History will paint Biden very kindly. This speech will be the example of a humble, good man.
This is like calling a school bus driver a hero because at the last possible second he hit the brakes instead of intentionally driving the bus off a cliff.
It's good he stepped aside, but he waited till pretty much the last second and clearly didn't want to hit the brakes.
In that analogy, the heroes are all the people that got him to hit the brakes.
I didn't call him a hero, though, I called him humble and good. In your zeal to urinate on corn flakes, you forgot basic reading skills.
Good for being complicit in the Genocide of Palestinians?
Good for stepping down for the sake of his country. Not good enough for certain internet pundits, but I think he'll get over that.
If he's "humble and good" he'd have stepped down a year ago so voters could have a real primary and not a coronation.
Before doubling down, it might be wise to know what you are doubling down on. Aggressive foolishness is still foolishness.
i remember when my debate strategy was yelling and stomping my feet. then i stopped being a toddler
And that's a good thing. It's better to figure it out before you Clinton yourself into the history books.
What does that even mean?
It sounds like you're just trying to make an insult that won't get removed for being an insult...
That's an interesting analogy because objectively the bus driver is a hero for stopping a bus full of kids hurtling off a cliff.
It's a poor analogy because there's no one on the bus trying to grab the wheel and hit the gas by force.
This ain't the movie Speed?
If he wasn't the one flooring it headed right to the cliff...
And if he didn't take months of people telling him to hit the brakes while he screamed back only "Lord God" can stop the bus
Absolutely nothing was stopping him from remaining in the race until the convention and becoming the official nominee. That was a viable path forward, if he had wanted to choose it. That he did not, deserves acknowledgement and respect.
I agree in principle with what you're saying.
However, a sitting president is not entitled to the nomination. It's happened before where a sitting president is denied a nomination for a second term, and it's been given to someone else in the party instead.
If it had gone that way with Biden though, I think the optics would have been so bad that there would be no hopes of salvaging the election though, so it's still praiseworthy that he dropped.
He was not going to be the nominee due to being the sitting president. He was going to be the nominee due to defeating his main rival "uncommitted" in the primaries, along with Rep. Dean Philips and Marianne Williamson.
Delegates are bound to support in all good conscience the person for whom their primaries results reflect.
This bizzare turn of phrase has been largely been untested in the courts... But if, in good conscience, the delegates believe that the results of the primary were for the candidate who was best poised to defeat Trump (as in, they're not supporting Biden specifically as much as they are against Trump, for example) then they could argue that based on events that have occured since the primaries that they are in good conscience representing those wishes.
So, I dunno. I'm very glad Biden took the high road here, but I am unconvinced that this was truely set in stone. This is the exact justification for having delegates choose the nominee in the first place; that in certain critical conditions they can act in good faith.
I think that would be an extremely minority opinion far outside of the moderate dem mainstream. Since the electors get specifically chosen by the winning campaign, expecting some kind of broad revolt out of them is very wishful thinking.
Additionally, Biden was polling very close to Trump during a time when dems have been outperforming polls in our recent elections. Someone would have to be fairly ignorant of the actual voting results of recent races to actually think Biden genuinely had no chance. I do not think very many chosen delegates are ignorant of these election results, unlike more casually-engaged citizens online.
while technically true, had uncommited gotten more than 2 weeks to campaign and made it onto every ballot, the dems might not have had to modify the ticket this late.
Yeah, I think there's not nearly enough single-issue Palestine voters to make that happen. Also, it was a write-in campaign, it was never "on" a ballot anywhere.
"uncommitted" / "no preference" were explicitly on some state ballots and palestine is a bigger culminating issue than people give credit for. "none of the above" running a distant, but meaningful, second is not encouraging.
regardless of your thoughts on biden in 2020, a diminished biden was a disaster for the Democrats and (potentially) the country in 2024.
No, not really. Single issue voters are fairly unusual in the dem party. There are always some, no question, but the very small size of the peace protests compared to those during, say, the Vietnam War era demonstrates a fairly niche issue imo. While most dems believe in peace for Palestine, relatively few would rank it among their top issues.
Regarding Biden's diminishment, delegation is the most important skill a leader can possess. It is not a leaders responsibility to make all the decisions, but to organize and provide vision for a group of people that can accomplish far more than any individual. Many people past their youth understand this, due to direct life experience in the broader world. Biden's diminishment would have had minimal impact on his actual presidency. At the polls, however, yes it definitely was a concern, eventually leading to him dropping out after all. The idea he actually could not win was very, very overblown though. He was still in the running. I think the broader concern was his impact on down-ballot races.
