This horseshit again? Physical product available for independent analysis, or it didn't happen.
It's not like the Chinese are famous for lying about the specs on things they manufacture or anything. Every week we hear about some Chinese company poised to "revolutionize" the EV with pie-in-the-sky range figures and yet the market continues to remain resolutely un-revolutionized.
And as usual, this article harps on "range" as if that's not an easily fudged figure. The real numbers we need to see are watts per volume, or watts per mass. And number of charge cycles tolerated, and how many before it loses what percentage of capacity. Any idiot can claim to make a 1,300 mile, 2,000 mile, 5,000 mile, 1,000,000 mile battery pack -- just make the pack bigger, or the vehicle lighter, or both. That tells us nothing meaningful whatsoever about the battery chemistry itself. Advertising us what hypothetical ranges someone thinks a pack made of these "could" build is meaningless. We could build a 1300 mile battery pack right now with LiFePo cells if we wanted to, via the simple expedient of filling a dump truck with the things.
My guess is it's just a car with a battery 5 times bigger than their comparison vehicle, can't do over 30, go up a hill, or pass any safety standards.
All the while lobbying anti EV policies around the world.
That's because Toyota is trying to put all their eggs in the hydrogen basket. Toyota is the only brand that really has a functional consumer-available hydrogen fuel cell car and I think they're stuck in sunk cost fallacy mode with that technology.
If there was serious investment in green energy. There would be large spikes in power, to have reliable baseline to power the grid. This excess power needs to go somewhere. Hydrogen seems a good solution. It takes free electricity and turns it into a sellable product. One that can be sold at a much higher cost than storing the energy in a battery and selling it back to the grid. It may be able to ease natural gas transitions as well.
The big issue is no country is taking low carbon power generation seriously. Toyota is assuming governments will be responsible now. EVs are being sold because performance, running cost and individuals environmentally attitude is better. Hydrogen requires governments to change their attitude.
Exactly. It’s like an article I saw about some new internet tech that was “X times faster than broadband”. Broadband is a type of transmission using multiple frequency carrier waves to transmit data. It ain’t a speed.
Wh/kg or yes maybe volume Wh/cm^3…
The only other thing I’d care about it charge speed. Maybe it doesn’t last as long but I can fully charge in 10 seconds? Yeah I’m interested. Hell I’ve never had a car yet get the estimated miles per gallon on the sticker. It’s all bistromathics as far as I’m concerned.
I wish more forms of travel were based solely on bistromathics.
The real numbers we need to see are watts per volume, or watts per mass
You have to chase it down, following the link to electrek.co, but then it says:
"the prototype cells house an energy density of 720 Wh/kg"
(of course, I'm just stating what is claimed, no idea how true)
Chase it down? It says 720 Wh/kg in the thumbnail image.
You're right, I didn't see it! I just saw a bunch of chinese writings, which I cannot read, so didn't bother trying to read even the only thing I could 😅
Yeah, I'm really sick of the hype train, so that was the only info I looked for. Honestly, I was a little surprised it was that easy to find, and that is still no guarantee it's accurate.
Battery costs keep falling while quality rises. As volumes increased, battery costs plummeted and energy density — a key metric of a battery's quality — rose steadily. Over the past 30 years, battery costs have fallen by a dramatic 99 percent; meanwhile, the density of top-tier cells has risen fivefold
...
With regards to anodes, a number of chemistry changes have the potential to improve energy density (watt-hour per kilogram, or Wh/kg). For example, silicon can be used to replace all or some of the graphite in the anode in order to make it lighter and thus increase the energy density. Silicon-doped graphite already entered the market a few years ago, and now around 30% of anodes contain silicon. Another option is innovative lithium metal anodes, which could yield even greater energy density when they become commercially available.
What's more, the Chinese market is both the leading producer and consumer of battery technology. So its weird to reflexively doubt that a Chinese firm would release a new higher-efficiency battery design.
Given that this is a prototype, its entirely unclear if the model is cost-efficient to mass manufacture or efficiently scalable based on available resources. But I'm hard pressed to discount the claim on its face simply because its got "China" in the headline.
I would instantly discount it based purely on not having third party verification or enough details for a third party to replicate.
Racist see China did something good and have to go out of their way to shit on China.
I think you are seeing this as racism when it is just some old good skepticism about a country that is famous for faking everything.
Maybe they really done what they say, or maybe it is just some proof of concept that need to be ported, if possible, to a viable product stage or maybe it is just a fake, we will see.
Famous for faking everything is western propaganda
Its not even like "China" invented a new battery tech. It's some battery plant in China which is the place where most batteries are created that's innovated on a design.
There are battery plants in Atlanta, Georgia and Heide, Germany who are pursuing similar advancements. They just don't have the money or the manpower equal to their Chinese peers.
If that's true, 1300 mile range isn't the big deal. Going much over 400mi is pointless if we build proper charging infrastructure. Use wh/kg advancements to reduce weight, nor increase range.
The big thing is that we can build fully electric airplanes with that kind of wh/kg.
