. Changing the electoral college vote. I’ll vote for that. Not about fear-based voting. Good luck in this upcoming election!
Trump's first term resulted in abortion bans that are actively making women die. Next targets on the list will be banning birth control and GAHT. These will also cause people to die. That's not to mention how much worse Trump's positions are on Israel/Palestine and Russia/Ukraine. Is it worth it to you to stand by and watch innocent, marginalized people die in the name of your personal political ideals? Elections are about way more than the idiosyncrasies of the political process. Literal human lives are on the line.
I'm pretty sure they only care about their performative solipsism.
I’m pretty sure you only care about the political circlejerk you subscribe to. Cum-stained high fives all around with your cronies. Demand real change. Don’t play into fear politics.
Touché. Hit a nerve, I guess.
Neither candidate cares about people’s lives. Biden could have expanded the court but let Roe/Wade happen. His foreign policy is going to put us in the middle of a war. No different than Trump. We could have already had RCV or some other voting system that allows us to vote for who we actually want instead of fear based voting. Biden could have stepped down and given people a candidate they wanted to vote for. Anything that happens is theirs and your own faults for letting them spin you in hamster balls or decades and scaring you into demanding change. They’ve forced your hands every time and now you’re crippled by the system. Demand change. Don’t play the game. I don’t subscribe to fear politics. Good luck.
You think first past the post voting is something that gets changed in a presidential election? Really?
No. I’ll vote for somebody who wants to change it while in office. Surprised you would think otherwise…
Well now I'm even more confused, no you don't think a president's going to be the one to change first past the post, but yet you want to vote for someone who will? So you're just straight up saying you're never going to vote? This makes no sense.
When you stop letting anything excuse your apathy, maybe you'll be able to start understanding that to change first past the post you have to work at the local levels first. Which I'm sure you don't do because apathetic people don't get involved in local politics passionately.
Didn't you hear? Not participating in part of a system absolves you of any moral responsibility for anything! Ever!
It’s a constitutional issue if you knew anything. It can happen federally like Roe/Wade or it can be at the state level like many states have done. President can push to make it happen while in office. Not during this current election year.
It's absolutely not a constitutional issue. Nowhere in the Constitution anywhere is first pass the post mentioned. And even if it were a constitutional issue that wouldn't be something the president deals with that would be a Congressional issue or more accurately a state issue.
Electoral college in constitution
President can appoint judges and can bring attention to issues so people can vote on it. Same thing with partially why Roe/Wade was overturned. Trump packed the court with conservatives. RCV can be done at the state level, but reforming the electoral college voting system can absolutely be spearheaded by a president.
Very clearly said first pass the post which you've completely abandoned even though you're the one that brought it up I see. Still pointless though because a change of the Constitution is not done by a Judiciary it's done by legislators at the national and at the state level. If you truly believe the electoral college should be abolished all the more reason you have to get involved at the local level at the state level at the county level even. Which you won't do.
Also for someone who's worried about the president's ability to point judges, you seem to be ignoring the problem with allowing a fascist to be in the office.
You’re making some incorrect assumptions about me. A true first past the post plurality vote is fine. I have no problem with that. My problem is that the system we have restricts us to the red blue duopoly. I actively participate in local and state politics, just don’t have any interest in playing the presidential game at the moment.
There will always be a “Trump” in power. I voted in the 2016 election and Trump still happened. You gotta meet them where they’re at when that happens and play some hardball. They’re gonna move the needle a lot more so you gotta do a lot of work to bring that back when you have the chance.
I’m just sharing what I’m doing. You can do whatever you want. You don’t need to try and convince me otherwise. Who are you planning on voting for?
We tried that in Csnada, once they got elected, they didn't want to mess with the system that got them elected
Yeah most politicians are liars
Cheers to that!
Somebody with a mind of their own! Nice to meet you!
Vote for not criminalizing human being? Vote for not giving tax breaks to the wealthy?
You can't vote for those things, it's not one of the choices.
Ah, must be morning in Russia. The “both parties same” shills are out
Two flavours of dying neolibs, a system designed to keep everyone else out, it's good cop bad cop washington consensus edition, don't like demoxracy you russian traitor ?
You can vote based on fear. I’ll sit this one out until there’s a candidate I actually want to lead our country.
It sounds like you're looking at this like you're choosing someone to marry. I'll wait for the one. I don't want to settle. Etc... but you may never, ever get a candidate you like. Instead, I suggest you think of it like picking a city bus. Is this one going where I want to go? Probably not but it's closer. And unfortunately, in this metaphor, you have to get on a bus anyway. "Sitting this one out" just means getting on someone else's bus.
It's okay, when the Nazis come, they'll realize that he is a purist and will not do anything bad to him.