Regarding uncommitted actually being on some ballots, it seems you're right. Thank you for the correction, that's actually sort of funny. lol
thanks for the good convo. ignoring any other problems (including palestine being much more than just "single issue")
He was still in the running. I think the broader concern was his impact on down-ballot races.
given the importance of controlling as many branches as possible to make the vitally important needed changes... isnt that innately disqualifying?
No, not to a more traditionally-minded dem. You could say that's a mistaken thought, that's my opinion personally. But it reminds me of a democratic leader reportedly saying he was resigning himself to a Trump presidency. It's common among dems to play with "honor" so much they lose, the much-debated "they go low, we go high" philosophy.
He could have shrugged it off like RBG did and fuck everyone for generations. Better late than never.
Better late than never.
Obviously.
But if a guy has a gun next to your head and ends up not pulling the trigger, are you gonna talk about how good your kidnapper was?
You still got kidnapped, and you still had a gun to your head.
Why thank the person who caused the problem and not the hostage negotiaters who got you released?
Maybe the timing was to ensure an albatross like JD was firmly tied around his neck.
So you think Biden and the DNC colluded and he always meant to stand down?
He just waited until there wasn't enough time for a primary so Kamala could get it?
Don't get me wrong, she's got a better shot than Joe. But if you legitimately think they planned this timing...
That's not a good look.
Especially for voters in NH who had their primary delegates stolen.
Or he waited until the Trump campaign sunk millions of dollars into a strategy that has now been completely subverted and which they have no real way out of without a massive pivot like dropping Trump which isn't going to happen. If that's the case, I'd call it a pretty savvy move.
But that still took the decision of who the nominee should be out of the hands of voters.
If by that you mean "they followed the same standard procedure that's been in place for the entire history of the United States" then yes, exactly.
I don't think the timing was planned in advance.
But I think he was getting tired, probably had enough commitments for support to Kamala (he probably gave everybody who demanded he steps down an ultimatum, support her or he stays), and decided there wasn't going to be a better time to do it. Seems like he was right
History will paint Biden very kindly. This speech will be the example of a humble, good man.
This is like calling a school bus driver a hero because at the last possible second he hit the brakes instead of intentionally driving the bus off a cliff.
It's good he stepped aside, but he waited till pretty much the last second and clearly didn't want to hit the brakes.
In that analogy, the heroes are all the people that got him to hit the brakes.
I didn't call him a hero, though, I called him humble and good. In your zeal to urinate on corn flakes, you forgot basic reading skills.
Good for being complicit in the Genocide of Palestinians?
Good for stepping down for the sake of his country. Not good enough for certain internet pundits, but I think he'll get over that.
If he's "humble and good" he'd have stepped down a year ago so voters could have a real primary and not a coronation.
Before doubling down, it might be wise to know what you are doubling down on. Aggressive foolishness is still foolishness.
i remember when my debate strategy was yelling and stomping my feet. then i stopped being a toddler
And that's a good thing. It's better to figure it out before you Clinton yourself into the history books.
What does that even mean?
It sounds like you're just trying to make an insult that won't get removed for being an insult...
I'm not here to slap fight, find someone else.
Lmao, since when the fuck was there a coronation?
That's an interesting analogy because objectively the bus driver is a hero for stopping a bus full of kids hurtling off a cliff.
It's a poor analogy because there's no one on the bus trying to grab the wheel and hit the gas by force.
This ain't the movie Speed?
If he wasn't the one flooring it headed right to the cliff...
And if he didn't take months of people telling him to hit the brakes while he screamed back only "Lord God" can stop the bus
Absolutely nothing was stopping him from remaining in the race until the convention and becoming the official nominee. That was a viable path forward, if he had wanted to choose it. That he did not, deserves acknowledgement and respect.
I agree in principle with what you're saying.
However, a sitting president is not entitled to the nomination. It's happened before where a sitting president is denied a nomination for a second term, and it's been given to someone else in the party instead.
If it had gone that way with Biden though, I think the optics would have been so bad that there would be no hopes of salvaging the election though, so it's still praiseworthy that he dropped.
He was not going to be the nominee due to being the sitting president. He was going to be the nominee due to defeating his main rival "uncommitted" in the primaries, along with Rep. Dean Philips and Marianne Williamson.