Big if, though. Batteries have been improving by 5-8% per year, and while we're not close to theoretical limits yet, this would represent an unprecedented leap all at once. That claim needs more to back it up than a press release.
This horseshit again? Physical product available for independent analysis, or it didn't happen.
It's not like the Chinese are famous for lying about the specs on things they manufacture or anything. Every week we hear about some Chinese company poised to "revolutionize" the EV with pie-in-the-sky range figures and yet the market continues to remain resolutely un-revolutionized.
And as usual, this article harps on "range" as if that's not an easily fudged figure. The real numbers we need to see are watts per volume, or watts per mass. And number of charge cycles tolerated, and how many before it loses what percentage of capacity. Any idiot can claim to make a 1,300 mile, 2,000 mile, 5,000 mile, 1,000,000 mile battery pack -- just make the pack bigger, or the vehicle lighter, or both. That tells us nothing meaningful whatsoever about the battery chemistry itself. Advertising us what hypothetical ranges someone thinks a pack made of these "could" build is meaningless. We could build a 1300 mile battery pack right now with LiFePo cells if we wanted to, via the simple expedient of filling a dump truck with the things.
My guess is it's just a car with a battery 5 times bigger than their comparison vehicle, can't do over 30, go up a hill, or pass any safety standards.
Or it's fictional.
Well, Toyota seems to be promising something around 700-800 miles range with solid state lithium battery tech, but as you say, the proof is in the pudding, and the pudding isn't ready yet.
Not Toyotas first time either Toyota has said their solid state batteries are just around the corner.
http://www.electric-vehiclenews.com/2010/12/toyota-announces-4-layer-all-solid.html?m=1
In 2010...
All the while lobbying anti EV policies around the world.
That's because Toyota is trying to put all their eggs in the hydrogen basket. Toyota is the only brand that really has a functional consumer-available hydrogen fuel cell car and I think they're stuck in sunk cost fallacy mode with that technology.
If there was serious investment in green energy. There would be large spikes in power, to have reliable baseline to power the grid. This excess power needs to go somewhere. Hydrogen seems a good solution. It takes free electricity and turns it into a sellable product. One that can be sold at a much higher cost than storing the energy in a battery and selling it back to the grid. It may be able to ease natural gas transitions as well.
The big issue is no country is taking low carbon power generation seriously. Toyota is assuming governments will be responsible now. EVs are being sold because performance, running cost and individuals environmentally attitude is better. Hydrogen requires governments to change their attitude.
Exactly. It’s like an article I saw about some new internet tech that was “X times faster than broadband”. Broadband is a type of transmission using multiple frequency carrier waves to transmit data. It ain’t a speed.
Wh/kg or yes maybe volume Wh/cm^3…
The only other thing I’d care about it charge speed. Maybe it doesn’t last as long but I can fully charge in 10 seconds? Yeah I’m interested. Hell I’ve never had a car yet get the estimated miles per gallon on the sticker. It’s all bistromathics as far as I’m concerned.
I wish more forms of travel were based solely on bistromathics.
You have to chase it down, following the link to electrek.co, but then it says: "the prototype cells house an energy density of 720 Wh/kg"
(of course, I'm just stating what is claimed, no idea how true)
Chase it down? It says 720 Wh/kg in the thumbnail image.
You're right, I didn't see it! I just saw a bunch of chinese writings, which I cannot read, so didn't bother trying to read even the only thing I could 😅
Yeah, I'm really sick of the hype train, so that was the only info I looked for. Honestly, I was a little surprised it was that easy to find, and that is still no guarantee it's accurate.
Battery density has been improving steadily for the last three decades.
...
What's more, the Chinese market is both the leading producer and consumer of battery technology. So its weird to reflexively doubt that a Chinese firm would release a new higher-efficiency battery design.
Given that this is a prototype, its entirely unclear if the model is cost-efficient to mass manufacture or efficiently scalable based on available resources. But I'm hard pressed to discount the claim on its face simply because its got "China" in the headline.
I would instantly discount it based purely on not having third party verification or enough details for a third party to replicate.
Racist see China did something good and have to go out of their way to shit on China.
I think you are seeing this as racism when it is just some old good skepticism about a country that is famous for faking everything.
Maybe they really done what they say, or maybe it is just some proof of concept that need to be ported, if possible, to a viable product stage or maybe it is just a fake, we will see.
Famous for faking everything is western propaganda
Its not even like "China" invented a new battery tech. It's some battery plant in China which is the place where most batteries are created that's innovated on a design.
There are battery plants in Atlanta, Georgia and Heide, Germany who are pursuing similar advancements. They just don't have the money or the manpower equal to their Chinese peers.
If that's true, 1300 mile range isn't the big deal. Going much over 400mi is pointless if we build proper charging infrastructure. Use wh/kg advancements to reduce weight, nor increase range.
The big thing is that we can build fully electric airplanes with that kind of wh/kg.
Big if, though. Batteries have been improving by 5-8% per year, and while we're not close to theoretical limits yet, this would represent an unprecedented leap all at once. That claim needs more to back it up than a press release.
Thank you for typing out my brain squiggles.