Delegates are bound to support in all good conscience the person for whom their primaries results reflect.
This bizzare turn of phrase has been largely been untested in the courts... But if, in good conscience, the delegates believe that the results of the primary were for the candidate who was best poised to defeat Trump (as in, they're not supporting Biden specifically as much as they are against Trump, for example) then they could argue that based on events that have occured since the primaries that they are in good conscience representing those wishes.
So, I dunno. I'm very glad Biden took the high road here, but I am unconvinced that this was truely set in stone. This is the exact justification for having delegates choose the nominee in the first place; that in certain critical conditions they can act in good faith.
I think that would be an extremely minority opinion far outside of the moderate dem mainstream. Since the electors get specifically chosen by the winning campaign, expecting some kind of broad revolt out of them is very wishful thinking.
Additionally, Biden was polling very close to Trump during a time when dems have been outperforming polls in our recent elections. Someone would have to be fairly ignorant of the actual voting results of recent races to actually think Biden genuinely had no chance. I do not think very many chosen delegates are ignorant of these election results, unlike more casually-engaged citizens online.
while technically true, had uncommited gotten more than 2 weeks to campaign and made it onto every ballot, the dems might not have had to modify the ticket this late.
Yeah, I think there's not nearly enough single-issue Palestine voters to make that happen. Also, it was a write-in campaign, it was never "on" a ballot anywhere.
"uncommitted" / "no preference" were explicitly on some state ballots and palestine is a bigger culminating issue than people give credit for. "none of the above" running a distant, but meaningful, second is not encouraging.
regardless of your thoughts on biden in 2020, a diminished biden was a disaster for the Democrats and (potentially) the country in 2024.
No, not really. Single issue voters are fairly unusual in the dem party. There are always some, no question, but the very small size of the peace protests compared to those during, say, the Vietnam War era demonstrates a fairly niche issue imo. While most dems believe in peace for Palestine, relatively few would rank it among their top issues.
Regarding Biden's diminishment, delegation is the most important skill a leader can possess. It is not a leaders responsibility to make all the decisions, but to organize and provide vision for a group of people that can accomplish far more than any individual. Many people past their youth understand this, due to direct life experience in the broader world. Biden's diminishment would have had minimal impact on his actual presidency. At the polls, however, yes it definitely was a concern, eventually leading to him dropping out after all. The idea he actually could not win was very, very overblown though. He was still in the running. I think the broader concern was his impact on down-ballot races.
Regarding uncommitted actually being on some ballots, it seems you're right. Thank you for the correction, that's actually sort of funny. lol
thanks for the good convo. ignoring any other problems (including palestine being much more than just "single issue")
given the importance of controlling as many branches as possible to make the vitally important needed changes... isnt that innately disqualifying?
No, not to a more traditionally-minded dem. You could say that's a mistaken thought, that's my opinion personally. But it reminds me of a democratic leader reportedly saying he was resigning himself to a Trump presidency. It's common among dems to play with "honor" so much they lose, the much-debated "they go low, we go high" philosophy.
He could have shrugged it off like RBG did and fuck everyone for generations. Better late than never.
Obviously.
But if a guy has a gun next to your head and ends up not pulling the trigger, are you gonna talk about how good your kidnapper was?
You still got kidnapped, and you still had a gun to your head.
Why thank the person who caused the problem and not the hostage negotiaters who got you released?
Maybe the timing was to ensure an albatross like JD was firmly tied around his neck.
So you think Biden and the DNC colluded and he always meant to stand down?
He just waited until there wasn't enough time for a primary so Kamala could get it?
Don't get me wrong, she's got a better shot than Joe. But if you legitimately think they planned this timing...
That's not a good look.
Especially for voters in NH who had their primary delegates stolen.
Or he waited until the Trump campaign sunk millions of dollars into a strategy that has now been completely subverted and which they have no real way out of without a massive pivot like dropping Trump which isn't going to happen. If that's the case, I'd call it a pretty savvy move.
But that still took the decision of who the nominee should be out of the hands of voters.
If by that you mean "they followed the same standard procedure that's been in place for the entire history of the United States" then yes, exactly.
I don't think the timing was planned in advance.
But I think he was getting tired, probably had enough commitments for support to Kamala (he probably gave everybody who demanded he steps down an ultimatum, support her or he stays), and decided there wasn't going to be a better time to do it. Seems like he was right
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